Military News: Sometimes old is good...

[houndawg]

I say keep the F-15. F-16 and A-10. Give them a new face lift and upgraded tech and keep kicking azz.

If you knew the price tag for what is really necessary to do what you propose, you'd **** your pants...

Service Life Extension Programs (SLEPs) end up costing so much that you have to question its value...

I'm not arguing for the F-35...but the F-16s are developing bulkhead cracks...the F-15s have already started breaking up...and there is nothing you can do to reduce the radar cross-section of either aircraft...

There is a reason we buy new cars...instead of doing Cuba and keep rebuilding old technology...

Understood. The beef is that other than electronics and a smaller radar cross-section, which becomes less of an advantage as the Chinese and Russians advance their own stealth programs, the new cars don't perform much, if at all, better than the old cars. I think that for $350,000,000,000, and counting, we should get an increase in performance at least equal to the performance increase in the Corvette over the last 50 years...and when these things finally do go into production how much will they cost per plane, and how many will we be able to afford? We'll have to sell them abroad to get some money back and there goes our advantage. We could have drones pulling twice the gs pilots can take and you know what it costs to train those guys..

[Col Hogan]

If you knew the price tag for what is really necessary to do what you propose, you'd **** your pants...

Service Life Extension Programs (SLEPs) end up costing so much that you have to question its value...

I'm not arguing for the F-35...but the F-16s are developing bulkhead cracks...the F-15s have already started breaking up...and there is nothing you can do to reduce the radar cross-section of either aircraft...

There is a reason we buy new cars...instead of doing Cuba and keep rebuilding old technology...

Understood. The beef is that other than electronics and a smaller radar cross-section, which becomes less of an advantage as the Chinese and Russians advance their own stealth programs, the new cars don't perform much, if at all, better than the old cars. I think that for $350,000,000,000, and counting, we should get an increase in performance at least equal to the performance increase in the Corvette over the last 50 years...and when these things finally do go into production how much will they cost per plane, and how many will we be able to afford? We'll have to sell them abroad to get some money back and there goes our advantage. We could have drones pulling twice the gs pilots can take and you know what it costs to train those guys..

Lockheed Martin has ripped us off on the F-35...and our own greed is the reason...

Instead of just building the basic F-35 as first designed, the officers running the program would add the newest gizmo...that adds to the development cost (and weight)...and the spiral continues...add more stuff...add to the costs..add to the weight...

Instead of a "nimble, light weight 5th generation fighter" which the F-35 was suppose to be, we have an over cost, under performing whale...(no offense meant to whales)

[houndawg]

Understood. The beef is that other than electronics and a smaller radar cross-section, which becomes less of an advantage as the Chinese and Russians advance their own stealth programs, the new cars don't perform much, if at all, better than the old cars. I think that for $350,000,000,000, and counting, we should get an increase in performance at least equal to the performance increase in the Corvette over the last 50 years...and when these things finally do go into production how much will they cost per plane, and how many will we be able to afford? We'll have to sell them abroad to get some money back and there goes our advantage. We could have drones pulling twice the gs pilots can take and you know what it costs to train those guys..

Lockheed Martin has ripped us off on the F-35...and our own greed is the reason...

Instead of just building the basic F-35 as first designed, the officers running the program would add the newest gizmo...that adds to the development cost (and weight)...and the spiral continues...add more stuff...add to the costs..add to the weight...

Instead of a "nimble, light weight 5th generation fighter" which the F-35 was suppose to be, we have an over cost, under performing whale...(no offense meant to whales)

I assume those officers now work for Lockheed Martin?

[93henfan]

Lockheed Martin has ripped us off on the F-35...and our own greed is the reason...

Instead of just building the basic F-35 as first designed, the officers running the program would add the newest gizmo...that adds to the development cost (and weight)...and the spiral continues...add more stuff...add to the costs..add to the weight...

Instead of a "nimble, light weight 5th generation fighter" which the F-35 was suppose to be, we have an over cost, under performing whale...(no offense meant to whales)

I assume those officers now work for Lockheed Martin?

Different platform(s), but this is what you get when this sort of money is involved:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darleen_Druyun

[CID1990]

Understood. The beef is that other than electronics and a smaller radar cross-section, which becomes less of an advantage as the Chinese and Russians advance their own stealth programs, the new cars don't perform much, if at all, better than the old cars. I think that for $350,000,000,000, and counting, we should get an increase in performance at least equal to the performance increase in the Corvette over the last 50 years...and when these things finally do go into production how much will they cost per plane, and how many will we be able to afford? We'll have to sell them abroad to get some money back and there goes our advantage. We could have drones pulling twice the gs pilots can take and you know what it costs to train those guys..

Lockheed Martin has ripped us off on the F-35...and our own greed is the reason...

Instead of just building the basic F-35 as first designed, the officers running the program would add the newest gizmo...that adds to the development cost (and weight)...and the spiral continues...add more stuff...add to the costs..add to the weight...

Instead of a "nimble, light weight 5th generation fighter" which the F-35 was suppose to be, we have an over cost, under performing whale...(no offense meant to whales)

Now there's something I've heard before- I have a family member who retired from the Marine Corps (fighter pilot) right around the time the F-35 was becoming a twinkle in the eyes of a few folks in the Pentagon.

He used to rant and rave about hiw the Zoomies in the puzzle palace were absolutely insufferable about the thing and how a bunch of non-engineers and non-pilots were going to take a potential goshawk and make a buzzard out of it.

[houndawg]

Lockheed Martin has ripped us off on the F-35...and our own greed is the reason...

Instead of just building the basic F-35 as first designed, the officers running the program would add the newest gizmo...that adds to the development cost (and weight)...and the spiral continues...add more stuff...add to the costs..add to the weight...

Instead of a "nimble, light weight 5th generation fighter" which the F-35 was suppose to be, we have an over cost, under performing whale...(no offense meant to whales)

Now there's something I've heard before- I have a family member who retired from the Marine Corps (fighter pilot) right around the time the F-35 was becoming a twinkle in the eyes of a few folks in the Pentagon.

He used to rant and rave about hiw the Zoomies in the puzzle palace were absolutely insufferable about the thing and how a bunch of non-engineers and non-pilots were going to take a potential goshawk and make a buzzard out of it.

Tell him to relax and hold judgement until more info is available.

[CID1990]

Now there's something I've heard before- I have a family member who retired from the Marine Corps (fighter pilot) right around the time the F-35 was becoming a twinkle in the eyes of a few folks in the Pentagon.

He used to rant and rave about hiw the Zoomies in the puzzle palace were absolutely insufferable about the thing and how a bunch of non-engineers and non-pilots were going to take a potential goshawk and make a buzzard out of it.

Tell him to relax and hold judgement until more info is available.

which is exactly what Im doing - we've been to this dance before with the Osprey and it turned out to be just noise

[houndawg]

Tell him to relax and hold judgement until more info is available.

which is exactly what Im doing - we've been to this dance before with the Osprey and it turned out to be just noise

Think we can milk this welfare program for a full trillion?

At least you won't need to wait 20 years this time.

[CID1990]

which is exactly what Im doing - we've been to this dance before with the Osprey and it turned out to be just noise

Think we can milk this welfare program for a full trillion?

At least you won't need to wait 20 years this time.

you taking broken record lessons from klam?

i really dont give a sh1t about our defense price tag - seriously - I lose more sleep over the season finale to Scandal

[houndawg]

Think we can milk this welfare program for a full trillion?

At least you won't need to wait 20 years this time.

you taking broken record lessons from klam?

i really dont give a sh1t about our defense price tag - seriously - I lose more sleep over the season finale to Scandal

That's the spirit!

[Ibanez]

Lockheed Martin has ripped us off on the F-35...and our own greed is the reason...

Instead of just building the basic F-35 as first designed, the officers running the program would add the newest gizmo...that adds to the development cost (and weight)...and the spiral continues...add more stuff...add to the costs..add to the weight...

Instead of a "nimble, light weight 5th generation fighter" which the F-35 was suppose to be, we have an over cost, under performing whale...(no offense meant to whales)

I assume those officers now work for Lockheed Martin?

Could be but they'd most likely be barred from working on anything related to the JSF.

[Ibanez]

Tell him to relax and hold judgement until more info is available.

which is exactly what Im doing - we've been to this dance before with the Osprey and it turned out to be just noise

And the C-17. And most other platforms that incorporate some emerging technologies and/or are a fleet replacement concept.

[Ibanez]

The only problem with the A10 is that you need total command of the sky for it to be effective. If the enemy has any air superiority platforms able to operate freely the warthog dies.

That can be said about most Attack Aircraft. A-6, A-7, F-111 and the F-117 they ALL need Fighter escort.

Really? Do bombers need fighter protection as well?

[CID1990]

That can be said about most Attack Aircraft. A-6, A-7, F-111 and the F-117 they ALL need Fighter escort.

Really? Do bombers need fighter protection as well?

Kleak,

and fighter "escort" is a pre-radar, WWII concept. You don't "escort" A-10s. People can shoot missiles at you from 50 miles away and that means you have to have TOTAL denial of airspace to your enemy in a large radius

or else the Warthog dies

BTW the F-117 did not need fighter escort - that was the whole point behind it

[andy7171]

[mrklean]

Really? Do bombers need fighter protection as well?

Kleak,

and fighter "escort" is a pre-radar, WWII concept. You don't "escort" A-10s. People can shoot missiles at you from 50 miles away and that means you have to have TOTAL denial of airspace to your enemy in a large radius

or else the Warthog dies

BTW the F-117 did not need fighter escort - that was the whole point behind it

BULLSHIT, The U.S Navy had F-4's to escort A-6's and A-7's during strike missions. Try again

[CID1990]

Kleak,

and fighter "escort" is a pre-radar, WWII concept. You don't "escort" A-10s. People can shoot missiles at you from 50 miles away and that means you have to have TOTAL denial of airspace to your enemy in a large radius

or else the Warthog dies

BTW the F-117 did not need fighter escort - that was the whole point behind it

BULLSHIT, The U.S Navy had F-4's to escort A-6's and A-7's during strike missions. Try again

No, klean, they did not escort anyone

They flew top cover to deny the airspace to the enemy

They did not escort A-6s and A-7s. If you fly anywhere within a half mile of whoever you are protecting (that's escorting) you're doing it wrong

There is a huge difference between "escorting" vs the way they protect attack aircraft in the jet age. If you want to continue down this path you WILL get schooled

Please post a photo of an F-4 and an A-7 in flight together or something similar as your proof so we can all laugh at you

[Ibanez]

BULLSHIT, The U.S Navy had F-4's to escort A-6's and A-7's during strike missions. Try again

No, klean, they did not escort anyone

They flew top cover to deny the airspace to the enemy

They did not escort A-6s and A-7s. If you fly anywhere within a half mile of whoever you are protecting (that's escorting) you're doing it wrong

There is a huge difference between "escorting" vs the way they protect attack aircraft in the jet age. If you want to continue down this path you WILL get schooled

Please post a photo of an F-4 and an A-7 in flight together or something similar as your proof so we can all laugh at you

Owned.