Real Life Heroine

[Pwns]

I think abortion should be legal until childhood. Don't like putting healthy infants to sleep? Then don't put your infant to sleep but stop imposing your silly religious beliefs on people. When life begins is totally subjective, amiright?

Adopt all the unwanted infants in the world if you don't like infanticide.

[JohnStOnge]

When life begins is totally subjective, amiright?

I interpret your post as sarcasm and see you as on my "side." So the comments below are for others.

Actually, it's not subjective at all. Biologically, for our species, the life of a new individual animal is established when genetic recombination is complete. There is absolutely no doubt about it. No subjectivity either. A very "objective" event. As objective a determination as there is in biology. There is a little bit of a complication in cases involving monozygotic multiple births (such as identical twins). Then you have kind of a strange situation in which you start off with one individual life being established then it divides into two or more so that more than one individual started life at the same time. But we still know when life began.

The problem is that recognizing that complicates our lives. So we don't like recognizing it. The subjectivity comes in when we start imposing subjective philosophical beliefs on when the life becomes "human." Then we impose our beliefs about what "human" is upon unborn individuals in order to say they're not "human beings" and thereby justify killing them because killing them makes our own lives more convenient.

When a woman has an abortion, she is having a living member of our species killed. And the individual she's having killed is her own progeny. That's the objective truth.

[Skjellyfetti]

When a woman has an abortion, she is having a living member of our species killed. And the individual she's having killed is her own progeny.

Should abortion be a crime and should the mother and doctor/facilitator be charged with murder?

[SeattleGriz]

The best thing the pro choice community has going for it is the religious right. It is much easier to dismiss someone who uses the Bible as the backdrop for their argument against abortion, than it is to dismiss a non-religious person who opposes abortion purely on humanist or moral grounds.

I completely agree...
God takes lives all the time and abortion is just another one of "Gods Will" playing itself out
God is mysterious like that - you cannot argue the Will of God



But on humanist grounds its like having a legitimate debate with an adult who is using reason
So the argument gets a lot more difficult

Classic Cleets troll attempt.

[89Hen]

When a woman has an abortion, she is having a living member of our species killed. And the individual she's having killed is her own progeny.

Should abortion be a crime and should the mother and doctor/facilitator be charged with murder?

OAKLAND — A Richmond man who admitted stabbing his pregnant girlfriend and leaving her to bleed to death on her couch was found guilty Thursday of two counts of second-degree murder.

Six men and six women convicted Peterson Friday of the first-degree murder of his wife, Laci, and the second-degree murder of the fetus she was carrying.

[89Hen]

And for 89Hen:

If you want abortion to be no longer legal:
(a) what should the punishment be for illegal abortions?
(b) should all miscarriages be investigated as potential abortions?

Cart before the horse there Jelly.

[89Hen]

I think the problem is some people equate clumps of cells with baby humans. Those are not equal. Even if the clump of cells could one day become a human.

OK Vidav, then answer the question that Cleets won't.... what exact moment does every single "clump of cells" become a human baby? If the answer is "I'm not sure" then HOW can you say it's OK to terminate?

So no answer from Vidav either. These tough questions are a bitch for the pro-choice side.

[Skjellyfetti]

And for 89Hen:

If you want abortion to be no longer legal:
(a) what should the punishment be for illegal abortions?
(b) should all miscarriages be investigated as potential abortions?

Cart before the horse there Jelly.

So, just make it illegal and then figure out punishments, etc. later?


You have said it is murder in this thread (and, I'm sure in previous threads):

Yeah, but we're talking about the right to life vs the right to vote. Murder vs an inconvenience. GIGANTIC difference IMO Vidav.

So, why are you dancing around the repercussions of it being legally considered murder?


Why the cart before the horse? Why must the debate just be about whether or not abortion should be legal - and also not the consequences of doing so?

[Chizzang]

Cart before the horse there Jelly.

So, just make it illegal and then figure out punishments, etc. later?


You have said it is murder in this thread (and, I'm sure in previous threads):

Yeah, but we're talking about the right to life vs the right to vote. Murder vs an inconvenience. GIGANTIC difference IMO Vidav.

So, why are you dancing around the repercussions of it being legally considered murder?


Why the cart before the horse? Why must the debate just be about whether or not abortion should be legal - and also not the consequences of doing so?

Because that's where their Medieval Dark Age Philosophy gets exposed
To the nuts and bolts of the modern world

[SeattleGriz]

So, just make it illegal and then figure out punishments, etc. later?


You have said it is murder in this thread (and, I'm sure in previous threads):



So, why are you dancing around the repercussions of it being legally considered murder?


Why the cart before the horse? Why must the debate just be about whether or not abortion should be legal - and also not the consequences of doing so?

Because that's where their Medieval Dark Age Philosophy gets exposed
To the nuts and bolts of the modern world

Yeah, that whole made up cancer/abortion link, because, well Medieval guys just couldn't come up with that on their own.

We won't talk about the mental issues an abortion causes on some women.

[89Hen]

Why the cart before the horse? Why must the debate just be about whether or not abortion should be legal - and also not the consequences of doing so?

Because the debate IS about whether or not it should be legal. If you think it should be legal, why would any penalty for it being illegal even enter the discussion? Or are you telling me that if somebody comes up with an acceptable penalty, you'd change your position on the legality of it?

[Skjellyfetti]

Why the cart before the horse? Why must the debate just be about whether or not abortion should be legal - and also not the consequences of doing so?

Because the debate IS about whether or not it should be legal. If you think it should be legal, why would any penalty for it being illegal even enter the discussion? Or are you telling me that if somebody comes up with an acceptable penalty, you'd change your position on the legality of it?

So, you just think it should be illegal - but, don't really care about what the punishment is? Your main gripe is with the fact that it is legal and therefor condoned by the government?

If so... then, yes... I'd be ok with a slap-on-the-wrist penalty for it. Make it an ordinance violation give them a citation that increases each time and be done with it.

Do you want something more harsh? Execution?

Or excuse me if you do not wish to discuss this. My bad!

[89Hen]

Because the debate IS about whether or not it should be legal. If you think it should be legal, why would any penalty for it being illegal even enter the discussion? Or are you telling me that if somebody comes up with an acceptable penalty, you'd change your position on the legality of it?

So, you just think it should be illegal - but, don't really care about what the punishment is? Your main gripe is with the fact that it is legal and therefor condoned by the government?

If so... then, yes... I'd be ok with a slap-on-the-wrist penalty for it. Make it an ordinance violation give them a citation that increases each time and be done with it.

Do you want something more harsh? Execution?

Or excuse me if you do not wish to discuss this. My bad!

I'm fine discussing it, but it seems like a deflection of the actual debate. Unless you're telling me that you are now pro-life as long as the penalty isn't too strong?

[Skjellyfetti]

Define pro-life first. I am "pro life" in the sense that I think abortion is a terrible thing and I wouldn't support having a fetus with my DNA aborted.

What makes me support the legalization of abortion is the repercussions that I see from criminalized (especially if you consider it murder) abortions.

To me... it's impossible to have a debate about the legal status of abortion without discussing the legal ramifications of doing so.

[Grizalltheway]

Define pro-life first. I am "pro life" in the sense that I think abortion is a terrible thing and I wouldn't support having a fetus with my DNA aborted.

What makes me support the legalization of abortion is the repercussions that I see from criminalized (especially if you consider it murder) abortions.

To me... it's impossible to have a debate about the legal status of abortion without discussing the legal ramifications of doing so.

This. If you're going to consider abortion equal to murder (pre-meditated murder, even), why would you not support the meting out the same penalties, i.e. life in prison or even death?

[89Hen]

Define pro-life first. I am "pro life" in the sense that I think abortion is a terrible thing and I wouldn't support having a fetus with my DNA aborted.

Pro-life to me means you believe abortion is terminating a life, not a clump of cells. In our country, terminating another's life is a crime if it is done purposefully or negligently. There are a number of ways we define the crime, from different degrees of murder to manslaughter.

I don't have the answer as to what the penalty should be. Loss of medical license for the doctor should be part of it IMO. That would put a pretty quick end to many abortions. What I find kind of strange about the next thing out of the mouth of many pro-choicers, ie. that would lead to back alley abortions... so? What's strange is they seem to be more concerned with the health of the woman making the choice and having no regard for the life of the one being terminated. Compassion for the one that put herself in that predicament, but no compassion for the one who is really paying the price.

[89Hen]

Define pro-life first. I am "pro life" in the sense that I think abortion is a terrible thing and I wouldn't support having a fetus with my DNA aborted.

What makes me support the legalization of abortion is the repercussions that I see from criminalized (especially if you consider it murder) abortions.

To me... it's impossible to have a debate about the legal status of abortion without discussing the legal ramifications of doing so.

This. If you're going to consider abortion equal to murder (pre-meditated murder, even), why would you not support the meting out the same penalties, i.e. life in prison or even death?

I'm against capital punishment and I'm not out to get the women, I'm out to save the babies.

[89Hen]

BTW jelly, thank you for the first reasoned discussion I've had on this.