Americans Held Captive: Expectations

[AZGrizFan]

Should anyone, as an American, expect our government to intervene when they make a conscious decision to enter a foreign country and cross the local government/police/terrorist establishment?

Specifically, we've had two reporters who have been beheaded, there's a guy going "on trial" in North Korea as we speak, and there's of course the marine held in a Mexican prison.

Should we expect our government to bail us out when we make poor decisions and enter into unfriendly countries of our own volition?

[travelinman67]

No.

No.

Social Darwinism.

[GannonFan]

How attractive is she?

[Chizzang]

Should anyone, as an American, expect our government to intervene when they make a conscious decision to enter a foreign country and cross the local government/police/terrorist establishment?

Specifically, we've had two reporters who have been beheaded, there's a guy going "on trial" in North Korea as we speak, and there's of course the marine held in a Mexican prison.

Should we expect our government to bail us out when we make poor decisions and enter into unfriendly countries of our own volition?

So you're asking the worlds largest Military Industrial Complex - if it thinks it should expend military force in a situation that allows it to drum up patriotism and Nationalism

Gee... I wonder

Patriot Missiles cost $58,000 each - and every time we fire one we have to borrow $10,000 from China - so yeah I think its a brilliant idea.. its worked great so far

[OL FU]

Should anyone, as an American, expect our government to intervene when they make a conscious decision to enter a foreign country and cross the local government/police/terrorist establishment?

Specifically, we've had two reporters who have been beheaded, there's a guy going "on trial" in North Korea as we speak, and there's of course the marine held in a Mexican prison.

Should we expect our government to bail us out when we make poor decisions and enter into unfriendly countries of our own volition?

So you're asking the worlds largest Military Industrial Complex - if it thinks it should expend military force in a situation that allows it to drum up patriotism and Nationalism

Gee... I wonder

Patriot Missiles cost $58,000 each - and every time we fire one we have to borrow $10,000 from China - so yeah I think its a brilliant idea.. its worked great so far

Hey a stimulus program with at least some impact on something:?

[dbackjon]

Generally not.

We should, as a country, defend our citizens using our available resources (ie embassies, etc)
We should not pay ransom etc for civilians that have put themselves voluntarily in harms way.

We don't want to simply abandon them, but should not bend over backwards either.

[89Hen]

We should, as a country, defend our citizens using our available resources (ie embassies, etc)
We should not pay ransom etc for civilians that have put themselves voluntarily in harms way.

We don't want to simply abandon them

[dbackjon]

We should, as a country, defend our citizens using our available resources (ie embassies, etc)
We should not pay ransom etc for civilians that have put themselves voluntarily in harms way.

We don't want to simply abandon them

If you are trying to make a BENGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZIIIIIIIIIIIII Point, you failed. Even the House GOP admits this is a faux scandal, and that no one was abandoned.

YOU FAIL!

[CID1990]

If you knuckleheads have questions about the federal government's responsibilities to us citizens overseas maybe you should try asking a consular officer. An American Citizens Services Chief is usually pretty well versed on these things

[Chizzang]

If you knuckleheads have questions about the federal government's responsibilities to us citizens overseas maybe you should try asking a consular officer. An American Citizens Services Chief is usually pretty well versed on these things

F*ck that...
Lets just fly off the handle and throw as mush sh!t at the wall as we can




We can have a reasonable debate later (much much later)

[dbackjon]

If you knuckleheads have questions about the federal government's responsibilities to us citizens overseas maybe you should try asking a consular officer. An American Citizens Services Chief is usually pretty well versed on these things

Was waiting on you to chime in...


So?

[93henfan]

Gotta take it on a case by case basis.

People who voluntarily enter areas that the State Department has said are not where they should be are low on my list.

It's all a matter of opportunity. If intel presents an opportunity to pluck an American with little chance of death or injury to other Americans (read: rescuers), then sure, take the shot.

[travelinman67]

A person entering these regions should reasonably know the risks. If harm comes their way, they either:

1. Are foolish or an idiot.
2. Took a gamble and lost.
3. Are attempting to aid the enemy.

Tough. Buh bye!

[dbackjon]

A person entering these regions should reasonably know the risks. If harm comes their way, they either:

1. Are foolish or an idiot.
2. Took a gamble and lost.
3. Are attempting to aid the enemy.

Tough. Buh bye!

So we shouldn't go to war with NK over this guy?

After entering North Korea on April 10, Miller, who is from Bakersfield, opted to not travel with staff from the American company that organized his trip or with other Western tourists but only with North Korean guides. It is less common and more expensive for Western tourists to travel only with guides from the North.

While traveling, Miller reportedly tore up his visa and declared himself “not a tourist.” The court said he intended to “experience prison life so that he could investigate the human rights situation."

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[travelinman67]

A person entering these regions should reasonably know the risks. If harm comes their way, they either:

1. Are foolish or an idiot.
2. Took a gamble and lost.
3. Are attempting to aid the enemy.

Tough. Buh bye!

So we shouldn't go to war with NK over this guy?

After entering North Korea on April 10, Miller, who is from Bakersfield, opted to not travel with staff from the American company that organized his trip or with other Western tourists but only with North Korean guides. It is less common and more expensive for Western tourists to travel only with guides from the North.

While traveling, Miller reportedly tore up his visa and declared himself “not a tourist.” The court said he intended to “experience prison life so that he could investigate the human rights situation."

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dback, you're wasting time. Miller was a stooge. NK will eventually collapse and are not a threat.

We are going to war with ISIS because they are a threat, NOT because some coward loser Godless brit is drugging and butchering anti-war news correspondents.

[YoUDeeMan]

Dback, you're wasting time. Miller was a stooge. NK will eventually collapse and are not a threat.

We are going to war with ISIS because they are a threat, NOT because some coward loser Godless brit is drugging and butchering anti-war news correspondents.

Hold on there...ISIS is a threat? To whom?

You know what is funny? How did ISIS suddenly grow to 21,000 - 31,500 troops? Did some Middle Eastern genie conjure up a couple new divisions of big, bad, enemy troops?

This is comical...seriously.

I'll go back to gObomba's statement that we will degrade and destroy ISIS. Exactly what are we going to do this time to ISIS that we didn't do to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or the bad guys in Libya? Do we have some new super secret weapon that will identify the bad guys and eliminate them? Perhaps an ISIS Roach Motel?

This is simply an exercise in fear...and we will not miss an opportunity to purchase and use gobs of new missiles...courtesy of our Congressmen's military industrial complex needs.

[AZGrizFan]

A person entering these regions should reasonably know the risks. If harm comes their way, they either:

1. Are foolish or an idiot.
2. Took a gamble and lost.
3. Are attempting to aid the enemy.

Tough. Buh bye!

So we shouldn't go to war with NK over this guy?

After entering North Korea on April 10, Miller, who is from Bakersfield, opted to not travel with staff from the American company that organized his trip or with other Western tourists but only with North Korean guides. It is less common and more expensive for Western tourists to travel only with guides from the North.

While traveling, Miller reportedly tore up his visa and declared himself “not a tourist.” The court said he intended to “experience prison life so that he could investigate the human rights situation."

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So basically he's hoping for a book deal out of this.

[Cap'n Cat]

No.

No.

Social Darwinism.

Agree with my rightie brother on the West Coast. Personal responsibility.

[CAA Flagship]

Dback, you're wasting time. Miller was a stooge. NK will eventually collapse and are not a threat.

We are going to war with ISIS because they are a threat, NOT because some coward loser Godless brit is drugging and butchering anti-war news correspondents.

Hold on there...ISIS is a threat? To whom?

You know what is funny? How did ISIS suddenly grow to 21,000 - 31,500 troops? Did some Middle Eastern genie conjure up a couple new divisions of big, bad, enemy troops?

This is comical...seriously.

I'll go back to gObomba's statement that we will degrade and destroy ISIS. Exactly what are we going to do this time to ISIS that we didn't do to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or the bad guys in Libya? Do we have some new super secret weapon that will identify the bad guys and eliminate them? Perhaps an ISIS Roach Motel?

This is simply an exercise in fear...and we will not miss an opportunity to purchase and use gobs of new missiles...courtesy of our Congressmen's military industrial complex needs.

You sort of answered your own question here.
Why does ISIS seem to be growing more than the Taliban? Maybe because the Taliban has been forced into miserable living conditions while ISIS controls cities with modern conveniences. And ISIS has a better ability to generate revenue and seize assets because they control land and resources. The Taliban has been reduced to a mere pain in the ass. The Taliban will never be more than that unless they control quality land and resources (maybe once we leave the region).
Land and resources. If you let these bastards control them, they will become a threat.

[YoUDeeMan]

You sort of answered your own question here.
Why does ISIS seem to be growing more than the Taliban? Maybe because the Taliban has been forced into miserable living conditions while ISIS controls cities with modern conveniences. And ISIS has a better ability to generate revenue and seize assets because they control land and resources. The Taliban has been reduced to a mere pain in the ass. The Taliban will never be more than that unless they control quality land and resources (maybe once we leave the region).
Land and resources. If you let these bastards control them, they will become a threat.

Iran controls land and resources. Lebanon controls land and resources. Saudi Arabia controls land and resources. Bahrain controls land and resources. Sadaam controlled land and resources. Qwaduffy controlled land and resources. Assad controlled land and resources.

And they are/were a direct threat to whom?

ISIS didn't just suddenly pop up with 30,000 soldiers, as the CIA now says they have.

Where did they get their weapons? Where did they get their initial funding? Are they planning on driving a Humvee across the Atlantic?

How do they have such huge...tracts of land?

Are you telling me that with all of our intelligence capabilities in that region, that suddenly a 30,000 man army popped up and took control of a chunk of territory about the size of Nebraska?

We had a #1 enemy...Assad...that was our primary focus. It was our intent to remove this threat from office. But wait...there is suddenly another enemy even more powerful (with a whole 30,000 strong army - that is comical on so many levels), that needs to be dealt with ASAP.

Of course, the Iraqi army, which we funded and trained for how many years, can't handle these ISIS super soldiers. And Assad, who we degraded, but then he regraded, can't handle these ISIS super soldiers. And the Kurds, who we armed and support, can't handle these ISIS super soldiers. And the Syrian rebels, who we armed (yes we did, though our good friend Saudi Arabia, among others), can't handle these ISIS super soldiers.

In other words, we have ISIS surrounded by people we've armed and trained, and also by Assad's forces, who the Russians armed and trained, and yet ISIS, all 21,000 to 30,000 of them, are the biggest threat the free world's seen in...well, at least a few months.

ISIS must be THE focus, and we must spend hundreds of millions of dollars of our military industrial complex's best weapons, to quell ISIS...or else they'll be on our shores and raising their flag over 'Merica, specifically Washington, D.C. (as one of our esteemed Congressmen said).

In the meantime, our oil bloated Muslin allies, with all of their shiny new oil revenue purchesd F-15s (some of which were just used to bomb some bad guys in Libya....oops!) and Abrams tanks, and our Muslin brothers in Turkey, and our Israeli allies, and the rest of the free world, and the dictator in Russia (who, closer to the action, must surely be concerned about ISIS), are doing exactly what, to defeat these 20,000 - 30,000 pop-up super soldiers?


C'mon, man...my sides are splitting!

[CAA Flagship]

You sort of answered your own question here.
Why does ISIS seem to be growing more than the Taliban? Maybe because the Taliban has been forced into miserable living conditions while ISIS controls cities with modern conveniences. And ISIS has a better ability to generate revenue and seize assets because they control land and resources. The Taliban has been reduced to a mere pain in the ass. The Taliban will never be more than that unless they control quality land and resources (maybe once we leave the region).
Land and resources. If you let these bastards control them, they will become a threat.

Iran controls land and resources. Lebanon controls land and resources. Saudi Arabia controls land and resources. Bahrain controls land and resources. Sadaam controlled land and resources. Qwaduffy controlled land and resources. Assad controlled land and resources.

And they are/were a direct threat to whom?

ISIS didn't just suddenly pop up with 30,000 soldiers, as the CIA now says they have.

Where did they get their weapons? Where did they get their initial funding? Are they planning on driving a Humvee across the Atlantic?

How do they have such huge...tracts of land?

Are you telling me that with all of our intelligence capabilities in that region, that suddenly a 30,000 man army popped up and took control of a chunk of territory about the size of Nebraska?

We had a #1 enemy...Assad...that was our primary focus. It was our intent to remove this threat from office. But wait...there is suddenly another enemy even more powerful (with a whole 30,000 strong army - that is comical on so many levels), that needs to be dealt with ASAP.

Of course, the Iraqi army, which we funded and trained for how many years, can't handle these ISIS super soldiers. And Assad, who we degraded, but then he regraded, can't handle these ISIS super soldiers. And the Kurds, who we armed and support, can't handle these ISIS super soldiers. And the Syrian rebels, who we armed (yes we did, though our good friend Saudi Arabia, among others), can't handle these ISIS super soldiers.

In other words, we have ISIS surrounded by people we've armed and trained, and also by Assad's forces, who the Russians armed and trained, and yet ISIS, all 21,000 to 30,000 of them, are the biggest threat the free world's seen in...well, at least a few months.

ISIS must be THE focus, and we must spend hundreds of millions of dollars of our military industrial complex's best weapons, to quell ISIS...or else they'll be on our shores and raising their flag over 'Merica, specifically Washington, D.C. (as one of our esteemed Congressmen said).

In the meantime, our oil bloated Muslin allies, with all of their shiny new oil revenue purchesd F-15s (some of which were just used to bomb some bad guys in Libya....oops!) and Abrams tanks, and our Muslin brothers in Turkey, and our Israeli allies, and the rest of the free world, and the dictator in Russia (who, closer to the action, must surely be concerned about ISIS), are doing exactly what, to defeat these 20,000 - 30,000 pop-up super soldiers?


C'mon, man...my sides are splitting!

JFC Cluck. Will you stop talking in questions? I don't know what the fuck you are trying to say.

[YoUDeeMan]

JFC Cluck. Will you stop talking in questions? I don't know what the fuck you are trying to say.

If you answer the questions, then you'll have figured it out.

But, here's some additional information, from mid-June, to help.

http://www.armytimes.com/article/201406 ... divisions-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The extremist group [ISIS] seizing vast swaths of Iraq this week is most likely fielding a small force of less than 1,000 fighters equipped with little more than small-arms weaponry and soft-shelled pickup trucks.

But the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, apparently has routed an estimated 30,000 Iraqi Army soldiers who were trained by the U.S. military and given billions in sophisticated American military equipment.

The stunning outcome reflects widespread desertions among the Iraqi units in the north as well as the Sunni-Shiite sectarian tensions that underlie the military battles, experts say.

“It’s a relativity small force that managed to take the city [of Mosul], and it’s shocking that they were able to do that,” said Charlie Cooper, who studies Islamic extremism for the Quilliam Foundation in London.

“To me, that suggests there is collusion or at least deliberate capitulation on the part of Sunni tribes in western and northern Iraq,” Cooper said. “It’s likely that this happened because Sunni tribes in the area let it happen.”

Experts say ISIS totals no more than 10,000 fighters throughout Iraq and Syria, while the force that specifically seized the city of Mosul this week probably totaled about 800 fighters. That force overpowered two Iraqi Army divisions totaling about 30,000 troops.

“Clearly, the Iraqi forces in the north lack cohesion and a will to fight,” said Jeff White, a former intelligence analyst with the Defense Intelligence Agency who is now a defense expert with the Washington Institute think tank.

In terms of weaponry, ISIS has small arms and civilian-style pickup trucks with mounted crew-served weapons, mainly heavy machine guns such as Russian-made Dushkas, and also a limited supply of 23mm anti-aircraft weapons that they are using for direct fire, White said.

On the other side, the Iraqi army is awash in about $15 billion in U.S. gear transferred since 2005, including IA-407 helicopters, M-1 Abrams tanks, C-130 fixed-wing aircraft and 300 hellfire missiles, Pentagon officials say."

That was June. Now, three months later, the CIA has updated the threat to say that ISIS has 21,000 - 30,000 troops.

ISIS is the biggest, most gigantistist threat out there, according to the latest...intelligence. We must degrade, then destroy them.

You even said they are a threat.

My questions to you are...why are they a threat...and if they are a threat, how do you propose to destroy them?

[kalm]

Lindsey Graham thinks ISIS is a threat.

Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) has been warning for months of an ISIS attack on the homeland that would make 9/11 pale, but he appeared to ratchet up the rhetoric Sunday morning when he told Fox News Sunday guest host John Roberts that President Barack Obama needed to stop ISIS/L “before we all get killed here at home.”

“The first thing I want to tell American people, from my point of view, it is our fight, it is not just their fight,” Graham said. “I will not let this president suggest to the American people we can outsource or security and this is not about our safety. There is no way in hell you can form an army on the ground to go into Syria, to destroy ISIL, without a substantial American component. To destroy ISIL, you have to kill or capture their leaders, take the territory they hold back, cut off the financing, and destroy the capability to regenerate.”

RELATED: Sen. Graham: ‘Apparently Nobody’s Been Listening to What McCain and I Have Been Saying’

“This is a war we’re fighting, not a counterterrorism operation,” graham continued. “This is not Somalia, this is not Yemen. This is a turning point i nthe war on terror. Our strategy will fail yet again. This president needs to rise to the occasion before we all get killed back here at home.”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/sen-graham-o ... e-at-home/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[YoUDeeMan]

If you knuckleheads have questions about the federal government's responsibilities to us citizens overseas maybe you should try asking a consular officer. An American Citizens Services Chief is usually pretty well versed on these things

Hey, as a person who travels overseas, I would hope that the U.S. would do everything possible to protect me when I am out and about...with a caveat.

If I go into places where it has been deemed it isn't safe, as in, oh...say, a war zone, then I would not expect someone else to risk their life for my selfish stupidity.

In that case I am the clown who is needlessly endangering anyone that might need to bail me out.

F that.

Protect our citizens in civilized places...but let's not go overboard to protect the really stupid and/or selfish ones.

[AZGrizFan]

JFC Cluck. Will you stop talking in questions? I don't know what the fuck you are trying to say.

If you answer the questions, then you'll have figured it out.

But, here's some additional information, from mid-June, to help.

http://www.armytimes.com/article/201406 ... divisions-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The extremist group [ISIS] seizing vast swaths of Iraq this week is most likely fielding a small force of less than 1,000 fighters equipped with little more than small-arms weaponry and soft-shelled pickup trucks.

But the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, apparently has routed an estimated 30,000 Iraqi Army soldiers who were trained by the U.S. military and given billions in sophisticated American military equipment.

The stunning outcome reflects widespread desertions among the Iraqi units in the north as well as the Sunni-Shiite sectarian tensions that underlie the military battles, experts say.

“It’s a relativity small force that managed to take the city [of Mosul], and it’s shocking that they were able to do that,” said Charlie Cooper, who studies Islamic extremism for the Quilliam Foundation in London.

No matter how many guns and tanks and training nor how much ammo you give someone, if they're a coward they're not going to use it properly.

The French have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.