David Johnson vs Zack Zenner

[dbackjon]

Who will be the better pro, and why?

[clenz]

DJ...not even close.

DJ is so much more versatile than Zenner.

Zenner vs DJ when it comes to pass blocking, route running, pass catching, kick returning, etc... isn't even close.

Oh...and DJ is faster, bigger, stronger, etc... all tangible numbers that will get him more chances to succeed.

[Grizalltheway]

Johnson, 'cause black.

[dbackjon]

DJ

Career Rushing/Receiving Stats

Year Team G Rush Yds Yd/Rush TDs Rec Yds Yd/Rec TDs
2010 NoIa 1 0 0 - 0 0 0 - 0
2011 NoIa 13 179 822 4.6 9 33 422 12.8 3
2012 NoIa 11 178 1021 5.7 13 32 383 12.0 5
2013 NoIa 11 222 1286 5.8 10 38 393 10.3 4
2014 NoIa 14 287 1553 5.4 17 38 536 14.1 2
Career 50 866 4682 5.4 49 141 1734 12.3 14

Career Returning Stats

Year Team G Punt Returns Yds Avg TDs Kick Returns Yds Avg TDs
2014 NoIa 14 0 0 - 0 12 438 36.5 1
Career 50 0 0 - 0 12 438 36.5 1


ZZ

Career Rushing/Receiving Stats

Year Team G Rush Yds Yd/Rush TDs Rec Yds Yd/Rec TDs
2011 SDkSt 11 107 470 4.4 3 18 130 7.2 2
2012 SDkSt 13 300 2044 6.8 13 28 197 7.0 0
2013 SDkSt 14 351 2015 5.7 23 21 251 12.0 2
2014 SDkSt 14 337 2019 6.0 22 28 331 11.8 4
Career 52 1095 6548 6.0 61 95 909 9.6 8

Career Returning Stats

Year Team G Punt Returns Yds Avg TDs Kick Returns Yds Avg TDs
2011 SDkSt 11 0 0 - 0 31 754 24.3 0
2012 SDkSt 13 0 0 - 0 1 0 0.0 0
Career 52 0 0 - 0 32 754 23.6 0


Zenner didn't really return kicks after his Freshman year.



Stat wise Zenner had better years - is that due to the offense that each team ran?

Cardinals need a running back - DJ has been projected as a possible third round pick by the Cards. Question was asked on my Cardinals board why DJ is projected so much higher than Zenner.

[clenz]

They were used in different ways.

DJ is a MUCH..MUCH..more versatile player. You can't line ZZ up anywhere other than tailback and he isn't going to be in on passing downs because his pass blocking, route running, etc... are very suspect.

DJ was recruited as a WR. At 6'2 225lb with a 4.5 40 and 41.5" vert he can line up at WR, RB, TE/wing and be a match up night mare.

I'm really...really...praying the Vikings take DJ in the third round.

Zenner is a lot like Alstott, but faster in style.
DJ is a lot like Demarco


The offensive line that DJ played behind for 3 years was atrocious. He was getting hit 3-4 yards in the back field on most of his handoffs and making the plays. It was also painfully obvious when he was going to get the ball and where the play was going - for a number of reasons.

[clenz]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCBm1c2Am-I[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjRwXHZ6LtQ[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdpotA_4DS4[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOtekCFR2y8[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWF6trBB9yg[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swz1ieZNSEA[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxC1LvZ5hSM[/youtube]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl- ... id-johnson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What's funny is reading his limitations and watching his video are two very different things.


https://screen.yahoo.com/mayocks-slant- ... 02944.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even Mayock made note of his shake and speed...he RAN AWAY from people all over the field, no matter the team.

[JohnStOnge]

I think it's obvious that pro Scouts consider Johnson to be the better prospect. Some of the stuff I've seen suggests that his receiving ability is very highly rated. It's interesting to me that it was stated that he was recruited as a receiver because I've actually thought he could be a prospect at wide receiver in the NFL. That's how good I think he is at running downfield as a receiver.

On the other hand, there is very little doubt that Zenner was more of a "home run" threat running the football during college. And Clenz making me look into it more just convinced me of that more. There's stuff I haven't even posted yet in that other thread about this. Zenner was CLEARLY a bigger "home run" threat running the football at the college level and it's not close.

You can just watch the first 30 seconds of the first video below to see the 40 yard TD run against Nebraska and the 75 yard TD run against Missouri. I'll go ahead and post the 99 yard TD run against Kansas too. The longest run Johnson ever had against that level of competition is 37 yards. Johnson had 1 run of 80 or more yards in his college career. Zenner had at least 6. I'm telling you, it's not close with respect to which back was more of a "home run threat" running the football during their college careers.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XNrnj9vXU8[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qfjsPMMao[/youtube]

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

DJ probably will but who knows.

[andy7171]

Just by looking at those clips, DJ. Just based on size. Also, because clenzy is completely gay for him.

But what do I know.

[HI54UNI]

DJ is the real deal and the better of the two IMO.

Zenner is good but I think his stats are somewhat misleading. SDSU's offense was based around him where UNI's idiot offensive coordinator didn't make full use of DJ's potential which impacted his stats.

[clenz]

DJ is the real deal and the better of the two IMO.

Zenner is good but I think his stats are somewhat misleading. SDSU's offense was based around him where UNI's idiot offensive coordinator didn't make full use of DJ's potential which impacted his stats.

You mean you would have given DJ more than 14 touches per game through the first 7 games of the season?

Why the fuck would you do that?

[JohnStOnge]

The thing about Zenner, I think, is that a back doesn't get as many long runs as that guy got without some kind of knack for it. In watching him I think the deal is that he has really good vision while making the initial decision of where to hit the hole. Very little if any wasted motion or hesitation. He got the ball and went to the right spot immediately. Then once he broke clean he didn't get caught from behind. He may not have been the fastest guy on the field but he was fast enough to stay ahead of the tacklers in pursuit.

Like that 99 yard run against Kansas. Yes the way things worked on that play he broke clean quickly but 99 yards is a LONG way to go without someone catching you.

Here's another stat I noted when I was comparing the two: I looked at the stat line for each game over the career of each player. I looked at the longest run of each game. The average game long run for Zenner over his career is 35.7 while the average long run for Johnson is 28.6. Zenner had 13 games where his long run was over 60 yards. Johnson had 5. Go to +70 and it was Zenner 8 to 3. +80 was Zenner 6 to 1. +90 it was Zenner 2 - 0.

And it's not because Zenner feasted on the easier teams on South Dakota State's schedule. If you look at how they did against "Big 5" teams Zenner's average game long run in four games against that level of competition is 54.8 yards. Johnson's average long run in five games against that level is 16 yards. If you take away the game in which he had his shortest long run to give him benefit of the doubt (long of 8 against Wisconsin in 2012 or long of 8 against Iowa in 2014) and make if four games his average long run against "Big 5" teams would be 18 yards.

And if you think it's because Zenner got a lot more carries against those "Big 5" teams it's not. Zenner had 61 carries against "Big 5" opponents and averaged 7.6 yards per carry. Johnson had 70 carries against such teams and averaged 5.2. He had more carries but Zenner had at least three runs against that level of competition longer than the longest run Johnson had.

Like I said. It's not close when it comes to the knack for breaking off long plays running the football. That was Zenner's "thing" in college and he did it very well.

[JohnStOnge]

I looked up the NFL.com prospect profile on Zenner and it's pretty consistent with what I thought I saw:

STRENGTHS One-cut downhill runner. Workhorse. Big and fast; smart and tough. Will win most footraces once he gets to top gear. Has almost no wasted motion to and through the crease. Stays balanced through contact. Strong production against better competition.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/ ... id=2552384" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you want to read the whole thing including his weaknesses.

I underlined the part I think really stood out to me in watching him. To me that's what put him in position to make a lot of long runs.

[JohnStOnge]

DJ probably will but who knows.

I don't think there's any doubt Johnson will be drafted higher. I think he's got a broader skill set.

But I'll tell ya, when UNI spanked McNeese last year what I came away thinking wasn't what a great running back he is in terms of running the football. It was how difficult a matchup he is as a receiver coming out of the backfield.

[JohnStOnge]

Ok I looked up David Johnson's NFL.com prospect profile and that's also pretty consistent with my perception. I'm talking about how he's dangerous as a receiver out of the backfield. Here it is from http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/ ... id=2552377" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

STRENGTHS Looks good on the hoof. Possesses a big body and falls forward for additional yards. Smooth pass-catcher out of the backfield and is a mismatch for linebackers. Has been a consistent weapon out of the backfield while in college. Uses an effective jump cut on inside runs to change direction and can string a couple of them together on the same run. Has good long speed when he gets into space.

[Gil Dobie]

The big game Johnson had against Iowa, with 205 yards receiving, made a big statement. That included a 70 yard TD catch where out ran the Iowa defense. He also had catches for 53 and 60 yards.

[clenz]

The big game Johnson had against Iowa, with 205 yards receiving, made a big statement. That included a 70 yard TD catch where out ran the Iowa defense. He also had catches for 53 and 60 yards.

Shhhh...


I've avoided posting those videos just to let JSO continue his fantasy that ZZ is/was a better back

[JohnStOnge]

The big game Johnson had against Iowa, with 205 yards receiving, made a big statement. That included a 70 yard TD catch where out ran the Iowa defense. He also had catches for 53 and 60 yards.

Shhhh...


I've avoided posting those videos just to let JSO continue his fantasy that ZZ is/was a better back

I don't see how Johnson's performance against Iowa is inconsistent with what I said about him. His big game against Iowa in 2014 was mostly a receiving big game. By the stats I'm looking at he had 5 receptions for 203 yards and that long one of 70.

But RUNNING the football in that game he had 13 carries for 34 yards for a 2.6 yards per carry average and a long of 8 yards.

On the same day Zenner was playing against a better Big 5 team with a better defense in general as well as a better run defense in particular. He had 17 carries for 109 yards for a 6.1 yards per carry average, largely thanks to getting a 75 yard TD run to tie the game at 7 in the first quarter.

Zenner also had 202 yards on 21 carries for a 9.6 yards per carry average against Nebraska in 2013.

There's just no way anybody can objectively look at all the stats from the two players' careers and not come away concluding that Zenner was more effective running the football than Johnson was. And it's not a situation where it's because Zenner was going it against weaker competition. As the NFL.com prospect profile I linked indicates, he had impressive performances against top competition. That doesn't necessarily mean he'd be a more effective runner in the NFL. But he just WAS a more effective runner in college. It is what it is. And it's really not close if you actually look at the numbers in terms of who the two were playing against, yards per carry, and long runs. You can do it by looking how they did against common opponents, how they did against Big 5 competition, however you want. Zenner's stats running the football come out looking substantially better.

At the same time I don't think I even need to look things up to say that Johnson was a more effective receiver and all purpose player. I think everybody agrees on that one. And I can tell not only from looking at the NFL.com prospect profile but also from listening to a number of scouting gurus I've heard on various sports radio programs talking about him that it's his versatility in general and his receiving ability in particular that really makes him stand out to NFL people. I have no doubt he's going to go higher than Zenner as NFL draft scout has him going in the 2nd or 3rd round while it's got Zenner going in the 6th or 7th round.

[clenz]

That Iowa defense had 2 DR the will be top 3 round draft picks

Iowa had 2 defensive tackles that will be drafted in the first two rounds.

ZZs 75 yard run was a fumble recovery that had everyone on one half of the field. That wasn't him being elusive.

[AZGrizFan]

Zenner will have a longer career.

[JohnStOnge]

That Iowa defense had 2 DR the will be top 3 round draft picks

Iowa had 2 defensive tackles that will be drafted in the first two rounds.

ZZs 75 yard run was a fumble recovery that had everyone on one half of the field. That wasn't him being elusive.

Iowa finished 64th in FBS rushing defense among 125 FBS teams. That's in the lower half. The Hawkeyes gave up 4.42 yards per opponents' rush. It was NOT a good rush defense by Big 5 standards.

Missouri finished 27th in FBS rushing defense and gave up 3.53 yards per rush. Zenner was CLEARLY playing against a better big time run defense when SDSU played Missouri than Johnson was playing when UNI played Iowa. I mean come ON.

And I don't know what you're talking about with respect to a fumble recovery on Zenner's long run against Missouri. I posted a video that includes it above. There's no fumble on the play.

I didn't say he makes long runs because of elusiveness. He makes long runs because he makes a quick decision and hits the crease then once he hits the crease people can't catch him from behind. And that's what happened on his 75 yard TD run against Missouri.

If you go to the page at http://fansided.com/2014/08/30/south-da ... d-run-gif/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and watch the gif you can see a better view of it. There's no fumble on the play. They hand it to Zenner, he makes quick decisions, runs "North and South," and outruns the Missouri defender to the end zone.

He's not a "shake and bake" guy. But he made a lot of long TD runs because he quickly hit the right spot then had the "top gear" speed to finish.

[JohnStOnge]

Ok I have to admit I was wrong about something so that the idea that Zenner was, in general, more effective running the football is not a slam dunk. I'd looked at how they did against common opponents during their senior seasons. During their senior seasons Zenner averaged 5.6 yards per carry against common opponents while Johnson averaged 4.8.

However, I went ahead and looked at their entire careers and over four seasons Zenner averaged 5.1 yards per carry while Johnson averaged 5.3 against common opponents.

Nevertheless, Zenner was more likely to break off a really long run on any given carry. Here's how it went in terms of long runs against common opponents:

60 or more yards: Zenner 5, Johnson 2
70 or more yards: Zenner 3, Johnson 2
80 or more yards: Zenner 3, Johnson 1
90 or more yards: Zenner 1, Johnson 0.

If you to randomly select a run from Zenner's career against common opponents vs. randomly selecting a run from Johnson's career, it's 2.4 times as likely that a Zenner run would be for 60 or more yards, 1.4 times as likely that it would be for 70 or more yards, and 2.9 times as likely to have been for 80 or more yards. And of course Johnson never had a run of 90 or more yards in his career while Zenner had that one indicated against common opponents plus another one against a Big 5 team.

Also, again, Zenner had far better performances in terms of running the football overall against teams from the top level of college football (Big 5).

[houndawg]

Zenner will have a longer career.

This right here. ZZs durability is not in doubt.

[houndawg]

That Iowa defense had 2 DR the will be top 3 round draft picks

Iowa had 2 defensive tackles that will be drafted in the first two rounds.

ZZs 75 yard run was a fumble recovery that had everyone on one half of the field. That wasn't him being elusive.

So you're saying DJ doesn't run so well against good competition?

[clenz]

That Iowa defense had 2 DR the will be top 3 round draft picks

Iowa had 2 defensive tackles that will be drafted in the first two rounds.

ZZs 75 yard run was a fumble recovery that had everyone on one half of the field. That wasn't him being elusive.

So you're saying DJ doesn't run so well against good competition?

Did you see the OL UNI put out the last 5 years?