Murder Hubs - Chicago - NY - Baltimore

[Grizalltheway]

Again: "gun ownership doesn't correlate well with homicide rates. "As examples, California (gun ownership at 21.3%) and Alaska (gun ownership at 57.8%) have the same murder rate...New York (ownership 18.0%) has the same murder rate as West Virginia (ownership 55.4%)."

higher legal gun ownership rates do not mean its safer...
as this thread implies

And wrong again

As usual, you're big on telling people they're wrong, but not attempting to explain why you're right.

I guess that's too much to ask of that vodka addled pea brain.

[BDKJMU]

http://newyorkcityguns.com/getting-a-ny ... un-permit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Okay so that site says:
once I've completed the process I can buy a handgun every 90 days forever and ever afterwards
However the initial process is lengthy

I don;t see how this infringes on the 2nd amendment "well regulated militia"
The 2nd amendment does not call for an unregulated armed populace... it says: "Well regulated"



The NYC regulations seem a tad excessive in the 90 day processing
but after that you're done

In 18th century lingo 'well regulated' means proficient in marksmanship..

[BDKJMU]

You do have to admit that making the process as rigorous as they do serves as a disincentive for a lot of folks to purchase a handgun in NY. SC is on the other end of the spectrum and likely a little too lax IMO. With every handgun I've purchased here I'm in and out of the store in under 15 minutes which includes the background check.

Meanwhile, having to wait 3-8 months in NY while the bad guys just grab a stolen weapon in minutes seems a little rough. I'm all for not selling to crazy people, and maybe a cooling off period of some sort should be in place for that person that's buying legally to do something bad in the heat of the moment.

There really isn't anything against the second amendment in the hoops that NY requires gun buyers to jump through, but making it full of red tape like this dissuades a lot of people from making the purchase.

Fair enough... I don't disagree with that
But the 2nd amendment does say "Well Regulated" which implies what exactly..?
and don't all three cities listed in this thread as murder hubs

other article:
But she adds that gun ownership doesn't correlate well with homicide rates. "As examples, California (gun ownership at 21.3%) and Alaska (gun ownership at 57.8%) have the same murder rate...New York (ownership 18.0%) has the same murder rate as West Virginia (ownership 55.4%)."

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/new-yo ... on-6679088" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



on a national trend gun ownership is decreasing over time
numbers from the 60's to today show a decrease

Profficient in marksmanship..

[kalm]

Okay so that site says:
once I've completed the process I can buy a handgun every 90 days forever and ever afterwards
However the initial process is lengthy

I don;t see how this infringes on the 2nd amendment "well regulated militia"
The 2nd amendment does not call for an unregulated armed populace... it says: "Well regulated"



The NYC regulations seem a tad excessive in the 90 day processing
but after that you're done

In 18th century lingo 'well regulated' means proficient in marksmanship..

Does it?

Article One

Section 8

"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

And wrong again

As usual, you're big on telling people they're wrong, but not attempting to explain why you're right.

I guess that's too much to ask of that vodka addled pea brain.

It's not my job to educate the uneducated. Your public school system that I paid for already failed at that

[Chizzang]

As usual, you're big on telling people they're wrong, but not attempting to explain why you're right.

I guess that's too much to ask of that vodka addled pea brain.

It's not my job to educate the uneducated. Your public school system that I paid for already failed at that

But the statistics are actual reports (factual data)
That shows gun related violence DOES NOT go down when more legal citizens own guns



You're functioning under a myth
When you really should just examine the factual data - not hyperbole and conjecture



But I do support your cause
I want guys like YOU and Ursus to actually have concealed weapons
I think it is a NET / NET good thing for everybody

[clenz]

It's not my job to educate the uneducated. Your public school system that I paid for already failed at that

But the statistics are actual reports (factual data)
That shows gun related violence DOES NOT go down when more legal citizens own guns



You're functioning under a myth
When you really should just examine the factual data - not hyperbole and conjecture



But I do support your cause
I want guys like YOU and Ursus to actually have concealed weapons
I think it is a NET / NET good thing for everybody

Could we also look at this from the other side.

The numbers tell us it doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 legally own guns, the murder rate will be the same. If that's the case what are we actually stopping by having a process that takes 90-180 days to buy a gun legally? Legal gun ownership isn't the problem apparently.

[houndawg]

But the statistics are actual reports (factual data)
That shows gun related violence DOES NOT go down when more legal citizens own guns



You're functioning under a myth
When you really should just examine the factual data - not hyperbole and conjecture



But I do support your cause
I want guys like YOU and Ursus to actually have concealed weapons
I think it is a NET / NET good thing for everybody

Could we also look at this from the other side.

The numbers tell us it doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 legally own guns, the murder rate will be the same. If that's the case what are we actually stopping by having a process that takes 90-180 days to buy a gun legally? Legal gun ownership isn't the problem apparently.

You're probably keeping out some goobers that are too fvcking stupid to be running around armed. Fvcking halfwits have no idea of the kind of responsibility that comes with carrying a pistol.

[clenz]

Could we also look at this from the other side.

The numbers tell us it doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 legally own guns, the murder rate will be the same. If that's the case what are we actually stopping by having a process that takes 90-180 days to buy a gun legally? Legal gun ownership isn't the problem apparently.

You're probably keeping out some goobers that are too fvcking stupid to be running around armed. Fvcking halfwits have no idea of the kind of responsibility that comes with carrying a pistol.

Are these number not telling us that these goobers are getting their hands on guns regardless if the state lets them but it from a gun store or not?

[Chizzang]

But the statistics are actual reports (factual data)
That shows gun related violence DOES NOT go down when more legal citizens own guns



You're functioning under a myth
When you really should just examine the factual data - not hyperbole and conjecture



But I do support your cause
I want guys like YOU and Ursus to actually have concealed weapons
I think it is a NET / NET good thing for everybody

Could we also look at this from the other side.

The numbers tell us it doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 legally own guns, the murder rate will be the same. If that's the case what are we actually stopping by having a process that takes 90-180 days to buy a gun legally? Legal gun ownership isn't the problem apparently.

No the numbers do not say that:
They are in percentages - and when 25% vs. 55% of the population own guns
There is not a significant difference in gun violence

The regulations that are in place have no real effect - probably true
But having less regulations also doesn't make it safer either - as the NRA and Alpha would have us believe

The point I'm trying to make is: Red Herring

Gun violence isn't related to either sides (Anti-gun or Pro-gun) strongest debate point
Regulations don't stop gun crime
and when 55% of the population has a gun it is NOT safer either

My Point:
we're just an extremely violent nation
hand gun paperwork is not the issue

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

Could we also look at this from the other side.

The numbers tell us it doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 legally own guns, the murder rate will be the same. If that's the case what are we actually stopping by having a process that takes 90-180 days to buy a gun legally? Legal gun ownership isn't the problem apparently.

No the numbers do not say that:
They are in percentages - and when 25% vs. 55% of the population own guns
There is not a significant difference in gun violence

The regulations that are in place have no real effect - probably true
But having less regulations also doesn't make it safer either - as the NRA and Alpha would have us believe

The point I'm trying to make is: Red Herring

Gun violence isn't related to either sides (Anti-gun or Pro-gun) strongest debate point
Regulations don't stop gun crime
and when 55% of the population has a gun it is NOT safer either

My Point:
we're just an extremely violent nation
hand gun paperwork is not the issue

So to simplify all this, what we really need is for people to stop breaking the law.

It always amazes me to hear how some new gun law would have stopped this crime or that crime when in reality, there wasn't much of anything we could have done to stop it. The individual was hell bent on killing someone and the gun was just the tool or instrument to do it. I really think we need to crack down on the laws we have in place now and see where that gets us. It seems like criminals are always getting out way to soon. We should also be culling the heard a lot more too.

[Chizzang]

No the numbers do not say that:
They are in percentages - and when 25% vs. 55% of the population own guns
There is not a significant difference in gun violence

The regulations that are in place have no real effect - probably true
But having less regulations also doesn't make it safer either - as the NRA and Alpha would have us believe

The point I'm trying to make is: Red Herring

Gun violence isn't related to either sides (Anti-gun or Pro-gun) strongest debate point
Regulations don't stop gun crime
and when 55% of the population has a gun it is NOT safer either

My Point:
we're just an extremely violent nation
hand gun paperwork is not the issue

So to simplify all this, what we really need is for people to stop breaking the law.

It always amazes me to hear how some new gun law would have stopped this crime or that crime when in reality, there wasn't much of anything we could have done to stop it. The individual was hell bent on killing someone and the gun was just the tool or instrument to do it. I really think we need to crack down on the laws we have in place now and see where that gets us. It seems like criminals are always getting out way to soon. We should also be culling the heard a lot more too.

Just like TAXES we don't really need a "new one" because that won't fix anything...
and I have no clue what the right answer is

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Carry

[Chizzang]

Carry

How about you carry and I hang out near you..?

[houndawg]

You're probably keeping out some goobers that are too fvcking stupid to be running around armed. Fvcking halfwits have no idea of the kind of responsibility that comes with carrying a pistol.

Are these number not telling us that these goobers are getting their hands on guns regardless if the state lets them but it from a gun store or not?

Your point?

[AZGrizFan]

Could we also look at this from the other side.

The numbers tell us it doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 legally own guns, the murder rate will be the same. If that's the case what are we actually stopping by having a process that takes 90-180 days to buy a gun legally? Legal gun ownership isn't the problem apparently.

No the numbers do not say that:
They are in percentages - and when 25% vs. 55% of the population own guns
There is not a significant difference in gun violence

The regulations that are in place have no real effect - probably true
But having less regulations also doesn't make it safer either - as the NRA and Alpha would have us believe

The point I'm trying to make is: Red Herring

Gun violence isn't related to either sides (Anti-gun or Pro-gun) strongest debate point
Regulations don't stop gun crime
and when 55% of the population has a gun it is NOT safer either

Were the initial stats you posted MURDER stats or MURDER WITH A GUN stats?

[grizzaholic]

No the numbers do not say that:
They are in percentages - and when 25% vs. 55% of the population own guns
There is not a significant difference in gun violence

The regulations that are in place have no real effect - probably true
But having less regulations also doesn't make it safer either - as the NRA and Alpha would have us believe

The point I'm trying to make is: Red Herring

Gun violence isn't related to either sides (Anti-gun or Pro-gun) strongest debate point
Regulations don't stop gun crime
and when 55% of the population has a gun it is NOT safer either

Were the initial stats you posted MURDER stats or MURDER WITH A GUN stats?

Or murder will illegal gun?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Carry

How about you carry and I hang out near you..?

That wouldnt do you any good. I will make sure I get away from and out of the situation at hand and I will NEVER help anyone that doesnt have a gun for their own protection. I would literally throw you in between me and the threat if it aides me in getting away.

My first priority is to get away and not harm the guy with the gun.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

My Point:
we're just an extremely violent nation
hand gun paperwork is not the issue

So 30k murders in a country of 300 million is extremely violent?

That low of a number is damn near an anomaly..............

[BDKJMU]

Pulling a JSO here analyzing the data. 2012 POTUS election 26 Blue States and 24 Red states. Top 16 states only 2 Blue. Bottom 18 states only 1 Red. What is most surprising to me:
-HI, The most donk state, is 10th.
-UT, the most conk state,is 27th, behind 6 Blue states.
-MN is higher than 10 Red states.
-NE, the 9th reddest at 43, behind over 3/4 of the Blue states.
-DE at 50 at a paltry 5.2%. Granted its a blue state, but never thought they'd be 50th.
-If DC was a state, at 25.9%, would rank 39th. They must be including illegal ownship bu all the hoodlums..
-Living in Pa, a Blue swing state, I noted of the 11 Blue in front of PA, 6 are flyover states, 2 are barely Blue FL and VA, 1 is VT (liberal but somewhat pro gun), HI (an oddity) and WA. Surprised that WA . Which is bluer than PA, is higher than PA, which has been referred to as Pennsyltucky, and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between.

1. AK: 61.7% (Red)
2. AR: 57.9% (Red)
3. ID: 56.9% (Red)
4. WV: 54.2% (Red)
5. WY: 53.8% (Red)
6. MT: 52.3% (Red)
7. NM: 49.9% (Blue)
8. AL: 48.9% (Red)
9. ND: 47.9% (Red)
10. HI: 45.1% (Blue): Most Blue state, BHO won over 70% of vote, won by nearly 43%
11. LA: 44.5% (Red)
12. SC: 44.4% (Red)
13. MS: 42.8% (Red)
14 KY: 42.4% (Red)
15. TN: 39.4% (Red)
16. NV: 37.5% (Red)
17. MN: 36.7% (Blue): Higher than 10 Red states.
18. TX: 35.7% (Red)
19. SD: 35.0% (Red)
20. WI: 34.7% (Blue)
21. CO: 34.3% (Blue)
22. IA: 33.8% (Blue)
--- IN: 33.8% (Red)
24. FL: 32.5% (Least blue Blue state, BHO won by .88%)
25. AZ: 32.3% (Red)
26. KS: 32.2% (Red)
27. UT: 31.9% (Most Red State, Romney won 72.9% of the vote, won by over 48%).
28. GA: 31.6% (Red)
29. OK: 31.2% (Red)
30. VA: 29.3% (Blue)
31. NC: 28.7% (Least red Red state, Romney won by 2.04%)
32. MI: 28.8% (Blue)
---- VT: 28.8% (Blue)
34. WA: 28.7%(Blue)
35. MO: 27.1% (Blue)
---- PA: 27.1% (Blue)
37. OR: 26.6% (Blue)
38. IL: 26.2% (Blue)
39. MA: 22.6% (Blue)
---- ME: 22.6% (Blue)
41. MD: 20.7% (Blue)
42. CA: 20.1% (Blue)
43. NE: 19.8% (Red): 9th reddest, Romney won by 21.77%.
44. OH: (Blue)
45. CT: (Blue)
46. NH: (Blue)
47. NJ: (Blue)
48. NY: (Blue)
49. RI: (Blue)
50. DE: (Blue)

[Chizzang]

How about you carry and I hang out near you..?

That wouldnt do you any good. I will make sure I get away from and out of the situation at hand and I will NEVER help anyone that doesnt have a gun for their own protection. I would literally throw you in between me and the threat if it aides me in getting away.

My first priority is to get away and not harm the guy with the gun.

That ^ was awesome...

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

Pulling a JSO here analyzing the data. 2012 POTUS election 26 Blue States and 24 Red states. Top 16 states only 2 Blue. Bottom 18 states only 1 Red. What is most surprising to me:
-HI, The most donk state, is 10th.
-UT, the most conk state,is 27th, behind 6 Blue states.
-MN is higher than 10 Red states.
-NE, the 9th reddest at 43, behind over 3/4 of the Blue states.
-DE at 50 at a paltry 5.2%. Granted its a blue state, but never thought they'd be 50th.
-If DC was a state, at 25.9%, would rank 39th. They must be including illegal ownship bu all the hoodlums..
-Living in Pa, a Blue swing state, I noted of the 11 Blue in front of PA, 6 are flyover states, 2 are barely Blue FL and VA, 1 is VT (liberal but somewhat pro gun), HI (an oddity) and WA. Surprised that WA . Which is bluer than PA, is higher than PA, which has been referred to as Pennsyltucky, and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between.

This surprises me a bit as well. But I would like to say that our gun laws are pretty reasonable in Utah. Open carry is allowed and if you get your concealed carry permit, you are allowed to take it on any state owned building including universities and schools. (Obviously court houses etc are different) With my permit I am allowed to carry in any public school and not have any issues. The police never give me any grief about carrying either. I told one cop after a minor traffic accident that I was carrying and all he said was: "Good, I think those that can, should.".

[ASUG8]

Pulling a JSO here analyzing the data. 2012 POTUS election 26 Blue States and 24 Red states. Top 16 states only 2 Blue. Bottom 18 states only 1 Red. What is most surprising to me:
-HI, The most donk state, is 10th.
-UT, the most conk state,is 27th, behind 6 Blue states.
-MN is higher than 10 Red states.
-NE, the 9th reddest at 43, behind over 3/4 of the Blue states.
-DE at 50 at a paltry 5.2%. Granted its a blue state, but never thought they'd be 50th.
-If DC was a state, at 25.9%, would rank 39th. They must be including illegal ownship bu all the hoodlums..
-Living in Pa, a Blue swing state, I noted of the 11 Blue in front of PA, 6 are flyover states, 2 are barely Blue FL and VA, 1 is VT (liberal but somewhat pro gun), HI (an oddity) and WA. Surprised that WA . Which is bluer than PA, is higher than PA, which has been referred to as Pennsyltucky, and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between.

This surprises me a bit as well. But I would like to say that our gun laws are pretty reasonable in Utah. Open carry is allowed and if you get your concealed carry permit, you are allowed to take it on any state owned building including universities and schools. (Obviously court houses etc are different) With my permit I am allowed to carry in any public school and not have any issues. The police never give me any grief about carrying either. I told one cop after a minor traffic accident that I was carrying and all he said was: "Good, I think those that can, should.".

When I got my SC permit they encouraged us to get the UT permit also since it's cheap and offers another 10-12 states with which SC doesn't have reciprocity (including next-door Georgia).

[Chizzang]

What the hell is AS right below AK (which is Alaska)

[ASUG8]

What the hell is AS right below AK (which is Alaska)

Probably Arkansas.