F-16 vs F-35

[Baldy]

How long have I been saying this shit?
F-35 my azz. piece of shyt

Credit where it due. You nailed this at least six years ago.

Queue up the broken clock analogy...

[Baldy]

Can anybody even debate the observation that the Pentagon is our country's largest failed social program

The largest fiscal and social program (by an extremely wide margin) failure is the so called "War on Poverty". $40,000,000,000,000 (trillion) and counting.

[ASUG8]

The F-35 tried to be all things to all people and is nowhere near what it was originally intended to be. We should have stayed with the F-22 and kept pumping out FA-18s, F-16s, and F-15's with advanced electronics. Overwhelming an enemy with numbers works pretty well vs. having one asset that's not as advertised.

How long have I been saying this shit?
F-35 my azz. piece of shyt

You missed the F-22 part I proposed. We need a 5th gen fighter to offset what the Russians are putting out with the PAK FA-T50, and the Chinese will likely purchase some and reverse engineer them. Hopefully the Chinese, with their stolen F-35 blueprints, will pump out a ton of these with typical Chinese quality. We

[kalm]

Can anybody even debate the observation that the Pentagon is our country's largest failed social program

The largest fiscal and social program (by an extremely wide margin) failure is the so called "War on Poverty". $40,000,000,000,000 (trillion) and counting.

The biggest problem with poverty programs is they tend to create generational dependence. But it hasn't all been a failure.

I'm guessing we've spent more on defense...and there's still wars.

I'll bet we've spent trillions on the War on Drugs and there's still drugs.

[CID1990]

How long have I been saying this ****?
F-35 my azz. piece of shyt

You missed the F-22 part I proposed. We need a 5th gen fighter to offset what the Russians are putting out with the PAK FA-T50, and the Chinese will likely purchase some and reverse engineer them. Hopefully the Chinese, with their stolen F-35 blueprints, will pump out a ton of these with typical Chinese quality. We

Hmmm

Maybe that was the intent all along?


Maybe the trillion bucks was actually just a million?


It's all electrons, anyway

[houndawg]

How long have I been saying this ****?
F-35 my azz. piece of shyt

You missed the F-22 part I proposed. We need a 5th gen fighter to offset what the Russians are putting out with the PAK FA-T50, and the Chinese will likely purchase some and reverse engineer them. Hopefully the Chinese, with their stolen F-35 blueprints, will pump out a ton of these with typical Chinese quality. We

Looks like weapons sales may take a hit.

[Ibanez]

Who on here has been defending the F-35 in these past 6 years? (I thought some had, but don't remember).

I have. There are some great fighters out there. But are we seriously going to put new electronics on old chassis' that are reaching their EOL? Obviously, this recent test (out of how many?) isn't good. I worked on the F-35 project, at the PM level, and it's a mess. But we've invested so much into it that there's no winning scenario. Either continue and improve and get lambasted in the media OR quit and get lambasted in the media.

I think the Pentagon tried to do too much with untested technology. We should have tested the electronics on current platforms, created a few prototypes before LRP and FRP.

[Baldy]

The largest fiscal and social program (by an extremely wide margin) failure is the so called "War on Poverty". $40,000,000,000,000 (trillion) and counting.

The biggest problem with poverty programs is they tend to create generational dependence. But it hasn't all been a failure.

I'm guessing we've spent more on defense...and there's still wars.

I'll bet we've spent trillions on the War on Drugs and there's still drugs.

No, it hasn't all been a failure, just like all of DoD hasn't been a failure, either.

Actually, since the end of WWII (from 1946 - 2009) we have "only" spent $23 Trillion on defense.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904490.html

There will always be poverty, wars, and drugs, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

[CID1990]

Who on here has been defending the F-35 in these past 6 years? (I thought some had, but don't remember).

I have. There are some great fighters out there. But are we seriously going to put new electronics on old chassis' that are reaching their EOL? Obviously, this recent test (out of how many?) isn't good. I worked on the F-35 project, at the PM level, and it's a mess. But we've invested so much into it that there's no winning scenario. Either continue and improve and get lambasted in the media OR quit and get lambasted in the media.

I think the Pentagon tried to do too much with untested technology. We should have tested the electronics on current platforms, created a few prototypes before LRP and FRP.

I don't think its as simple as electronics or untested technology

there are revolutionary materials in the F-35, and there are certainly lots of new technologies present in its avionics suite

But those have very little do do with the airplane's envelope when it comes to AoA flying - that's just good 'ol wind tunnel (or today - computer sim) testing-

seriously - basic performance issues like the ones the test pilot described are tied solely to weight, balance, aerodynamics, and control surface effects - you can literally predict what those things will be without even building the airplane

it almost sounds as though Lockheed Martin got wrapped up in the tech behind the VTOL capability and the sensors and completely forgot that this thing still has to be survivable at close range

[93henfan]

Yes, the F-35 program has been a study in clusterfuckedness. I think it was a disaster for the AF and Navy, but at least the Marine Corps can start to phase out the Harrier. The Harrier is a honking piece of shit.

[houndawg]

I have. There are some great fighters out there. But are we seriously going to put new electronics on old chassis' that are reaching their EOL? Obviously, this recent test (out of how many?) isn't good. I worked on the F-35 project, at the PM level, and it's a mess. But we've invested so much into it that there's no winning scenario. Either continue and improve and get lambasted in the media OR quit and get lambasted in the media.

I think the Pentagon tried to do too much with untested technology. We should have tested the electronics on current platforms, created a few prototypes before LRP and FRP.

I don't think its as simple as electronics or untested technology

there are revolutionary materials in the F-35, and there are certainly lots of new technologies present in its avionics suite

But those have very little do do with the airplane's envelope when it comes to AoA flying - that's just good 'ol wind tunnel (or today - computer sim) testing-

seriously - basic performance issues like the ones the test pilot described are tied solely to weight, balance, aerodynamics, and control surface effects - you can literally predict what those things will be without even building the airplane

it almost sounds as though Lockheed Martin got wrapped up in the tech behind the VTOL capability and the sensors and completely forgot that this thing still has to be survivable at close range

I think it is quite a bit about the electronics given that the pilot has been the limiting factor in dog fighting performance for a few decades now.

[ASUG8]

I kinda get the Marine's need for VTOL, but the amount of fuel used means the F-35B needs to find a tanker immediately after getting to the proper altitude.

[CID1990]

I don't think its as simple as electronics or untested technology

there are revolutionary materials in the F-35, and there are certainly lots of new technologies present in its avionics suite

But those have very little do do with the airplane's envelope when it comes to AoA flying - that's just good 'ol wind tunnel (or today - computer sim) testing-

seriously - basic performance issues like the ones the test pilot described are tied solely to weight, balance, aerodynamics, and control surface effects - you can literally predict what those things will be without even building the airplane

it almost sounds as though Lockheed Martin got wrapped up in the tech behind the VTOL capability and the sensors and completely forgot that this thing still has to be survivable at close range

I think it is quite a bit about the electronics given that the pilot has been the limiting factor in dog fighting performance for a few decades now.

The electronics on board have no bearing on the shortcomings that were alleged by the test pilot. His complaints were the AoA maneuvering capabilities of the aircraft.

Both aircraft were piloted by humans, and in that respect the only limitation is G tolerance.

[houndawg]

I think it is quite a bit about the electronics given that the pilot has been the limiting factor in dog fighting performance for a few decades now.

The electronics on board have no bearing on the shortcomings that were alleged by the test pilot. His complaints were the AoA maneuvering capabilities of the aircraft.

Both aircraft were piloted by humans, and in that respect the only limitation is G tolerance.

Yes. That's why I'm of the opinion that its about the electronics. We don't need a new airframe design, the old ones can pull more gs than the pilot can. Put the billions in the electronics.

[CID1990]

The electronics on board have no bearing on the shortcomings that were alleged by the test pilot. His complaints were the AoA maneuvering capabilities of the aircraft.

Both aircraft were piloted by humans, and in that respect the only limitation is G tolerance.

Yes. That's why I'm of the opinion that its about the electronics. We don't need a new airframe design, the old ones can pull more gs than the pilot can. Put the billions in the electronics.

Obviously the F35 is not capable of testing the limits of human endurance if it cannot turn inside the F16.

But I hear Lockheed Martin has openings for a couple more geniuses so maybe you should send them an application

[houndawg]

Yes. That's why I'm of the opinion that its about the electronics. We don't need a new airframe design, the old ones can pull more gs than the pilot can. Put the billions in the electronics.

Obviously the F35 is not capable of testing the limits of human endurance if it cannot turn inside the F16.

But I hear Lockheed Martin has openings for a couple more geniuses so maybe you should send them an application

Judging by their product they need a lot more than a couple. Too far away for me, I like it right here.

[mrklean]

This is OUR MONEY wasted. For what? I told you this was crap from day one. The DOD has been doing this for years. Audit the DOD NOW!!!!!! some of you bitch about welfare and Food Stamps. Get pissed off about this!!!

I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!

[CID1990]

This is OUR MONEY wasted. For what? I told you this was crap from day one. The DOD has been doing this for years. Audit the DOD NOW!!!!!! some of you bitch about welfare and Food Stamps. Get pissed off about this!!!

I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!

You're just monkey # 457436798555 that wrote Romeo and Juliet after being given a pen and piece of paper

Unless your wife is a chief engineer at Boeing

[mrklean]

This is OUR MONEY wasted. For what? I told you this was crap from day one. The DOD has been doing this for years. Audit the DOD NOW!!!!!! some of you bitch about welfare and Food Stamps. Get pissed off about this!!!

I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!

You're just monkey # 457436798555 that wrote Romeo and Juliet after being given a pen and piece of paper

Unless your wife is a chief engineer at Boeing

No matter what you say, you know I am right about this.

AUDIT THE DOD!!!!!

[houndawg]

This is OUR MONEY wasted. For what? I told you this was crap from day one. The DOD has been doing this for years. Audit the DOD NOW!!!!!! some of you bitch about welfare and Food Stamps. Get pissed off about this!!!

I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!

You're just monkey # 457436798555 that wrote Romeo and Juliet after being given a pen and piece of paper

Unless your wife is a chief engineer at Boeing

He's been saying it for years. Gotta give credit where its due if you're going to play the adult in the room CID.

[kalm]

You're just monkey # 457436798555 that wrote Romeo and Juliet after being given a pen and piece of paper

Unless your wife is a chief engineer at Boeing

He's been saying it for years. Gotta give credit where its due if you're going to play the adult in the room CID.

yup.

[CID1990]

You're just monkey # 457436798555 that wrote Romeo and Juliet after being given a pen and piece of paper

Unless your wife is a chief engineer at Boeing

He's been saying it for years. Gotta give credit where its due if you're going to play the adult in the room CID.

I already did that. Now that he's repeating himself he's fair game.

And this isnt the adult room. If it was, you and kleak wouldnt be here

[houndawg]

He's been saying it for years. Gotta give credit where its due if you're going to play the adult in the room CID.

I already did that. Now that he's repeating himself he's fair game.

And this isnt the adult room. If it was, you and kleak wouldnt be here

Yeah we'd be over at AGS shaking our heads at what somebody over there refers to as "that cesspool".

[CID1990]

Here's a measured post on the subject - I know this guy is normally critical of wasteful military spending in most circumstances-

but he makes a pretty good case for withholding judgment on the F-35:

http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2015/07 ... g.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mrklean]

350 Billion Dollars wasted. Ain't nobody said SHYT