Confederate Battle Flag Poll

[mrklean]

For three straight years, my frat brothers and I liberated the KA's Confederate Battle Flag every Halloween night. YES WE CAN..........lol

Typical thug thief...thinks he is entitled to other people's property.

Says the white man who killed Native Americans of their Land

[OL FU]

For what its worth, a little personal perspective. I attended grades one through five in segregated schools. Desegregation occurred in the sixth grade in my hometown and I got to live through all the rumors of race fights that sent most white kids home on multiple occasions. After the second time my mother asked me, if I saw any reason to think that those fights were going to occur. I said no and after that she didn't pick me up anymore. I really screwed up some future vacation days.

I toured numerous civil war battlegrounds from Gettysburg to Chickamauga to Kennesaw to Murfreesboro. Growing up in the south (where civil war memorials are all around including stars marking the place where union shells hit the South Carolina State House) you grow up with a different perspective on the Confederacy. So I have that perspective.

Honestly though my affection for the flag came for a different reason. My teen and early adult years co-existed with the rise of a musical genre that had Southern written all over it - Southern Rock. I attended numerous concerts where the battle flag was the backdrop for the stage. So the battle flag was to me a symbol of southern pride and to a large degree in the music that was largely created in the south - blues, jazz, country, R&R and now a music that mixed them all together and was obviously southern when you listened to it.

When I was a child it wasn’t unusual to see a big white or gold Cadillac driving through town with mini battle flags attached to it and white hooded men sitting in the car. I really never had much knowledge of the KKK other than stories told by my mother who remembered crosses burning in black and white neighborhoods. Typically in white neighborhoods because some white person was seen as a little too friendly or kind to black people. My mother rarely says bad things about anyone, but if the word bastard ever came out of her mouth it would be in reference to the KKK.

By the time I was in my late teens, early 20’s you didn’t see the KKK much. But one day after hiking around the mountains with a friend where we would stop and play guitars and smoke a little weed, we saw the sign on the road north of where my wonderful alma mater sits for a KKK rally. Being young, dumb and stoned, we said what the hell and steered the vehicle through the men in white robes giving directions with their rifles to where we would park. After parking I saw the unburned cross and then the make shift stage. And the back drop for the stage was....... the confederate battle flag. After what seemed like an hour but was probably about 5 minutes, a wave of paranoia hit and I took that car out of there.

For a couple of days after that, the main take aways had been (1) WTF did I do that for and (2) the confederate flag that was a symbol of southern pride for me was being used by a group of ignorant bastards as a symbol of hate. Now honestly, it didn’t change the way I viewed the flag but it was certainly an eye opener for the way a black person might view it. I despise the fact that hate groups co-opted the flag. But they did. And for way too many years in the south those hate groups were protected by governments, Jim Crow laws and down right fear of them from black and white people.

So, yes I personally can be very proud of the confederate battle flag and still understand that it shouldn’t fly on the state house grounds.

Sorry this was long.

[OL FU]

There a numerous reasons for the flag to stay up. There is one reason for it to be taken down. 25% of the population of our state see bigotry, hatred, discrimination, racism, etc when they look at that flag and with good reason. For that single reason, it should come down.

I have kind of an opposite view. I think on a national level we tie ourselves in knots and wring our hands and go way out of our way all over the place to placate a group that makes up 13% of the population. In your State it's 25% of the population and in mine without looking up the latest I think it's like 31%. The the point is that nationally it's 13% of the population and to me we spend WAY too much time and effort on it. And we make excuses for its failures and exaggerate its successes. We have a whole network of official policies and rules to give its members advantages such as that "diversity" crap that was cited (as an example) by Michigan Law school as creating a situation in which 75% of the members of one of its 1st year classes would not have gotten into law school if they hadn't gotten preferential treatment as being "under represented minority" individuals. To me the rest of us in the national population ought to just say something like this:

"Get over it. We took our foot off your necks and let you up when there was no way you could've gotten out of the fix yourself. We voluntarily let you off the ground. Now you're off the ground so just shut up and make your way."

But, unfortunately, we have a substantial proportion of the White population that is afflicted by some kind of a guilt complex or something so that they facilitate the whole country bending over backwards to address the whining coming from 13%. Pathetic. Nothing somebody like me can do about it so it's just one of those things I have to live with but it's pathetic that there are enough White people in the country who go along with that crap to allow it to happen.

This has nothing to do with white guilt or that ridiculous third paragraph above. If I thought that was the attitude of most people, I would quite simply give up on people. This simply has to do with an understanding that the flag was used for years to remind black people of their place and it would be nice if we understood that they don't want that reminder any more. It isn't my fault the flag was used for that purpose. Not your fault or the flag's fault. But it doesn't change the fact that it was used to intimidate.

[OL FU]

There a numerous reasons for the flag to stay up. There is one reason for it to be taken down. 25% of the population of our state see bigotry, hatred, discrimination, racism, etc when they look at that flag and with good reason. For that single reason, it should come down.

"Because people get offended" is not a good reason to take it down. Some black people see the American flag and see bigotry, hatred, discrimination, and racism. Some other non-white people might see the Trail of Tears or the bombing of Hiroshima or Jim Crow or the Vietnam War or any number of things. Maybe we can just adopt a rainbow flag and no one will get offended?

Just like with native American mascot names, it is about context. If black rappers can use the n-word and black fraternities can brand themselves with their letters without those being painful reminders of history because of context why can't the confederate flag also be looked at for its context? A lot of white supremacist groups have their own banners and symbols because the confederate flag has become a symbol of a southerner more so than any symbol of racial seperatism or inequality.

Of course, a lot of dumb liberal people don't see the difference between the pickup truck-driving, NASCAR watching rural white southerner and people who believe in evolutionary superiority of certain races and ethnic groups. That's my problem with a lot of the anti-confederate-flag, social justice folks.

Of course because people get offended is not a good reason to do things. The question is are they justified in being offended and in this case I think the answer is yes.

[OL FU]

There a numerous reasons for the flag to stay up. There is one reason for it to be taken down. 25% of the population of our state see bigotry, hatred, discrimination, racism, etc when they look at that flag and with good reason. For that single reason, it should come down.

I agree.

All of my male ancestors of fighting age fought for the Confederacy. They were killed at Seven Pines, captured at Gettysburg, and wallowed in the mud at Petersburg. I'm proud of them for going to fight when their state called them.

Ive never thought it was appropriate for the flag to be on the Statehouse or its grounds, especially given how it got there in the first place. Defending it vehemently only leads to specious arguments, and implies state endorsement of the cause it represents.

I think it is possible to separate the individual Confederate soldier from the overall cause they served, but the flag on the statehouse grounds doesnt represent the individual soldier - it represents the whole idea.

I dont care if people misunderstand its significance in their desire to see it taken down or not - it doesnt matter. It is offensive to some, and it is unwelcoming to a whole class of people.

Id be perfectly willing to discuss my nonracial reverence for the flag, but before that conversation can happen in good faith, the flag needs to be removed from its position of state government endorsement.

One more reason for it to come down. Years ago I grew tired of you bellhops waving that thing in my face

[Ibanez]

Typical thug thief...thinks he is entitled to other people's property.

Says the white man who killed Native Americans of their Land

That's like saying you led a slave revolt. Quit blaming people today for something that happened centuries ago. Your racism is disgusting.

[kalm]

For what its worth, a little personal perspective. I attended grades one through five in segregated schools. Desegregation occurred in the sixth grade in my hometown and I got to live through all the rumors of race fights that sent most white kids home on multiple occasions. After the second time my mother asked me, if I saw any reason to think that those fights were going to occur. I said no and after that she didn't pick me up anymore. I really screwed up some future vacation days.

I toured numerous civil war battlegrounds from Gettysburg to Chickamauga to Kennesaw to Murfreesboro. Growing up in the south (where civil war memorials are all around including stars marking the place where union shells hit the South Carolina State House) you grow up with a different perspective on the Confederacy. So I have that perspective.

Honestly though my affection for the flag came for a different reason. My teen and early adult years co-existed with the rise of a musical genre that had Southern written all over it - Southern Rock. I attended numerous concerts where the battle flag was the backdrop for the stage. So the battle flag was to me a symbol of southern pride and to a large degree in the music that was largely created in the south - blues, jazz, country, R&R and now a music that mixed them all together and was obviously southern when you listened to it.

When I was a child it wasn’t unusual to see a big white or gold Cadillac driving through town with mini battle flags attached to it and white hooded men sitting in the car. I really never had much knowledge of the KKK other than stories told by my mother who remembered crosses burning in black and white neighborhoods. Typically in white neighborhoods because some white person was seen as a little too friendly or kind to black people. My mother rarely says bad things about anyone, but if the word bastard ever came out of her mouth it would be in reference to the KKK.

By the time I was in my late teens, early 20’s you didn’t see the KKK much. But one day after hiking around the mountains with a friend where we would stop and play guitars and smoke a little weed, we saw the sign on the road north of where my wonderful alma mater sits for a KKK rally. Being young, dumb and stoned, we said what the hell and steered the vehicle through the men in white robes giving directions with their rifles to where we would park. After parking I saw the unburned cross and then the make shift stage. And the back drop for the stage was....... the confederate battle flag. After what seemed like an hour but was probably about 5 minutes, a wave of paranoia hit and I took that car out of there.

For a couple of days after that, the main take aways had been (1) WTF did I do that for and (2) the confederate flag that was a symbol of southern pride for me was being used by a group of ignorant bastards as a symbol of hate. Now honestly, it didn’t change the way I viewed the flag but it was certainly an eye opener for the way a black person might view it. I despise the fact that hate groups co-opted the flag. But they did. And for way too many years in the south those hate groups were protected by governments, Jim Crow laws and down right fear of them from black and white people.

So, yes I personally can be very proud of the confederate battle flag and still understand that it shouldn’t fly on the state house grounds.

Sorry this was long.

If only Southern Whites would learn to police their own they might be able to keep the flag...

CID, OLFU, and Vidav ( ) ripping the tits off this here thread.

[kalm]

“Our actual ultimate root
is in our humanity,
not in our personal genealogy."
Joseph Campbell, Myths to Live By

[CID1990]

I agree.

All of my male ancestors of fighting age fought for the Confederacy. They were killed at Seven Pines, captured at Gettysburg, and wallowed in the mud at Petersburg. I'm proud of them for going to fight when their state called them.

Ive never thought it was appropriate for the flag to be on the Statehouse or its grounds, especially given how it got there in the first place. Defending it vehemently only leads to specious arguments, and implies state endorsement of the cause it represents.

I think it is possible to separate the individual Confederate soldier from the overall cause they served, but the flag on the statehouse grounds doesnt represent the individual soldier - it represents the whole idea.

I dont care if people misunderstand its significance in their desire to see it taken down or not - it doesnt matter. It is offensive to some, and it is unwelcoming to a whole class of people.

Id be perfectly willing to discuss my nonracial reverence for the flag, but before that conversation can happen in good faith, the flag needs to be removed from its position of state government endorsement.

One more reason for it to come down. Years ago I grew tired of you bellhops waving that thing in my face

Offending furples is not a motivation for getting rid of it, that's for sure

[OL FU]

One more reason for it to come down. Years ago I grew tired of you bellhops waving that thing in my face

Offending furples is not a motivation for getting rid of it, that's for sure

For what its worth, I always thought the Citadel band played the best version of Dixie ever.

[andy7171]

I don't really like the battle flag. But, it has always made identifying assholes easier.

This.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Typical thug thief...thinks he is entitled to other people's property.

Says the white man who killed Native Americans of their Land

Its our land now, only the strong survive

[mrklean]

Says the white man who killed Native Americans of their Land

That's like saying you led a slave revolt. Quit blaming people today for something that happened centuries ago. Your racism is disgusting.

No racism, its fact.

[mrklean]

Says the white man who killed Native Americans of their Land

Its our land now, only the strong survive

Typical white man response. Until its done to you, then you cry foul like a little bitch

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Its our land now, only the strong survive

Typical white man response. Until its done to you, then you cry foul like a little bitch

Wrong, I dont live in the past and I had nothing to do with it so I feel NOTHING, in fact its a non issue for successful people. Look forward not back.

If it were to happen that lets say China took over this country as a white guy, I would shake their hand and say job well done. I wouldnt take the dirt road you continue to travel down.

[Ibanez]

That's like saying you led a slave revolt. Quit blaming people today for something that happened centuries ago. Your racism is disgusting.

No racism, its fact.

No, it is. You blame modern whites for things they haven't done simply b/c of their skin color. You are judging someone based on their skin color. Do you even KNOW what racism means?

[Ibanez]

Its our land now, only the strong survive

Typical white man response. Until its done to you, then you cry foul like a little bitch

Same with you. You cry foul like a little bitch but you have never been oppressed like African slaves were. You have every advantage and opportunity to succeed in America. Opportunities that weren't around 60 or 70 yrs ago. You can register to vote and not have some white man ask you questions about patriotism and then deny you. You have never had to slave away in a cotton field or watch as your family is sold off to the highest bidder. Anyone today that can't get ahead, has only themselves to blame. Whites aren't holding anyone down.

[mrklean]

Typical white man response. Until its done to you, then you cry foul like a little bitch

Same with you. You cry foul like a little bitch but you have never been oppressed like African slaves were. You have every advantage and opportunity to succeed in America. Opportunities that weren't around 60 or 70 yrs ago. You can register to vote and not have some white man ask you questions about patriotism and then deny you. You have never had to slave away in a cotton field or watch as your family is sold off to the highest bidder. Anyone today that can't get ahead, has only themselves to blame. Whites aren't holding anyone down.

Just because we have gained rights that should have been given to us in 1865, you think things are great. Just because I have a great life and trust me I do. I will continue to fight for men, women and children in the inner city because they did not choose to be born to sorry azz parents. They do Jacked upped things because they were taught this. Just like some white people in South Carolina defending that Flag of traitors.

Just look at the inner city in the North,
Bad school system
Bad government
Bad public safety
No Job growth
Generational poverty
Now it the South we have it a little better, however, outside of Atlanta, GA and Prince George's County (MD), tell me a city were Africans Americans enjoy a good life?

[mrklean]

Typical white man response. Until its done to you, then you cry foul like a little bitch

Wrong, I dont live in the past and I had nothing to do with it so I feel NOTHING, in fact its a non issue for successful people. Look forward not back.

If it were to happen that lets say China took over this country as a white guy, I would shake their hand and say job well done. I wouldnt take the dirt road you continue to travel down.

Admits, he would not fight for his country..............

[AZGrizFan]

Same with you. You cry foul like a little bitch but you have never been oppressed like African slaves were. You have every advantage and opportunity to succeed in America. Opportunities that weren't around 60 or 70 yrs ago. You can register to vote and not have some white man ask you questions about patriotism and then deny you. You have never had to slave away in a cotton field or watch as your family is sold off to the highest bidder. Anyone today that can't get ahead, has only themselves to blame. Whites aren't holding anyone down.

Just because we have gained rights that should have been given to us in 1865, you think things are great. Just because I have a great life and trust me I do. I will continue to fight for men, women and children in the inner city because they did not choose to be born to sorry azz parents. They do Jacked upped things because they were taught this. Just like some white people in South Carolina defending that Flag of traitors.

Just look at the inner city in the North,
Bad school system
Bad government
Bad public safety
No Job growth
Generational poverty
Now it the South we have it a little better, however, outside of Atlanta, GA and Prince George's County (MD), tell me a city were Africans Americans enjoy a good life?

Funny how every other minority seems to have been able to figure it out. Why do you suppose that is?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Wrong, I dont live in the past and I had nothing to do with it so I feel NOTHING, in fact its a non issue for successful people. Look forward not back.

If it were to happen that lets say China took over this country as a white guy, I would shake their hand and say job well done. I wouldnt take the dirt road you continue to travel down.

Admits, he would not fight for his country..............

I would fight for my family and possibly my state but this country is a fucking joke, its sure nothing to be proud of.

[andy7171]

Same with you. You cry foul like a little bitch but you have never been oppressed like African slaves were. You have every advantage and opportunity to succeed in America. Opportunities that weren't around 60 or 70 yrs ago. You can register to vote and not have some white man ask you questions about patriotism and then deny you. You have never had to slave away in a cotton field or watch as your family is sold off to the highest bidder. Anyone today that can't get ahead, has only themselves to blame. Whites aren't holding anyone down.

Just because we have gained rights that should have been given to us in 1865, you think things are great. Just because I have a great life and trust me I do. I will continue to fight for men, women and children in the inner city because they did not choose to be born to sorry azz parents. They do Jacked upped things because they were taught this. Just like some white people in South Carolina defending that Flag of traitors.

Just look at the inner city in the North,
Bad school system
Bad government
Bad public safety
No Job growth
Generational poverty
Now it the South we have it a little better, however, outside of Atlanta, GA and Prince George's County (MD), tell me a city were Africans Americans enjoy a good life?

Who runs those cities in the North? After all this happening in Baltimore, the locals are just now waking up to the $100's of billions wasted with absolutely nothing to show for it over the last decade. Can't blame white people for Baltimore. It's been run into the ground by your own. Over 60 years of self run. Can't blame racist white cops when they are in the minority on the force. The cop charged with Freddie Grays murder is black.
Same story can be told for every major NE city.

[Ibanez]

Same with you. You cry foul like a little bitch but you have never been oppressed like African slaves were. You have every advantage and opportunity to succeed in America. Opportunities that weren't around 60 or 70 yrs ago. You can register to vote and not have some white man ask you questions about patriotism and then deny you. You have never had to slave away in a cotton field or watch as your family is sold off to the highest bidder. Anyone today that can't get ahead, has only themselves to blame. Whites aren't holding anyone down.

Just because we have gained rights that should have been given to us in 1865, you think things are great. Just because I have a great life and trust me I do. I will continue to fight for men, women and children in the inner city because they did not choose to be born to sorry azz parents. They do Jacked upped things because they were taught this. Just like some white people in South Carolina defending that Flag of traitors.

Just look at the inner city in the North,
Bad school system
Bad government
Bad public safety
No Job growth
Generational poverty
Now it the South we have it a little better, however, outside of Atlanta, GA and Prince George's County (MD), tell me a city were Africans Americans enjoy a good life?

No, you're right. People don't choose to be born to bad people (white, black, whatever.) But that's a separate issue. You assign guilt to modern white people for the sins of people that have long since died. The Bible teaches forgiveness AND states that the son shouldn't be punished for the sins of the father. Quit putting the problems of black people on white people. People have to take accountability. I know the world isn't fair and that's blacks still get screwed over, but compared to 1963, it's gotten better and it will continue to get better. The culture of blame has got to stop. I didn't enslave anyone. My family never enslaved anyone.

[Ibanez]

Admits, he would not fight for his country..............

I would fight for my family and possibly my state but this country is a fucking joke, its sure nothing to be proud of.

Sounds like most Confederate soldiers.

[AZGrizFan]

Just because we have gained rights that should have been given to us in 1865, you think things are great. Just because I have a great life and trust me I do. I will continue to fight for men, women and children in the inner city because they did not choose to be born to sorry azz parents. They do Jacked upped things because they were taught this. Just like some white people in South Carolina defending that Flag of traitors.

Just look at the inner city in the North,
Bad school system
Bad government
Bad public safety
No Job growth
Generational poverty
Now it the South we have it a little better, however, outside of Atlanta, GA and Prince George's County (MD), tell me a city were Africans Americans enjoy a good life?

No, you're right. People don't choose to be born to bad people (white, black, whatever.) But that's a separate issue. You assign guilt to modern white people for the sins of people that have long since died. The Bible teaches forgiveness AND states that the son shouldn't be punished for the sins of the father. Quit putting the problems of black people on white people. People have to take accountability. I know the world isn't fair and that's blacks still get screwed over, but compared to 1963, it's gotten better and it will continue to get better. The culture of blame has got to stop. I didn't enslave anyone. My family never enslaved anyone.

THat's kkk's M.O. Deflect, deflect, deflect. That's why he was so easy to nail to the cross in T-Man's "Gorillas in the Mist" thread...