The End of Liberalism

[kalm]

AKA Sam Harris presents no solutions but is butt hurt that people don't agree with his every word.

TWO YEARS AGO I published a book highly critical of religion, “The End of Faith.” In it, I argued that the world’s major religions are genuinely incompatible, inevitably cause conflict and now prevent the emergence of a viable, global civilization. In response, I have received many thousands of letters and e-mails from priests, journalists, scientists, politicians, soldiers, rabbis, actors, aid workers, students — from people young and old who occupy every point on the spectrum of belief and nonbelief.

This has offered me a special opportunity to see how people of all creeds and political persuasions react when religion is criticized. I am here to report that liberals and conservatives respond very differently to the notion that religion can be a direct cause of human conflict.

This difference does not bode well for the future of liberalism.

http://m.samharris.org/blog/item/the-end-of-liberalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[andy7171]

As a person happy with my faith and not really on the liberal side. Why should I read that?

[houndawg]

I give up. Why?

[andy7171]

I did too. I didn't.

[Wedgebuster]

To quickly summarize, Increasingly, Americans will come to believe that the only people hard-headed enough to fight the religious lunatics of the Muslim world are the religious lunatics of the West. And, While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they aren’t

[Chizzang]

AKA Sam Harris presents no solutions but is butt hurt that people don't agree with his every word.

TWO YEARS AGO I published a book highly critical of religion, “The End of Faith.” In it, I argued that the world’s major religions are genuinely incompatible, inevitably cause conflict and now prevent the emergence of a viable, global civilization. In response, I have received many thousands of letters and e-mails from priests, journalists, scientists, politicians, soldiers, rabbis, actors, aid workers, students — from people young and old who occupy every point on the spectrum of belief and nonbelief.

This has offered me a special opportunity to see how people of all creeds and political persuasions react when religion is criticized. I am here to report that liberals and conservatives respond very differently to the notion that religion can be a direct cause of human conflict.

This difference does not bode well for the future of liberalism.

http://m.samharris.org/blog/item/the-end-of-liberalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sam Harris is the least 'Butt Hurt"
least reactive
least irrational
least emotional person I've every encountered



What I have noticed is that when he does criticize something
Its typically so accurate and so thoughtful and complete that it serves to cause a mountain of Apologetics

There is MUCH to criticize about liberalism
and much to criticize about conservatism
Unthinking Liberals and unthinking Conservatives are precisely why - we are where we are...

[JohnStOnge]

I'd like to see him contemplate the numbers of people killed in the name of officially atheist communist government. Believe me when I say that I am deeply concerned for the long term about Islam but Islam has a long way to go before it catches up with officially atheist communism in terms of numbers of people ruthlessly slaughtered. A LONG way to go.

I say that because he appears to be another one of those idiots...perhaps intelligent in many cases but still idiots...who think that if only we didn't have religion we'd have a more peaceful world. And they say that in spite of the obvious fact that the most prolific regimes in terms of slaughtering tens and maybe even hundreds of millions of people in the history of this planet were officially atheist regimes.

If he thinks all is going to be sweetness and light if ONLY religion were eliminated he's really kidding himself very badly.

[kalm]

AKA Sam Harris presents no solutions but is butt hurt that people don't agree with his every word.



http://m.samharris.org/blog/item/the-end-of-liberalism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sam Harris is the least 'Butt Hurt"
least reactive
least irrational
least emotional person I've every encountered



What I have noticed is that when he does criticize something
Its typically so accurate and so thoughtful and complete that it serves to cause a mountain of Apologetics

There is MUCH to criticize about liberalism
and much to criticize about conservatism
Unthinking Liberals and unthinking Conservatives are precisely why - we are where we are...

Maybe, but he's butt hurt here.

It's possible to recognize the danger of radical islam and support strategic intervention like we're currently doing with IS without fully succumbing to jingoism.

[JohnStOnge]

strategic intervention like we're currently doing

"Strategic intervention" sounds good but what is the strategy?

[kalm]

strategic intervention like we're currently doing

"Strategic intervention" sounds good but what is the strategy?

KIlling the bad guys from the air, providing minimal support on the ground, and getting concessions from Iran without going to war.

It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

[AZGrizFan]

"Strategic intervention" sounds good but what is the strategy?

KIlling the bad guys from the air, providing minimal support on the ground, and getting concessions from Iran without going to war.

It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

So, for 75 years Iran has been prevented from having nuclear weapons, but under Obama's watch they're getting nuclear weapons but somehow WE'RE getting concessions FROM Iran?

[Chizzang]

I'd like to see him contemplate the numbers of people killed in the name of officially atheist communist government. Believe me when I say that I am deeply concerned for the long term about Islam but Islam has a long way to go before it catches up with officially atheist communism in terms of numbers of people ruthlessly slaughtered. A LONG way to go.

I say that because he appears to be another one of those idiots...perhaps intelligent in many cases but still idiots...who think that if only we didn't have religion we'd have a more peaceful world. And they say that in spite of the obvious fact that the most prolific regimes in terms of slaughtering tens and maybe even hundreds of millions of people in the history of this planet were officially atheist regimes.

If he thinks all is going to be sweetness and light if ONLY religion were eliminated he's really kidding himself very badly.

John its completely obvious you have no clue what Sam Harris argues...
This is one area where YOU ARE quite literally "the idiot"



And secondly this article being debated is some 10 years old and still spot on...

[andy7171]

"Strategic intervention" sounds good but what is the strategy?

KIlling the bad guys from the air, providing minimal support on the ground, and getting concessions from Iran without going to war.

It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

[Chizzang]

"The most controversial thing I said was: “We have to be able to criticize bad ideas, and Islam is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” This statement has been met with countless charges of “bigotry” and “racism” online and in the media. But imagine that the year is 1970, and I said: “Communism is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” How reasonable would it be to attack me as a “racist” or as someone who harbors an irrational hatred of Russians, Ukrainians, Chinese, etc. This is precisely the situation I am in. My criticism of Islam is a criticism of beliefs and their consequences—but my fellow liberals reflexively view it as an expression of intolerance toward people."

a spot on analysis of this forum...



the punchline:
As I try to make clear in Waking Up, many positive states of mind, such as ecstasy, are ethically neutral. Which is to say that it really matters what you think the feeling of ecstasy means. If you think it means that the Creator of the Universe is rewarding you for having purged your village of Christians, you are ISIS material. Other bearded young men go to Burning Man, find themselves surrounded by naked women in Day-Glo body paint, and experience a similar state of mind."

"But what do you think would happen if we had burned a copy of the Koran on tonight’s show? There would be riots in scores of countries. Embassies would fall. In response to our mistreating a book, millions of Muslims would take to the streets, and we would spend the rest of our lives fending off credible threats of murder. But when ISIS crucifies people, buries children alive, and rapes and tortures women by the thousands—all in the name of Islam—the response is a few small demonstrations in Europe and a hashtag.” I don’t think I’m being uncharitable when I say that neither Affleck nor Kristof had an intelligent response to this. Nor did they pretend to doubt the truth of what I said."

[kalm]

"The most controversial thing I said was: “We have to be able to criticize bad ideas, and Islam is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” This statement has been met with countless charges of “bigotry” and “racism” online and in the media. But imagine that the year is 1970, and I said: “Communism is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” How reasonable would it be to attack me as a “racist” or as someone who harbors an irrational hatred of Russians, Ukrainians, Chinese, etc. This is precisely the situation I am in. My criticism of Islam is a criticism of beliefs and their consequences—but my fellow liberals reflexively view it as an expression of intolerance toward people."

a spot on analysis of this forum...



the punchline:
As I try to make clear in Waking Up, many positive states of mind, such as ecstasy, are ethically neutral. Which is to say that it really matters what you think the feeling of ecstasy means. If you think it means that the Creator of the Universe is rewarding you for having purged your village of Christians, you are ISIS material. Other bearded young men go to Burning Man, find themselves surrounded by naked women in Day-Glo body paint, and experience a similar state of mind."

"But what do you think would happen if we had burned a copy of the Koran on tonight’s show? There would be riots in scores of countries. Embassies would fall. In response to our mistreating a book, millions of Muslims would take to the streets, and we would spend the rest of our lives fending off credible threats of murder. But when ISIS crucifies people, buries children alive, and rapes and tortures women by the thousands—all in the name of Islam—the response is a few small demonstrations in Europe and a hashtag.” I don’t think I’m being uncharitable when I say that neither Affleck nor Kristof had an intelligent response to this. Nor did they pretend to doubt the truth of what I said."

Again, more closed-minded butt hurt.

Is Islam dangerous? Hell yeah. Are there murderous thugs and a few leaders that need to be taken out? Yes. But I don't see where Harris's view of Islam or for that matter liberalism's take on it (as though liberalism and Islam are monolithic) is beneficial or even all that accurate. He has an opinion and many of his points are valid, but he also has a tendency to lump everyone and everything together and get hyperbolic.

Terry Jones burning a bunch of Korans and an ISIS flag last September 11th and I don't recall millions taking to the streets or embassies falling.



Iranians are allowed to watch Obama and Kerry on TV for the first time:


faren ✔ @farentaghizadeh
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Hosein from Iran is really happy today! #IranTalksLausanne @JohnKerry
11:58 AM - 2 Apr 2015


Holly Dagres @hdagres
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Friend of mine in #Iran pinching #Obama's cheek out of sheer joy #IranTalks
12:19 PM - 2 Apr 2015

Those radical bastards!

[kalm]

KIlling the bad guys from the air, providing minimal support on the ground, and getting concessions from Iran without going to war.

It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

Yeah, Andy, there's nothing of interest here for you.

(Reuters) - Pope Francis said on Sunday that equating Islam with violence was wrong and called on Muslim leaders to issue a global condemnation of terrorism to help dispel the stereotype.

Francis, the leader of 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, told reporters aboard his plane returning from a visit to Turkey that he understood why Muslims were offended by many in the West who automatically equated their religion with terrorism.

[kalm]

KIlling the bad guys from the air, providing minimal support on the ground, and getting concessions from Iran without going to war.

It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

So, for 75 years Iran has been prevented from having nuclear weapons, but under Obama's watch they're getting nuclear weapons but somehow WE'RE getting concessions FROM Iran?

That's right. Their desire to get the bomb started on Jan 20th, 2009.

[andy7171]

Yeah, Andy, there's nothing of interest here for you.

(Reuters) - Pope Francis said on Sunday that equating Islam with violence was wrong and called on Muslim leaders to issue a global condemnation of terrorism to help dispel the stereotype.

Francis, the leader of 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, told reporters aboard his plane returning from a visit to Turkey that he understood why Muslims were offended by many in the West who automatically equated their religion with terrorism.

When did I ever equate all of Islam with terrorism?

I found your notion of Strategic Intervention comical.

[andy7171]

Also, the Pope doesn't talk for me. Although this current one is doing a good job at it.

[Baldy]

Nothing to see here. kalm is right, Islam is cool and all...

Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam

Many respondents reject the stricter laws and punishments for which sharia is often, fairly or unfairly, known in the West. In other words, just because some people say they support sharia law does not mean they want to make their neighbors live in a 9th-century-style caliphate. Still, amid an otherwise innocuous or even reassuring report, Pew's study found some disturbing details. One that jumped out for me was the alarmingly high share of Muslims in some Middle Eastern and South Asian countries who say they support the death penalty for any Muslim who leaves the faith or converts to another. In fact, according to the 2013 Pew Research Center report, 88 percent of Muslims in Egypt and 62 percent of Muslims in Pakistan favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion. This is also the majority view among Muslims in Malaysia, Jordan and the Palestinian territories.

Muslins polled say they are concerned about 'extremists' in their religion, but with disturbing numbers like these, those people need to start looking into the mirror is they are worried about extremists hijacking their religion. Is there any wonder why we barley hear anything out of the so-called "moderates" condemning the extremists?

However, the real threat are those fundie christians in their little pizzeria of hate in rural Indiana.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... -polls.htm

[kalm]

Yeah, Andy, there's nothing of interest here for you.

When did I ever equate all of Islam with terrorism?

I found your notion of Strategic Intervention comical.

OK, strike strategic.

We have flown hundreds if not 1000's of missions against IS since last summer. We are advising and supporting Iraqi troops on the ground in a limited capacity.

How would you prefer we deal with it?

[andy7171]

When did I ever equate all of Islam with terrorism?

I found your notion of Strategic Intervention comical.

OK, strike strategic.

We have flown hundreds if not 1000's of missions against IS since last summer. We are advising and supporting Iraqi troops on the ground in a limited capacity.

How would you prefer we deal with it?

By not fight against the same group, you choose, in one part of the world and with it in another?

[ASUG8]

I tend to not want to hang out with people who have professed a desire to kill me for either my different beliefs or lack of common beliefs.

[kalm]

I tend to not want to hang out with people who have professed a desire to kill me for either my different beliefs or lack of common beliefs.

Me too. I also kind of don't want to give them weapons and military support.

[andy7171]

I tend to not want to hang out with people who have professed a desire to kill me for either my different beliefs or lack of common beliefs.

Me too. I also kind of don't want to give them weapons and military support.

And yet you suppor....I give up. Kalm is wise beyond his years.