VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

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VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by YoUDeeMan »

For some on-line poster, this guy is pretty savvy. :nod:

"While American politicians and pundits have blamed the ascendance of ISIS on former Iraqi president Nouri al-Maliki and Assad — or on the removal of American troops from Iraq — the DIA report reminds us that the key event in the rise of ISIS was the corresponding rise of the insurgency in Syria. Brad Hoff of the Levant Report, the first journalist to analyze the DIA report, says it shows that “A nascent Islamic State became a reality only with the rise of the Syrian insurgency . . . there is no mention of U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq as a catalyst.”

Maliki warned that the war in Syria could engulf Iraq, yet the United States and its allies kept supporting the insurgency. The American bombing of ISIS, relatively light and sporadic, has only intensified the belief of many Iraqis that the United States doesn’t want to defeat the group.

According to the official storyline, the US has sought to weaken ISIS in Syria by supporting “moderate” rebels. (President Obama has faced constant criticism for not arming opposition groups in Syria despite constantly arming opposition groups.)

The decision of the US to train its own force was an acknowledgement that it’d been unable to find moderate groups to support. Former US Ambassador Robert Ford has admitted as much, saying that “for a long time, we have looked the other way” as US-backed groups worked with al-Qaeda’s affiliate, the Islamic State of Iraq spinoff al-Nusra Front. Many “moderate” rebels — “entire CIA-backed rebel units” — have joined al-Nusra Front and ISIS. Earlier this year, the main US-backed group, Harakat al-Hazm, couldn’t beat al-Nusra Front — so it joined them.

The 2012 DIA document confirms that reactionaries dominated the opposition from early on. “The Salafist, The Muslim Brotherhood, and AQI are the major forces driving the insurgency in Syria,” it says. It also notes that “AQI supported the Syrian opposition from the beginning.”

This is the long-obscured truth that the DIA report underscores: that after the initial stage of the war in Syria, simply to support the war on the Syrian government was to help ISIS.

American complicity in the rise of ISIS would hardly be an anomaly. At various times since World War II—most infamously in Afghanistan in the ’70s and ’80s — the United States has armed, allied with, or otherwise strengthened jihadists (and their precursors) for the purpose of undermining its more immediate and authentic adversaries.

And one need not consult history for an antecedent. Right now, as its effort to build a force from scratch founders, the United States is encouraging its proxies in Syria to work with al-Nusra Front and has green-lighted a new coordinated effort of Gulf countries and Turkey to arm an opposition coalition that includes al-Nusra Front and other reactionary groups.

If the United States really wanted to defeat ISIS and al-Qaeda, it would stop empowering them."


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/i ... 50325.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


It is Vietnam all over again. :ohno:

if you haven't read Stanley Karnow's, Vietnam: A History. The First Complete Account of Vietnam at War (a great book, BTW), then all you have to know is that we do not learn from our own failures.

We are trying hard to find a group of people in Syria (and the middle East) that we can trust to do things, "our way," and everyone we train and try to put in power turns out to be a power hungry clown who turns their back on us and tries to annihilate the other so-called moderates, or they simply hitch themselves to someone on the other side. :lol:

It is an utter failure to understand that the people we are working with don't think like us...Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...hell, we're screwing up almost everywhere we go. :dunce:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Chizzang »

As long as we are entirely motivated by money (or the things that make money)
we will predictably fail in the Middle East - Money drives every single maneuver we execute
Yet we continue to disguise our motives behind "freedom" and "Democracy" and "help"

We have no interest in helping the people of the middle east get what they want
We do not understand them - and they do not understand us
we are as far apart at our cores as cultures and philosophies can be apart and still be recognized as human

The charade will continue
All of our wars are bankers and wall street wars at their very core

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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Iraq: :lol: :lol:

"The U.S. decided that backing al-Maliki, even with his faults, was the best chance for stability. This wasn't something the military supported.

"The ambassador at the time, Chris Hill, had no experience of Iraq and didn't really want to be there."

Sky writes that Hill spent most of his time trying to make the embassy in Baghdad "normal." He even brought in rolls of sod to make a lawn where he could practise lacrosse. :wtf: :rofl:

"General Odierno was adamant that the U.S. should protect the political process, allow the winning group 30 days to form the government. Hill didn't have the same feel for Iraq and he said 'Maliki is our man, the strong man the country needs.' In the end Biden went with the ambassador's recommendation."

Sky believes it was a huge mistake.

"Maliki's politics were poisonous," she said.

Sky was disheartened as she watched the Iraqi people lose confidence in the country's leaders, especially groups such as Sunni Muslims, who felt there was no place for them and no chance to be part of the government.

"If you were Sunni, you made the unfortunate decision that supporting ISIS was a better option than supporting the central government in Baghdad," she says."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/emma-sky-w ... -1.3196444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yup...eerily familiar. :nod:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by houndawg »

... psychopathic elite sells weapons to both sides, manufactures public consent wih their corporate-owned media.

Bidniz as usual. :coffee:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Cluck U wrote: It is an utter failure to understand that the people we are working with don't think like us...Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...hell, we're screwing up almost everywhere we go. :dunce:
At least we are consistent.


Right?


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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by CAA Flagship »

Meh, the US does have a history of success in helping/influencing other countries to move towards democracy. But yeah, some of the Middle East is just not ready for it.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

CAA Flagship wrote:Meh, the US does have a history of success in helping/influencing other countries to move towards democracy. But yeah, all of the Middle East is just not ready for it.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by YoUDeeMan »

CAA Flagship wrote:Meh, the US does have a history of success in helping/influencing other countries to move towards democracy.
For example...central America? :lol:

Southeast Asia? :lol:

North Africa? :lol:

Most of Africa? :lol:

Yup, just about anywhere we go we leave little nuggets of Democracy behind.

Well, behind bars or behind a small army of dictators. :nod:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by JohnStOnge »

If nothing else this is not Vietnam because the enemy here is not as tough as either the North Vietnamese or the Viet Cong. I'm talking about their actual military capability. They're just not. If we were to decide to stomp ISIS we would stomp ISIS no problem.

Now, we might say it IS like Vietnam by virtue of the fact that we are facing an enemy that can't defeat us militarily but we might lose because we don't have the public will to fight.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by YoUDeeMan »

JohnStOnge wrote:If nothing else this is not Vietnam because the enemy here is not as tough as either the North Vietnamese or the Viet Cong. I'm talking about their actual military capability. They're just not. If we were to decide to stomp ISIS we would stomp ISIS no problem.

Now, we might say it IS like Vietnam by virtue of the fact that we are facing an enemy that can't defeat us militarily but we might lose because we don't have the public will to fight.
Not as tough as the Viet Cong? These ISIS guys are willing to blow themselves up, and their children, in order to kill their enemies. How tough do you want them to be? :suspicious:

Oh, wait, you are talking about military capability again.

"In July 1974, Harry Summers returned to Vietnam as chief of the Negotiations Division of the Four Party Joint Military Team (FPJMT). The main task of the U.S. delegation was to resolve the status of those Americans still listed as missing. During one of his liaison trips to Hanoi, Harry had his now-famous exchange with his North Vietnamese counterpart. When Harry told him, "You know, you never beat us on the battlefield," Colonel Tu responded, "That may be so, but it is also irrelevant."'

http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/SummersObitText.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Military capability means little in a conflict where we are seen as foreign occupiers.

In Vietnam, we always thought we could inflict enough pain on the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong that they would rather sue for peace than suffer more losses. That was a mistake. They didn't care how many people they lost...they were in it for the long haul. Ho Chi Minn said we could kill 10 of his men for every man we lost and he'd still win...and he was right. Only the Vietnamese could save themselves...and the people in the south were not up for the fight. Hell, the South Vietnamese governments we supported were simply one corrupt clown posse after another. We could not find a competent leader that was honest and who had the support of the people. Instead, the South broke down into factional fighting that never ended...even though most factions didn't want the communists to win.

We are in the same situation in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc...it is their land and they will be there in the end. And they will fight us, and/or use us, until we leave.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Cluck U wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote: We are in the same situation in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc...it is their land and they will be there in the end. And they will fight us, and/or use us, until we leave.

This is one of the most difficult motivators to combat. Like the Americans in 1776, we were fighting for our homes while the British and German mercenaries were fighting for what? King & Country? Pay? Look at how determined the Germans and Japanese were in 1945. I don't even know what the hell we're still doing over there. Creating more enemies? More Osama bin Ladens? Allowing the ISIS disease to spread which is murdering people, destroying sites of religious and historical importance? I thought our Nobel Peace Prize President was going to restore our reputation and halt all of this? Why haven't they been invited over for a summit? The Bean Pie Summit?


At this point, we should leave. We have nothing to gain. Leave and let it implode OR Israel destroys the region.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Ibanez wrote:I thought our Nobel Peace Prize President was going to restore our reputation and halt all of this? Why haven't they been invited over for a summit?
:nod:

Obama should invite them over for a beer and some bacon in the Rose Garden. :thumb:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Cluck U wrote:
Ibanez wrote:I thought our Nobel Peace Prize President was going to restore our reputation and halt all of this? Why haven't they been invited over for a summit?
:nod:

Obama should invite them over for a beer and some bacon in the Rose Garden. :thumb:
I suggest a microbrew

http://www.holycitybrewing.com/beer/notorious-pig" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For the eventual full production batch, this meant 40 pounds of thoroughly flat-top cooked bacon, as well as bacon-grease-soaked wood chips, going into the fermenter.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Grizalltheway »

Ibanez wrote:
Cluck U wrote:

This is one of the most difficult motivators to combat. Like the Americans in 1776, we were fighting for our homes while the British and German mercenaries were fighting for what? King & Country? Pay? Look at how determined the Germans and Japanese were in 1945. I don't even know what the hell we're still doing over there. Creating more enemies? More Osama bin Ladens? Allowing the ISIS disease to spread which is murdering people, destroying sites of religious and historical importance? I thought our Nobel Peace Prize President was going to restore our reputation and halt all of this? Why haven't they been invited over for a summit? The Bean Pie Summit?


At this point, we should leave. We have nothing to gain. Leave and let it implode OR Israel destroys the region.
If Israel is actually capable of doing that, why do they need us to hold their hand on everything?
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Ibanez wrote:

This is one of the most difficult motivators to combat. Like the Americans in 1776, we were fighting for our homes while the British and German mercenaries were fighting for what? King & Country? Pay? Look at how determined the Germans and Japanese were in 1945. I don't even know what the hell we're still doing over there. Creating more enemies? More Osama bin Ladens? Allowing the ISIS disease to spread which is murdering people, destroying sites of religious and historical importance? I thought our Nobel Peace Prize President was going to restore our reputation and halt all of this? Why haven't they been invited over for a summit? The Bean Pie Summit?


At this point, we should leave. We have nothing to gain. Leave and let it implode OR Israel destroys the region.
If Israel is actually capable of doing that, why do they need us to hold their hand on everything?
Is this a troll post? :suspicious:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Grizalltheway »

Ibanez wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote: If Israel is actually capable of doing that, why do they need us to hold their hand on everything?
Is this a troll post? :suspicious:
No. Answer the question. :roll:
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
Is this a troll post? :suspicious:
No. Answer the question. :roll:
Image

We give them $$$$. I'll find the figures, but at one point our financial aid was equal to about 25% of their defense budget. They don't want to stop the gravy train. They get so much war material from us. I don't know if it carries much weight anymore, but they also a have a very powerful ally in us. I listened to an interview with Bibi earlier in the year and he stated that after 9/11, he wanted to attack Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan and didn't because Bush threatened to postpone payments and sales of other weapon systems.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Grizalltheway »

Ibanez wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
No. Answer the question. :roll:
Image

We give them $$$$. I'll find the figures, but at one point our financial aid was equal to about 25% of their defense budget. They don't want to stop the gravy train. They get so much war material from us. I don't know if it carries much weight anymore, but they also a have a very powerful ally in us. I listened to an interview with Bibi earlier in the year and he stated that after 9/11, he wanted to attack Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan and didn't because Bush threatened to postpone payments and sales of other weapon systems.
But in your post that I responded to, you said that we should leave the region to its own devices, and that Israel would potentially destroy everyone else...and I'm saying they'd be screwed without our help. Capiche?
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Ibanez wrote:Image

We give them $$$$. I'll find the figures, but at one point our financial aid was equal to about 25% of their defense budget. They don't want to stop the gravy train. They get so much war material from us. I don't know if it carries much weight anymore, but they also a have a very powerful ally in us. I listened to an interview with Bibi earlier in the year and he stated that after 9/11, he wanted to attack Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan and didn't because Bush threatened to postpone payments and sales of other weapon systems.
But in your post that I responded to, you said that we should leave the region to its own devices, and that Israel would potentially destroy everyone else...and I'm saying they'd be screwed without our help. Capiche?
You asked why they needed us. You asked a question, you didn't make a statement of opinion (or fact).

Israel has the capability, and eventually they are going to snap.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Grizalltheway »

Ibanez wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
But in your post that I responded to, you said that we should leave the region to its own devices, and that Israel would potentially destroy everyone else...and I'm saying they'd be screwed without our help. Capiche?
You asked why they needed us. You asked a question, you didn't make a statement of opinion (or fact).

Israel has the capability, and eventually they are going to snap.
Rhetorical question.

And now you're back to saying they DO have the capability to take on the rest of the ME without our money or weapons? :?
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Chizzang »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
You asked why they needed us. You asked a question, you didn't make a statement of opinion (or fact).

Israel has the capability, and eventually they are going to snap.
Rhetorical question.

And now you're back to saying they DO have the capability to take on the rest of the ME without our money or weapons? :?

You two kids need to get a room...
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Grizalltheway »

Chizzang wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Rhetorical question.

And now you're back to saying they DO have the capability to take on the rest of the ME without our money or weapons? :?

You two kids need to get a room...
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by JohnStOnge »

Guys, ISIS is not as tough an opponent as the opponents we faced in the Vietnam war were. If we put the kind of effort we put into the Vietnam war into crushing ISIS ISIS would be crushed in short order. I think you guys all would agree with that if you think about it for a little while.

Yes there might be something called "ISIS" that would persist and do car bombings and such. But in terms of being some kind of viable military force to do the kinds of things they're doing now they'd be crushed.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
You asked why they needed us. You asked a question, you didn't make a statement of opinion (or fact).

Israel has the capability, and eventually they are going to snap.
Rhetorical question.

And now you're back to saying they DO have the capability to take on the rest of the ME without our money or weapons? :?
I think you're confusing yourself.

I'm saying we provide weapons or arms and Israel has proven shy in acting out because it wouldn't be good for the US-Israel relationship.

I never said they didn't have the capability.
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Re: VIETNAM, Part Deux (really, Part Duh)

Post by Ibanez »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

You two kids need to get a room...
I haven't seen this much back and forth & in and out since Ursus sent me that 90's Shania Twain GIF

:ohno:
My response to you would be: blow it out your freshly-bleached a-hole.
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I hear it's dyed fire engine red.
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