The IRS admits to targeting conservatives.

[Ibanez]

Is that it? Could it not be to get the 11 million illegal immigrants to come out of the darkness, become legal, pay taxes, get better wages and have them start paying back for all the services they use for free? The sales tax they pay when they buy a cheeseburger doesn't count as paying their share of taxes

95% of those 11 million have fake SSN's and pay taxes already. The lift from legalization won't even be noticeable. And 95% of them don't make enough money to have to worry about "paying back for all the services they use".

Source. I'm not saying you're wrong.

It's interesting that you acknowledge that these illegals pay taxes. I thought that was one of the arguements on the right: that these people come here, work for cheap (stealing jobs our lazy Americans wouldn't work), get paid under the table, use public roads, clinics, schools, etc... and all the while they don't pay taxes to support the public services they consume.

[AZGrizFan]

95% of those 11 million have fake SSN's and pay taxes already. The lift from legalization won't even be noticeable. And 95% of them don't make enough money to have to worry about "paying back for all the services they use".

Source. I'm not saying you're wrong.

It's interesting that you acknowledge that these illegals pay taxes. I thought that was one of the arguements on the right: that these people come here, work for cheap (stealing jobs our lazy Americans wouldn't work), get paid under the table, use public roads, clinics, schools, etc... and all the while they don't pay taxes to support the public services they consume.

Heres the financial issues: A large percentage of illegals have fake paperwork, thus have payroll taxes, social security, medicare etc taken out of their paycheck. The question is, are they filing tax returns, and are they able to actually COLLECT social security when the time comes, or is the gov't smart enough to figure out they're illegal? Also, a high percentage are in low paying jobs and a high percentage don't own property, thus they pay no school taxes, and tend to flood the assistance programs like welfare, foodstamps, low income healthcare programs, etc.

[Ibanez]

Source. I'm not saying you're wrong.

It's interesting that you acknowledge that these illegals pay taxes. I thought that was one of the arguements on the right: that these people come here, work for cheap (stealing jobs our lazy Americans wouldn't work), get paid under the table, use public roads, clinics, schools, etc... and all the while they don't pay taxes to support the public services they consume.

Heres the financial issues: A large percentage of illegals have fake paperwork, thus have payroll taxes, social security, medicare etc taken out of their paycheck. The question is, are they filing tax returns, and are they able to actually COLLECT social security when the time comes, or is the gov't smart enough to figure out they're illegal? Also, a high percentage are in low paying jobs and a high percentage don't own property, thus they pay no school taxes, and tend to flood the assistance programs like welfare, foodstamps, low income healthcare programs, etc.

I get it.Thanks. I think you and I are on the same page.

Btw, If they own a car in SC, they pay taxes which goes to the schools.

[AZGrizFan]

Heres the financial issues: A large percentage of illegals have fake paperwork, thus have payroll taxes, social security, medicare etc taken out of their paycheck. The question is, are they filing tax returns, and are they able to actually COLLECT social security when the time comes, or is the gov't smart enough to figure out they're illegal? Also, a high percentage are in low paying jobs and a high percentage don't own property, thus they pay no school taxes, and tend to flood the assistance programs like welfare, foodstamps, low income healthcare programs, etc.

I get it.Thanks. I think you and I are on the same page.

Btw, If they own a car in SC, they pay taxes which goes to the schools.

BTW, there are estimates that anywhere from 30-50% of illegals are actual "shadow" illegals who aren't paying any form of taxes...

[Ibanez]

I get it.Thanks. I think you and I are on the same page.

Btw, If they own a car in SC, they pay taxes which goes to the schools.

BTW, there are estimates that anywhere from 30-50% of illegals are actual "shadow" illegals who aren't paying any form of taxes...

I'm sure it'd be a boon for whichever parties champions immigration reform, but think of all those extra people paying into the system. 3,330,000 people is a lot. With an average salary of about $50k (average for landscapers and construction workers) paying about 22% in taxes, we can get about $36B in taxes from these people. Now, can we target their SSN's and use that money for a special purpose like improving infrastructure or paying down our debt?

[CitadelGrad]

BTW, there are estimates that anywhere from 30-50% of illegals are actual "shadow" illegals who aren't paying any form of taxes...

I'm sure it'd be a boon for whichever parties champions immigration reform, but think of all those extra people paying into the system. 3,330,000 people is a lot. With an average salary of about $50k (average for landscapers and construction workers) paying about 22% in taxes, we can get about $36B in taxes from these people. Now, can we target their SSN's and use that money for a special purpose like improving infrastructure or paying down our debt?

That's a nice scenario, but entirely unrealistic. Have you looked at the labor force decline? There aren't 3,330,000 jobs at 50k even available in the country. Construction is declining and has been for quite some time. It's absurd to believe that those three million plus will all find employment, and they certainly won't find it at $50k. The truth is that the vast majority of them will go on the dole.

[Ibanez]

I'm sure it'd be a boon for whichever parties champions immigration reform, but think of all those extra people paying into the system. 3,330,000 people is a lot. With an average salary of about $50k (average for landscapers and construction workers) paying about 22% in taxes, we can get about $36B in taxes from these people. Now, can we target their SSN's and use that money for a special purpose like improving infrastructure or paying down our debt?

That's a nice scenario, but entirely unrealistic. Have you looked at the labor force decline? There aren't 3,330,000 jobs at 50k even available in the country. Construction is declining and has been for quite some time. It's absurd to believe that those three million plus will all find employment, and they certainly won't find it at $50k. The truth is that the vast majority of them will go on the dole.

Home construction has been growing. Locally, that is true for residential and commercial. I know my scenario was optimistic, but look at what i'm saying: 3.3M people working jobs legally, getting a fair wage, will be good. Of course, that 3.3M isn't realistic. That includes children and old folks. With 3.8M jobs open (according to U.S. BLS) and the average wage slowly rising, it isn't beyond ridiculous. In California, the average weekly wage is $1,800. California has the most illegal immigrants and giving them some form of legal citizenship, could work it out in favor of more tax revenue.

• an increase of 162,000 construction workers, or 2.9 percent, compared to March 2012
• residential building and specialty trade contractors added 14,800 workers in March and 77,800 over 12 months
• nonresidential building and specialty trade contractors, along with heavy and civil engineering construction firms, grew employment by 3,000 in March and 84,400 since March 2012
• employment in public works construction remained flat or declined
• there was a drop of 3,500 employees in highway, street and bridge construction from February 2012 to February 2013 and a pickup of 1,000 in water and sewer system construction
• oil and gas pipeline construction employment soared by 16,300 and power and communication system construction employment jumped by 14,400

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/ ... l?page=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In April, average hourly earnings for all employees on private nonfarm
payrolls rose by 4 cents to $23.87. Over the year, average hourly
earnings have risen by 45 cents, or 1.9 percent. In April, average
hourly earnings of private-sector production and nonsupervisory
employees edged up by 2 cents to $20.06

U.S. BLS

It will take real leadership, which face it, we will never see from Democraps or Republican'ts.

I'll make the general comment, that many of those hardworking immigrants that can get get better wages will probably stick to working vice going on welfare like some of our citizens.

[CID1990]

Those 11 million newly legal immigrants will have the right to petition for their entire families as well. Each one of them will transmit an immigration benefit to their parents, their children, spouses, and siblings (and THEIR children and spouses). A very liberal estimate is that those 11 million will actually translate into somewhere within 45 million after the original 11 million naturalize.

The majority of there 11 million will absorb much more in public assistance than they will pay in taxes. These aren't exactly the captains of industry and science, here.

It is an absolute mess which could have been prevented with better border security, which is also going to wind up being ignored in the immigration reform bill.


Sent from the center of the universe.

Good point. Let me ask you this. Is border security the only and/or best way to protect the borders?

Spoiler: show

I say no. It's only part of the solution.

I forget where I read the statistic, but I think Obama has increased border patrols by 20% since 2008 (14% is on the southern border. I may have those numbers wrong, but it's close.)

Look at the 4,000 mile border between America and Canada, in 2009 7,000 people were arrested trying to illegal enter the USA. They were entering from a country with a strong,stable economy. That same year, 541,000 people were caught trying to illegally enter from Mexico. The answer to the illegal immigration problem is more than border security. Mexico has to grow stronger. I know not all illegal immigrants are Mexican.


http://immigration.procon.org/view.reso ... eID=000845" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

75% of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico or Latin American countries. If these countries had stronger economies and were more safe, would people be going so far out of their way to have a chance of something better in the USA? Surely, regional and economic stability is a huge factor to consider when asking why these people are coming here.

Historically, the U.S.-Canadian border has been seen as safer than the southern, the Canadian government, more stable and security-minded than Mexico's.

http://www.federaltimes.com/article/201 ... d-Security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Border security isn't just a wall. It is enforcement. If the public really knew what was going on with the people who do get caught at the border they would not be happy about it. Lots of these people do not get turned around. They get paroled into the country awaiting immigration proceedings and then they disappear. Then they get married. Then their spouses petition for them, and USCIS grants them waivers for their unlawful presence and admits them. This just one issue of many.

Residents of El Salvador are eligible for temporary protected status (TPS). 1/3 of the entire population of El Salvador is resident in the US. Why do they get TPS? Because of the civil war in El Salvador. You know- the war that ended in the early 1990s? Then, their advocates in Congress got TPS extended due to Hurricane Mitch. You know- the storm that occurred in 2004? TPS is still being approved. Now, just about every single citizen in El Salvador is now or will be entitled to an immigrant visa in the future.

The reason this stuff isn't in the limelight is because you're immediately a racist or a xenophobic for even suggesting that the US should stop being the safe haven for every country in the world that needs one. And nothing is going to change. I know it is impolitic to say, but by the time people realize the problem it is going to be much too late.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Ibanez]

Good point. Let me ask you this. Is border security the only and/or best way to protect the borders?

Spoiler: show

I say no. It's only part of the solution.

I forget where I read the statistic, but I think Obama has increased border patrols by 20% since 2008 (14% is on the southern border. I may have those numbers wrong, but it's close.)

Look at the 4,000 mile border between America and Canada, in 2009 7,000 people were arrested trying to illegal enter the USA. They were entering from a country with a strong,stable economy. That same year, 541,000 people were caught trying to illegally enter from Mexico. The answer to the illegal immigration problem is more than border security. Mexico has to grow stronger. I know not all illegal immigrants are Mexican.


http://immigration.procon.org/view.reso ... eID=000845" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

75% of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico or Latin American countries. If these countries had stronger economies and were more safe, would people be going so far out of their way to have a chance of something better in the USA? Surely, regional and economic stability is a huge factor to consider when asking why these people are coming here.



http://www.federaltimes.com/article/201 ... d-Security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Border security isn't just a wall. It is enforcement. If the public really knew what was going on with the people who do get caught at the border they would not be happy about it. Lots of these people do not get turned around. They get paroled into the country awaiting immigration proceedings and then they disappear. Then they get married. Then their spouses petition for them, and USCIS grants them waivers for their unlawful presence and admits them. This just one issue of many.

Residents of El Salvador are eligible for temporary protected status (TPS). 1/3 of the entire population of El Salvador is resident in the US. Why do they get TPS? Because of the civil war in El Salvador. You know- the war that ended in the early 1990s? Then, their advocates in Congress got TPS extended due to Hurricane Mitch. You know- the storm that occurred in 2004? TPS is still being approved. Now, just about every single citizen in El Salvador is now or will be entitled to an immigrant visa in the future.

The reason this stuff isn't in the limelight is because you're immediately a racist or a xenophobic for even suggesting that the US should stop being the safe haven for every country in the world that needs one. And nothing is going to change. I know it is impolitic to say, but by the time people realize the problem it is going to be much too late.


Sent from the center of the universe.

I know it's more than a wall/fence.

FWIW, i'm with you on the xenophobic charge. I tell my wife and parent's all the time that it isn't racists if it's the truth. Racism is a prejudice against a person of another race. Xenophobia is an irrational fear of foreigners. I'm with you, I see nothing wrong with saying the truth about the situation.

Spoiler: show

On a side note, are we using the word "phobia" correctly? I mean, a phobia is an irrational fear. Are homophobes and xenophones really fearful or do they just have a hatred? I dunno.

[death dealer]

On a side note, are we using the word "phobia" correctly? I mean, a phobia is an irrational fear. Are homophobes and xenophones really fearful or do they just have a hatred? I dunno.

In addition, is it fair to call it hatred if you morally disagree with someone? I philosophically, and generally disagree with most religious people on the basic facts of reality, but I don't hate them. Is it hatred to feel that you are superior to someone else, or that they are inferior to you? I find that the vast majority of the human race is inferior to me, with a few rare exceptions, but I don't hate you poor schmucks, I mostly pity you. The phobia and hate monikers get thrown around so blithely that they have lost their meaning or effectiveness as descriptive terms.

[Bronco]

-
Huzzah
Isn't there 4 thousand new IRS agents being hired to enforce Obama care?

[travelinman67]

IRS created "Special Project Team" consisting of "hundreds of lawyers" for the purpose of preventing Congress' access to IRS documents during investigation.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/ ... gress.html

More IRS outrage: Agency used 'hundreds of lawyers' to hide information from Congress

This makes Watergate look like Romper Room...

...and the DNC owned MSM run interference.

Makes me want to puke.

[dbackjon]

Yawn

[kalm]

Benghazi!

[93henfan]

[dbackjon]

Great movie!

[travelinman67]

So, y'all support weaponizing the IRS for political war.

Just checking.

Then you won't object when the next Bush 1 is elected and decides to target LGBT, Civil Rights, and Democrats for harassment and denial of civil liberties.

[dbackjon]

So, y'all support weaponizing the IRS for political war.

Just checking.

Then you won't object when the next Bush 1 is elected and decides to target LGBT, Civil Rights, and Democrats for harassment and denial of civil liberties.

Like Reagan/Bush I and Bush II did?

[travelinman67]

So, y'all support weaponizing the IRS for political war.

Just checking.

Then you won't object when the next Bush 1 is elected and decides to target LGBT, Civil Rights, and Democrats for harassment and denial of civil liberties.

Like Reagan/Bush I and Bush II did?

Link?

(BTW, I saved a copy of this thread so when you start whining about LGBT harassment and denial of civil liberties...)

[BDKJMU]

The answer to this is withhold funding & cut their budget. The IRS complains that they don't have enough $$, yet they are spending hundreds of millions implementing Obamacare. And now this. The House Republicans should find out how much they spent on this 'Special Project Team' of hundreds of lawyers in an attempt to obstruct an investigation, and cut their budget by that amount.

[kalm]

The answer to this is withhold funding & cut their budget. The IRS complains that they don't have enough $$, yet they are spending hundreds of millions implementing Obamacare. And now this. The House Republicans should find out how much they spent on this 'Special Project Team' of hundreds of lawyers in an attempt to obstruct an investigation, and cut their budget by that amount.

Exactly! Wanna bet if they will?

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

I fucking hate the IRS at this point. I have not had any issues with them on a personal nature but as an organization, they are assholes. You are accountable to them but there is no way to hold them accountable for anything. I currently have a congressional inquiry in to get an issue resolved. After it was opened was the first time I got a single damn phone call back from those assholes. If this is sounding like I am a little pissed at them, try dealing with them for almost 3 years and getting nowhere. The whole organization needs to be disbanded and rebuilt or just plain gotten rid of. They do not do their jobs and there is no dealing with them.

[BDKJMU]

The answer to this is withhold funding & cut their budget. The IRS complains that they don't have enough $$, yet they are spending hundreds of millions implementing Obamacare. And now this. The House Republicans should find out how much they spent on this 'Special Project Team' of hundreds of lawyers in an attempt to obstruct an investigation, and cut their budget by that amount.

Exactly! Wanna bet if they will?

Well, they actually did cut their budget in FY 2013 and 2014 due to both sequestration and in response to the IRS targeting conservative groups. This time though they probably won't do anything about it. The conk pussies + dems outnumber the conks who would do anything about it.