Alabama and Nullification:

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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by Skjellyfetti »

JohnStOnge wrote: People who have deep religious objections to seeing homosexual relationships as "marriage" are FORCED to participate in what they consider to be sinful.
I don't think anyone is arguing for gay rape to be legal. No one is forcing you to participate in homosexuality. ;)

JohnStOnge wrote: That is not necessarily the result of action on the part of judges. But it's a true denial of one of the most fundamental Constitutional principles. Government tells people that they must choose between being in business and engaging in commerce and adhering to their religious beliefs. They are not allowed to do both. And I'm not talking about circumstances where their religious beliefs dictate positive attacks on others. Nothing like human sacrifice or killing infidels involved. I'm talking about taking away their choice to simply not participate in activity they consider to be sinful.
So, anything that is a sin should not be 'condoned' through legality? The list of things that may be against people's religions is VAST. What's your take on divorce for instance? And, this is political correctness to an extreme that I still can't imagine you actually support. :?
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

BTW, one thing that does bother me is what I see is the action by a scientific field to make a pronouncement on the basis of egalitarian philosophy rather than objective assessment. I think it was well intentioned, but I think it was very wrong. It created the aura of "scientific validation" for one side of a sociological debate when the decision wasn't based on science at all. They simply defined psychiatric disorder in a way they thought would exclude homosexuality then proclaimed that homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder.

I do not think it was a situation in which they just objectively found that homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder because some new evidence came to light or anything like that. It was a situation in which a critical mass of them decided first that they did not want homosexuality to be a psychiatric disorder and set about creating the circumstances for declaring that it's not.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by Grizalltheway »

JohnStOnge wrote:
I do not think it was a situation in which they just objectively found that homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder because some new evidence came to light or anything like that. It was a situation in which a critical mass of them decided first that they did not want homosexuality to be a psychiatric disorder and set about creating the circumstances for declaring that it's not.
For all the times you've repeated this, you've never offered anything resembling proof that it's actually the case.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

I don't think anyone is arguing for gay rape to be legal. No one is forcing you to participate in homosexuality. ;)
You know what I"m talking about. The most publicized is example is that of the florist told that if they want to continue their business they must participate is validating homosexual marriage. So they have to make a decision between their faith and their livelihood.
So, anything that is a sin should not be 'condoned' through legality? The list of things that may be against people's religions is VAST. What's your take on divorce for instance? And, this is political correctness to an extreme that I still can't imagine you actually support.
I have no problem with divorce being illegal. However, I do not think someone should be forced to "recognize" it in their personal dealings. For example: Say someone believes that if a person is married that's it. They're married for life and if they get a divorce and then get married again that's a sin. Let's say this someone is a florist. That someone should not be told by government that they either have to provide services to the divorced person if they want to get married again or not be in business.

Of course I also believe it's wrong in general for government to be telling private businesses that they have to do business with people they don't want to do business with regardless of the reason. You shouldn't have to choose between making a living the way you want to make a living and accounting to government with respect to who you engage in commerce with. It is...or at least should be...absolutely none of government's business.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by houndawg »

Grizalltheway wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
I do not think it was a situation in which they just objectively found that homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder because some new evidence came to light or anything like that. It was a situation in which a critical mass of them decided first that they did not want homosexuality to be a psychiatric disorder and set about creating the circumstances for declaring that it's not.
For all the times you've repeated this, you've never offered anything resembling proof that it's actually the case.
It gives him a chance to get all drama-queen. I swear my teenaged daughter wasn't nearly the drama-queen that John is. :ohno: :coffee:
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

For all the times you've repeated this, you've never offered anything resembling proof that it's actually the case.
I don't think I've ever posted anything that could be considered absolute "proof." After all, how can you "prove" what peoples' motivations are? But I have, in the past, posted links to arguments for what I believe. And I've done things like posted the seminal paper on the idea by Evelyn Hooker. I pointed both to the problems with the paper and the obvious bias reflected in the Editorial note in the Journal.

I'm on a computer that doesn't have that stuff bookmarked now. I'd have to boot up my old computer to make it easy to get to the stuff I've linked on a number of occasions before. Maybe I will at some point if you insist.

But the bottom line is: Yes, I have posted references in support of my position on this matter before.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by Chizzang »

This thread just keeps getting stranger... and more hilarious
John you absolutely are my favorite poster on here

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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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Chizzang wrote:This thread just keeps getting stranger... and more hilarious
John you absolutely are my favorite poster on here

:notworthy:
I usually reserve that honor for people who challenge my way of thinking

John's challenging alright
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
John, I'll pose the same question I asked earlier. Suppose gays get all the same rights and a state declares marriage as only being between a man and a women. What if a certain church attempts to ordain a gay marriage anyway? What happens? Is it against the law? How does the state not recognize it in this instance?
As I've written before I think the current situation is such that maybe it's time for us to eliminate "marriage" as a civil institution and leave it up to various churches. In any case there is nothing stopping a church from having a marriage ceremony and considering two people to be married in the eyes of their deity. That does not require a civil license.
This isn't about constitutional rights for you. You find homosexuality gross and similar to all fundies, feel everyone should think the same as you. It's about mind control, John. It really is....
If you were right I would not oppose laws against homosexual behavior as I do. I've said many times that I think people should be free to engage in homosexual behavior if they want to.

And as I've written before what you have here is people being FORCED to recognize homosexual behavior as having a certain status when they don't want to. And I'm not just talking about people individually. I'm talking about people doing things like going through the public initiative process and getting marriage defined in a certain way completely through the democratic process and having their will nixed by unelected Federal judges.

What's REALLY bad is what happens next: People who have deep religious objections to seeing homosexual relationships as "marriage" are FORCED to participate in what they consider to be sinful. That is not necessarily the result of action on the part of judges. But it's a true denial of one of the most fundamental Constitutional principles. Government tells people that they must choose between being in business and engaging in commerce and adhering to their religious beliefs. They are not allowed to do both. And I'm not talking about circumstances where their religious beliefs dictate positive attacks on others. Nothing like human sacrifice or killing infidels involved. I'm talking about taking away their choice to simply not participate in activity they consider to be sinful.
So if marriage is eliminated as a civil union and hetero married couples do not have any more rights than gay married couples would, you'd be ok with that? You don't think Alabama would find a need to ban gay marriages?

I kind of see your point regarding businesses, but refusing service based on sexual orientation is kind of silly don't you think? I mean there are many sinful practices out there. Do you stand at your cash register with the bible open and ask each customer whether they've consumed shellfish or plowed their fields in the right direction?
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by houndawg »

JohnStOnge wrote:BTW, one thing that does bother me is what I see is the action by a scientific field to make a pronouncement on the basis of egalitarian philosophy rather than objective assessment. I think it was well intentioned, but I think it was very wrong. It created the aura of "scientific validation" for one side of a sociological debate when the decision wasn't based on science at all. They simply defined psychiatric disorder in a way they thought would exclude homosexuality then proclaimed that homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder.

I do not think it was a situation in which they just objectively found that homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder because some new evidence came to light or anything like that. It was a situation in which a critical mass of them decided first that they did not want homosexuality to be a psychiatric disorder and set about creating the circumstances for declaring that it's not.
:rofl:

Trying to create an aura of scientific validation for your fundamentalist beliefs is your whole schtik, John. I assume you learned it from your pals over at Stormfront?
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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JohnStOnge wrote:
I don't think anyone is arguing for gay rape to be legal. No one is forcing you to participate in homosexuality. ;)
You know what I"m talking about. The most publicized is example is that of the florist told that if they want to continue their business they must participate is validating homosexual marriage. So they have to make a decision between their faith and their livelihood.
So, anything that is a sin should not be 'condoned' through legality? The list of things that may be against people's religions is VAST. What's your take on divorce for instance? And, this is political correctness to an extreme that I still can't imagine you actually support.
I have no problem with divorce being illegal. However, I do not think someone should be forced to "recognize" it in their personal dealings. For example: Say someone believes that if a person is married that's it. They're married for life and if they get a divorce and then get married again that's a sin. Let's say this someone is a florist. That someone should not be told by government that they either have to provide services to the divorced person if they want to get married again or not be in business.

Of course I also believe it's wrong in general for government to be telling private businesses that they have to do business with people they don't want to do business with regardless of the reason. You shouldn't have to choose between making a living the way you want to make a living and accounting to government with respect to who you engage in commerce with. It is...or at least should be...absolutely none of government's business.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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If you guys are really interested here is one article that reflects my point of view on the history:

http://www.narth.org/docs/normalization.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, you can find plenty of ad hominem attacks against NARTH. But the important point here is the discussion of the discussion of changing the way in which a psychiatric disorder is defined. I don't think you will find disagreement on the point that it happened. It's not like an objective "scientific" conclusion. Not like, say, somebody doing an experiment where they predict the effect of gravity then the measurements of the experiment are consistent with their predictions. Not an objective thing. It was entirely subjective.

It's given the aura of science but it's not really science. The general public thinks that there was some scientific epiphany whereby it was discovered that homosexuality is not a disorder. And that's not what happened. It was a subjective, philosophical thing.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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Now I'll post a link to the seminal study I was talking about with the editorial note:

http://www.well.com/~aquarius/hooker.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't see how anyone can possibly read that editorial note and see that there was a strong bias. And the study design is horrible. Early on the author mentions that there are no assumptions about the random representation of either group. Maybe that's why the editorial note mentions that she hesitated to publish. But the "findings" are not "well substantiated" as the editorial note suggests. There are all SORTS of problems with the paper.

The author carefully selected only homosexuals and heterosexuals who did not show problems to begin with then made a big deal out generally not finding problems. And the technique for measuring problems was obviously virtually useless. She talked about a low level of correspondence between two people who blindly applied it and tried to make it sound good. But the bottom line is that it's obvious that she didn't have good measurements.

That paper is a cornerstone of where we are right now. It was published because of the bias that's evident in that editorial note. It's total crap. And it's a cornerstone.

If you doubt that, see https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-m ... hooker-phd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Hooker’s influential study on the issue, first published in 1957 in the Journal of Projective Techniques, was and still is presented as proof that homosexual activity is normal and as valid a lifestyle as heterosexuality.
You've heard the term "junk science." I'm telling you guys, that paper is junk science to the extreme. But it's what people in the field at the time wanted to hear so they embraced it.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

A follow up. I was trying to think of something that would be a good analogy to what Hooker did in that paper. She started off by carefully selecting the study subjects to make sure there was no evidence of maladjustment.

And she made this statement:
there is no inherent connection between pathology and homosexuality.
First of all, that quote assumes that homosexuality is not itself a pathology. But beyond that, it's like this:

Suppose I wanted to do a study to decide if there is a "connection" between Black ancestry and Cycle Cell Anemia. Suppose I start off by selecting 30 Black subjects and 30 White subjects to see if there is a higher incidence of Cycle Cell Anemia among Blacks. BUT, as part of the selection process, I exclude anybody that has been diagnosed as having Cycle Cell Anemia.

Do you think that not finding a difference in the incidence of Cycle Cell Anemia between the two groups means anything?

That is basically the kind of thing what Dr. Hooker did in her study. If the peer review publication process was a serious quality control process that study would never have been published. It is TOTAL crap. But it's at the foundation of the "normalization of homosexuality" movement.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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JohnStOnge wrote:Now I'll post a link to the seminal study I was talking about with the editorial note:

http://www.well.com/~aquarius/hooker.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't see how anyone can possibly read that editorial note and see that there was a strong bias. And the study design is horrible. Early on the author mentions that there are no assumptions about the random representation of either group. Maybe that's why the editorial note mentions that she hesitated to publish. But the "findings" are not "well substantiated" as the editorial note suggests. There are all SORTS of problems with the paper.

The author carefully selected only homosexuals and heterosexuals who did not show problems to begin with then made a big deal out generally not finding problems. And the technique for measuring problems was obviously virtually useless. She talked about a low level of correspondence between two people who blindly applied it and tried to make it sound good. But the bottom line is that it's obvious that she didn't have good measurements.

That paper is a cornerstone of where we are right now. It was published because of the bias that's evident in that editorial note. It's total crap. And it's a cornerstone.

If you doubt that, see https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-m ... hooker-phd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Hooker’s influential study on the issue, first published in 1957 in the Journal of Projective Techniques, was and still is presented as proof that homosexual activity is normal and as valid a lifestyle as heterosexuality.
You've heard the term "junk science." I'm telling you guys, that paper is junk science to the extreme. But it's what people in the field at the time wanted to hear so they embraced it.
Why don't you share your scientific credentials with us so we can make a judgement about whether or not you know doodly squat about science? Maybe a few highlights from your cv? Published papers in recognized scientific journals, that sort of stuff? It would go a long way toward making you look less like a poseur....
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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Why don't you share your scientific credentials with us so we can make a judgement about whether or not you know doodly squat about science? Maybe a few highlights from your cv? Published papers in recognized scientific journals, that sort of stuff? It would go a long way toward making you look less like a poseur….
You should not need to rely on my scientific credentials to see that there are problems with that paper. Here is the link again: http://www.well.com/~aquarius/hooker.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

Do a "find" on "subjects were eliminated." You will find this language:
n both groups subjects were eliminated who were in therapy at the time. If, in the preliminary screening, evidence of considerable disturbance appeared, the individual was eliminated
So she started off ensuring that nobody who showed evidence of problems was included in the study. Then she had them assessed using a "measurement" whereby people were assigned a score of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. She had two people apply the measurement independently. She characterized the situation in which the results generated by the two people who applied the tests were in high agreement:
Table III shows that the two judges agreed exactly in 19 of the 60 cases, 8 being homosexual and 11 heterosexual. In 23 cases they disagreed by one rating step, 12 of these being homosexual and 11 heterosexual. This means that in 42 out of the 60 cases there was either exact agreement or disagreement by only one step. So it is safe to say that in two-thirds of the total distribution there is high agreement.
But one rating step is 20% of the range of possible results. What that means is that the two experts differed by at least 20% of the range of the scale 68% of the time. Additionally, if you look at the referenced Table III you can see that they differed by at least 40% of the range of the scale 30% of the time.

How could you possibly see that as being a measurement that provides an adequate level of resolution? Does one need scientific credentials to make such a judgement. You'll just have to take my word for it when I tell you that when you have limited resolution in your measurements it lowers the odds of getting a "significant" difference when you apply a statistical hypothesis test. Or you might be able to just see that yourself as well if you think about it.

So you should be able to see for yourself that she selected subjects that maximized the odds of her not seeing people with adjustment problems in either group, applied a test so that two experts differed on their measurements by at least 20% of the range of possible measurements most of the time and by at least 40% about a third of the time then declared that it really meant something that she didn't get "significant" differences in the scores between the groups.

There's more.

I could say anything I wanted about my scientific credentials, btw. This is the internet. What I try to do is back up what I say with stuff you can look at. Like I have done things like paste a discussion of experimental and observational studies from a statistics test to back up my assertion that a controlled experiment is necessary for inferring cause and effect and past links to the pages showing the steps of the scientific method to back up my position on the role of experimentation in the scientific method.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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Another thing I've posted before. It bears upon this idea that peer review journals are these sacred bastions of scientific objectivity and quality:

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/lingua_franca_v4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically, a physicist did an "experiment" in which he submitted something he knew to be nonsense but which he thought would flatter the outlooks of the journal editors to see if they would publish it. Here is how it went:
So, to test the prevailing intellectual standards, I decided to try a modest (though admittedly uncontrolled) experiment: Would a leading North American journal of cultural studies -- whose editorial collective includes such luminaries as Fredric Jameson and Andrew Ross -- publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors' ideological preconceptions?

The answer, unfortunately, is yes. Interested readers can find my article, ``Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity,'' in the Spring/Summer 1996 issue of Social Text. It appears in a special number of the magazine devoted to the ``Science Wars.''
That's just a single case where it's pretty clear cut and, in general, there's no way to prove people who decide on what goes in journals are biased. But look at that editorial note preceding that Hooker paper again:
Editorial Note: It is an uncommon event in these days of compulsive publication to discover an author who has worked diligently and with great detail and who hesitates to publish well-substantiated findings until proof is virtually incontrovertible. A study such as Dr. Hooker's challenges several wide-spread and emotional convictions. In view of the importance of her findings it seemed desirable to the editors that they be made public, even in their preliminary form. If some of Dr. Hooker's cautiously presented as they are, seem premature or incompletely documented, the blame must fall on the editors who exercised considerable pressure on her to publish now. -BRF
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that affects bias. It's not unreasonable to think that Dr. Hooker conducted a study that flattered the philosophical positions of the editors just as the physicist's intentionally nonsensical paper flattered the philosophical positions of the cultural studies journal. Can't prove it. But the gushing editorial note sure as heck makes it easy to believe.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

I thought of an even better illustration. I do a study to see if there's an association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.

I go out and find 30 people who smoke and 30 people who don't smoke. But before they're in the study I have to take a look at them. I make sure they haven't been diagnosed with lung cancer and appear to be in good health.

Then I apply a test for lung cancer to each. But it's not a real precise test. It's wrong about 30% of the time. It can be wrong by indicating that a subject has lung cancer when he or she doesn't or it can be wrong by indicating that a subject does not have lung cancer when they really do.

I do a statistical test to see if there is a "significant" difference in the rates at which my test showed that people had lung cancer between the groups. I do not get a "significant" difference. I state, "There is obviously no connection between cigarette smoking and lung cancer."

You going to buy that?

And, I'm telling you, if you read that Hooker study that's how it went. Read it yourself and you will see.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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Man. Kalmy loves to work the Old Testament into his anti-religious views!
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

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andy7171 wrote:Man. Kalmy loves to work the Old Testament into his anti-religious views!
That's because JSO is OT type of folk!
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by Skjellyfetti »

JohnStOnge wrote:Another thing I've posted before. It bears upon this idea that peer review journals are these sacred bastions of scientific objectivity and quality:

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/lingua_franca_v4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically, a physicist did an "experiment" in which he submitted something he knew to be nonsense but which he thought would flatter the outlooks of the journal editors to see if they would publish it. Here is how it went:
That journal wasn't a peer review journal at the time. His paper was not sent to any relevant researchers in the field.

It certainly reflects the humanities's academese masturbation, though. But, it's irrelevant to a discussion on peer review.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

That journal wasn't a peer review journal at the time. His paper was not sent to any relevant researchers in the field.
Ok I looked it up and it looks like you are correct. At least that's what Wikipedia says and on this one I'll assume Wikipedia is correct. But it doesn't change that fact that the Hooker paper is junk.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by houndawg »

You still haven't answered the question John. :coffee:
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

houndawg wrote:You still haven't answered the question John. :coffee:
If you're talking about my "credentials" I had written a response specifically describing a number of things in my experience and publication history here but decided to come back and delete that and replace it with comments focusing more on one episode. I WILL say that since I said "publication"history" and don't want to create the impression that I've got an extensive one I'll clarify by saying I have never sought to publish and have never been a lead author. Right now I can just think of four published papers such that I am listed as a contributing author because the lead author enlisted by assistance in data analysis or environmental investigation. Seems like there's a fifth one....some dim memory of that in my mind...but right now if there is I can't specifically remember it.

I've been working in the biological and environmental science fields for 31 years now. But I do "applied science," not publication. An important aspect of that, though, is that I USE peer review journal published literature all the time. And when you actually try to apply what's in that literature and there are problems with it you see it.

As an example: I was given responsible for assessing a new fishery once. The fishery consisted of one "type" of animal but there were actually three species. All three species are protandrous hermaphrodites; meaning that they first sexually mature as one sex then develop into the other sex as they grow larger. They are males first then turn into females. So the females are larger. Among other things, I needed to look at average size and the ratio of females to males of each species being processed as well as the proportion of the catch consisting of each species.

I looked at the literature for previous surveys. I found some and immediately saw that there were problems. I designed my own survey and implemented it. I presented the results to a joint meeting of two State chapters of the American Fisheries society. My presentation won the "Best Presentation" award.

And it was about how the flawed survey approaches in the literature resulted in OVER estimating the average size and well as the female: male ratio in each species. I even saw a reason for it. The previous surveys involved people doing what they called "random" sampling of containers of product. They'd kind of haphazardly take individuals from the containers off the top. Easiest thing to do.

But fishermen were paid according to the count size. The bigger the animals (smaller the count) the more they got per pound. And that was a problem. One difference between my survey and the others, among several key differences, is that I would empty each container then systematically sample from the entire set of animals. For example, if there were 300 animals in the container I would do something like randomly select a number in the range 1 through 10, start putting the animals back into the container while counting, keep the one corresponding to the randomly selected number aside for my sample, then continue on while taking every 10th animal after that.

As a result I saw everything in each container I sampled (which was also determined by a systematic strategy incorporating randomization). And what was happening is that the bigger animals were at the tops of the containers. The fishermen were apparently making sure to put the larger animals at the top so that when the buyer checked the count size he based it on the bigger individuals in the container. So if you did what was done in the existing literature you got fooled just like the buyer of the product got fooled. That meant existing literature over estimated the average size of animals of each species and over estimated the female:male ratio. They also over estimated the proportion of landings accounted for by one species because, though it was relatively rare, individuals in it were substantially larger than those in the other two species.

I am guessing that if I'd submitted a manuscript on my survey for publication it would've been published. It certainly was a lot better than any of the surveys I saw in the existing literature. But it's not what I do. The survey was done because I needed information and I did not think what was already in the literature was accurate. I did it to get accurate information for decision making purposes. And that's pretty much my thought process in everything I do.

I know that's a lot of detail on one thing in my experience but it's by no means the only time I've run into issues in trying to apply what's in published literature. My primary "credential" when it comes to this sort of thing is real life experience along the lines of what I described above with respect to that survey. My job is such that you do applied science to make actual decisions then get to see if you were right or not in the real world. And I've been doing it for more than 30 years.
Last edited by JohnStOnge on Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alabama and Nullification:

Post by JohnStOnge »

Besides Houndawg, just assume I've spent the past 30 years working as a cashier at McDonald's and have no "scientific" experience at all.

You can read Hooker paper I linked. Did Dr. Hooker carefully select her subjects so as to exclude people who had adjustment problems or did she not?

Also, did she not use a test whereby the two experts who applied it only exactly agreed on 19 of 60 subjects and also disagreed by at least 2 points on a five point scale on 18 of 60 (30%) cases?

And really the test imprecision is secondary. As soon as she pre selected the subjects so as to exclude people with adjustment problems she rendered her study pointless. Can you not see that, regardless of what my own "credentials" are? You're going to screen subjects to exclude people who have adjustment problems from each of two groups, compare the groups, then make a big deal out of not finding "significant" differences between adjustment levels among the two groups? Really? I mean c'mon. Surely you can see the problem with that.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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