Happy 42nd, Roe vs Wade!!! Reproductive Freedom Forever!!!

[kalm]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

When my wife was pregnant with our second daughter, we faced the issue of a general test that showed there could be severe genetic problems with the baby early in the pregnancy. I am very glad that the follow up, more specific tests showed that not to be the case.

From that very personal experience I have come to believe that abortion is not really a matter of government business, except to make it safe and make sure that it doesn't cross the line (which will never be established) into murder. Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

Good post LB.

[Chizzang]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

When my wife was pregnant with our second daughter, we faced the issue of a general test that showed there could be severe genetic problems with the baby early in the pregnancy. I am very glad that the follow up, more specific tests showed that not to be the case.

From that very personal experience I have come to believe that abortion is not really a matter of government business, except to make it safe and make sure that it doesn't cross the line (which will never be established) into murder. Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

This ^ is precisely the issue (well said Sir)

[travelinman67]

Really?

Which laws in the a typical state's criminal code are not based on legislating morality?

That's a cop out position to take. Here's your test:

If the baby is going to kill the mother or create permanent damage to her health, then you abort.

If the mother actually has a choice as to whether or not to abort, then it is murder, period. If a woman chooses to abort a child because it was the product of a rape or incest (VERY rare in comparision to the number of yearly elective abortions, BTW) then there should be a clause permitting that.

It really IS that simple.

Murder..?
So you're the decider when life begins (interesting perspective) and meets my previous posts observation
Where I mention something about coming from a place where you think you know everything

It's called an opinion.

And, yes, life begins at conception, and abortion is murder.

I am right, and you are wrong.

Simple!

[Chizzang]

Murder..?
So you're the decider when life begins (interesting perspective) and meets my previous posts observation
Where I mention something about coming from a place where you think you know everything

It's called an opinion.

And, yes, life begins at conception, and abortion is murder.

I am right, and you are wrong.

Simple!

Ya...
and your reasonable mature opinion is fascinating (were this the year 1450)
Hey T-man, The Dark Ages called, they want their ignorance and intolerance back

[andy7171]

It's called an opinion.

And, yes, life begins at conception, and abortion is murder.

I am right, and you are wrong.

Simple!

Ya...
and your reasonable mature opinion is fascinating (were this the year 1450)
Hey T-man, The Dark Ages called, they want their ignorance and intolerance back

Were this 1450, whether or not the mother was with child wouldn't be know prior to the bump showing.

[CAA Flagship]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

Not completely where MY thoughts are governed.

Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

Now THAT is where my thoughts are governed.

[Chizzang]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

Not completely where MY thoughts are governed.

Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

Now THAT is where my thoughts are governed.

That and lap band surgery for future presidential candidates...
I think we all agree the people should be paying for that

[Pwns]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

When my wife was pregnant with our second daughter, we faced the issue of a general test that showed there could be severe genetic problems with the baby early in the pregnancy. I am very glad that the follow up, more specific tests showed that not to be the case.

From that very personal experience I have come to believe that abortion is not really a matter of government business, except to make it safe and make sure that it doesn't cross the line (which will never be established) into murder. Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

So if when life begins is subjective, can I "abort" a healthy infant so long as I humanely end it's life? When you go down the road of moral relativity with respect to where life begins then you have to accept the view of someone else's who you and the vast majority of people may find repugnant.

[dbackjon]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

When my wife was pregnant with our second daughter, we faced the issue of a general test that showed there could be severe genetic problems with the baby early in the pregnancy. I am very glad that the follow up, more specific tests showed that not to be the case.

From that very personal experience I have come to believe that abortion is not really a matter of government business, except to make it safe and make sure that it doesn't cross the line (which will never be established) into murder. Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

So if when life begins is subjective, can I "abort" a healthy infant so long as I humanely end it's life? When you go down the road of moral relativity with respect to where life begins then you have to accept the view of someone else's who you and the vast majority of people may find repugnant.

Sure, as long as they are darkies. Can sell them too, just like the good ol' days in Georgia

[Chizzang]

The issue of whether abortion = murder depends upon the point at which life begins. That is the basis for the debate.

Some hold life begins at conception, when the egg from the female and the sperm from the male unite to form a new person. Others argue that life begins when the baby exits the mother's womb. Many people believe life begins some where in between.

Where your personal beliefs lie on the issue of where life begins governs your thoughts about abortion.

When my wife was pregnant with our second daughter, we faced the issue of a general test that showed there could be severe genetic problems with the baby early in the pregnancy. I am very glad that the follow up, more specific tests showed that not to be the case.

From that very personal experience I have come to believe that abortion is not really a matter of government business, except to make it safe and make sure that it doesn't cross the line (which will never be established) into murder. Therefore it is my belief that government should not really be involved including paying for abortion or legislating that insurance companies pay for abortion.

So if when life begins is subjective, can I "abort" a healthy infant so long as I humanely end it's life? When you go down the road of moral relativity with respect to where life begins then you have to accept the view of someone else's who you and the vast majority of people may find repugnant.

This is the exact same point you made previously... just rephrased
And yes, we still get your point

And I can come up with about 10,000 examples as to why all kinds of things should be illegal
and are repugnant etc. etc. etc. but that still continues to NOT be the point

The exact moment of life is an opinion and matter of interpretation
and it can be argued forever and from a myriad of perspectives

It does not change the point that the carrier has to be able to gather data and make choices
regardless of somebody's opinion who is irrelevant to the situation

Sometimes when something is inside somebody else's body - your opinion (regardless of how important you think it is) must be clearly observed as irrelevant to their situation...

its not about "liking it" or the repulsiveness of its proposed ethics



We're still right here:
I don't like it when toddlers get shot - therefore - All guns should be illegal (problem solved)

Not....

I don't like it when women have abortions - therefore - all abortions should be illegal
Not relevant and also not any more complicated than that...

[Cap'n Cat]

Message for Conks and other dumbasses like andy, it ain't NEVER going' back to the way it used to be.


Again, if men could become pregnant, abortion would be safe and affordable, covered by insurance and, indeed, a sacrament in the Church....any you KNOW it.





Next topic: Aborted fetuses - are they in heaven? Not baptized, so WTF?

[89Hen]

Because somebody shoots a toddler doesn't mean guns should be illegal
but that creates a provocative example to make an extreme point

Are you teaching graduate studies at the Z School of Analogies? Holy shit, that is the worst one I've seen in a year.

Nobody is saying surgical tools used for abortions should be illegal.

[Cap'n Cat]

Because somebody shoots a toddler doesn't mean guns should be illegal
but that creates a provocative example to make an extreme point

Are you teaching graduate studies at the Z School of Analogies? Holy shit, that is the worst one I've seen in a year.

Nobody is saying surgical tools used for abortions should be illegal.

Hen, does Monsignor Nelson over there at St. Bodacious dictate to the Hen family that aborted fetuses go to heaven?

[Chizzang]

Because somebody shoots a toddler doesn't mean guns should be illegal
but that creates a provocative example to make an extreme point

Are you teaching graduate studies at the Z School of Analogies? Holy shit, that is the worst one I've seen in a year.

Nobody is saying surgical tools used for abortions should be illegal.

Cute.... dumb but cute

[Grizalltheway]

Because somebody shoots a toddler doesn't mean guns should be illegal
but that creates a provocative example to make an extreme point

Are you teaching graduate studies at the Z School of Analogies? Holy shit, that is the worst one I've seen in a year.

Nobody is saying surgical tools used for abortions should be illegal.

The point, which obviously sailed right over your head, is that outlawing abortion will no more stop abortions than outlawing guns will stop toddlers or others from getting shot.

[Chizzang]

Are you teaching graduate studies at the Z School of Analogies? Holy shit, that is the worst one I've seen in a year.

Nobody is saying surgical tools used for abortions should be illegal.

The point, which obviously sailed right over your head, is that outlawing abortion will no more stop abortions than outlawing guns will stop toddlers or others from getting shot.

Indeed...

[89Hen]

Murder..?
So you're the decider when life begins

The pro-choice side is far more guilty of that Cleets. I will be the first to tell you that I have no idea when that exact moment is. But if you agree that we can't decide when that moment is, don't you have to err on the side of life? I find it kind of ironic that you seem to point a finger at people being in the dark ages, but it wasn't that long ago where viability was a LOT further into a term than it is today. Imagine where that line moves in the future. BTW,my stance on abortion is based 100% on logic and has zero to do wtih religion.

[89Hen]

Are you teaching graduate studies at the Z School of Analogies? Holy shit, that is the worst one I've seen in a year.

Nobody is saying surgical tools used for abortions should be illegal.

The point, which obviously sailed right over your head, is that outlawing abortion will no more stop abortions than outlawing guns will stop toddlers or others from getting shot.

I do see what Cleets was getting at about removing the "tool" for abortion, but it's still a weak analogy.

Everything that is illegal was made illegal because people were doing it and society deemed they shouldn't be doing it. Once it was made illegal, it didn't mean 100% of people stopped doing it. Otherwise we wouldn't need jails. Making abortion illegal won't stop abortions, but to say it wouldn't have an impact is silly.

[CAA Flagship]

Serious question here:
Is making something legal the same as saying that it is not illegal?

[Chizzang]

Murder..?
So you're the decider when life begins

The pro-choice side is far more guilty of that Cleets. I will be the first to tell you that I have no idea when that exact moment is. But if you agree that we can't decide when that moment is, don't you have to err on the side of life? I find it kind of ironic that you seem to point a finger at people being in the dark ages, but it wasn't that long ago where viability was a LOT further into a term than it is today. Imagine where that line moves in the future. BTW,my stance on abortion is based 100% on logic and has zero to do wtih religion.

Good for you...
I just happen to believe that it is reasonable to give women the ability to make choices
even if some people hate the outcome

Some on here assume I love the idea of abortion - which is ridiculous
What I can't imagine is a country where irrelevant people decide on matters that don't involve them

We cannot go there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[89Hen]

I just happen to believe that it is reasonable to give women the ability to make choices
even if some people hate the outcome

Some on here assume I love the idea of abortion - which is ridiculous
What I can't imagine is a country where irrelevant people decide on matters that don't involve them

We cannot go there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lawmakers have to make laws that don't directly involve themselves every day of the week. That's how society works.

BTW, I don't assume you love the idea of abortion. I get how you can be against it personally, but OK with it for somebody else. Same way you can be for the legalization of pot, but not partake of it. However, in the case of abortion, the woman is not the subject/user/victim.

[Cap'n Cat]

[Cap'n Cat]

I just happen to believe that it is reasonable to give women the ability to make choices
even if some people hate the outcome

Some on here assume I love the idea of abortion - which is ridiculous
What I can't imagine is a country where irrelevant people decide on matters that don't involve them

We cannot go there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lawmakers have to make laws that don't directly involve themselves every day of the week. That's how society works.

BTW, I don't assume you love the idea of abortion. I get how you can be against it personally, but OK with it for somebody else. Same way you can be for the legalization of pot, but not partake of it. However, in the case of abortion, the woman is not the subject/user/victim.

There is no victim. It's removal of an unwanted blob of tissue. Like removing a mole or liposuction. Divorce the emotion.

[travelinman67]

Abortion KILLS 19 Times More Blacks Than Murder!




THANK YOU, CAPPY!!

[Pwns]

You didn't answer my question, Chizzy. Would you or would you not be okay with someone killing a healthy infant?

There's a reason people like Peter Singer advocate for legal infantcide - to get away from lazy moral reletavist justification for abortion and arbitrary definitions of when a right to life begins.

And no, that's not the same point I made upthread.