Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Chizzang »

Pwns wrote:If there were any miracles, wouldn't people just sarcastically say "so anything we don't understand = God did it, right? Tell Zeus we need some rain."?

I'm not saying this applies to anyone in particular here, but there's people that think divine action should be mountains moving or oceans parting. They completely miss life's very subtle blessings and messages. But I'm not here to try and influence anyone's religious beliefs, so I won't go too deep with that stuff.
What's even more hysterical is that Christians think they're the only people who feel life's subtle daily blessings and who see the world with a sense of wonder....

Well I've got a little secret for you Pwns
Everybody pretty much does - It's part of the human condition

Life's subtleties and discrete beauties are observed every day by billions of humans simultaneously
(even Atheists!!!)

:nod:

I talk with my Atheist friends about "The blessings and the Beauty"
And they indeed feel it and are amazed by it as well
I call it the God Feelings - which annoys them to no end

:mrgreen:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Gil Dobie »

Chizzang wrote: What's even more hysterical is that Christians think they're the only people who feel life's subtle daily blessings and who see the world with a sense of wonder....

Well I've got a little secret for you Pwns
Everybody pretty much does - It's part of the human condition

Life's subtleties and discrete beauties are observed every day by billions of humans simultaneously
(even Atheists!!!)

:nod:

I talk with my Atheist friends about "The blessings and the Beauty"
And they indeed feel it and are amazed by it as well
I call it the God Feelings - which annoys them to no end

:mrgreen:
It's called spirituality, which is not to be confused with religion. Many Christians, Atheist, and thousands of other people with other beliefs have it.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by kalm »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Chizzang wrote: What's even more hysterical is that Christians think they're the only people who feel life's subtle daily blessings and who see the world with a sense of wonder....

Well I've got a little secret for you Pwns
Everybody pretty much does - It's part of the human condition

Life's subtleties and discrete beauties are observed every day by billions of humans simultaneously
(even Atheists!!!)

:nod:

I talk with my Atheist friends about "The blessings and the Beauty"
And they indeed feel it and are amazed by it as well
I call it the God Feelings - which annoys them to no end

:mrgreen:
It's called spirituality, which is not to be confused with religion. Many Christians, Atheist, and thousands of other people with other beliefs have it.
Shouldn't spirituality include religion? :?
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Gil Dobie »

kalm wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
It's called spirituality, which is not to be confused with religion. Many Christians, Atheist, and thousands of other people with other beliefs have it.
Shouldn't spirituality include religion? :?
Yes it includes all religious and non-religious beliefs, but it is not religious.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Gil Dobie wrote:
kalm wrote:
Shouldn't spirituality include religion? :?
Yes it includes all religious and non-religious beliefs, but it is not religious.
I'm confused. I don't understand how staring at the world in wonder is spiritual? Some of us take our world for what it is...a beautiful, but fleeting place in the universe.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by D1B »

JoltinJoe wrote:
D1B wrote:
Thousands of people dying every day from cancer, yet god felt compelled to intervene in joes friends case.
I'll let God know you don't approve and that he should run his next idea past you before he acts.

After all, God should learn his place and that he needs to earn your approval.
This would be a good start.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by kalm »

Gil Dobie wrote:
kalm wrote:
Shouldn't spirituality include religion? :?
Yes it includes all religious and non-religious beliefs, but it is not religious.
Huh? :?
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by CAA Flagship »

Chizzang wrote:
Pwns wrote:If there were any miracles, wouldn't people just sarcastically say "so anything we don't understand = God did it, right? Tell Zeus we need some rain."?

I'm not saying this applies to anyone in particular here, but there's people that think divine action should be mountains moving or oceans parting. They completely miss life's very subtle blessings and messages. But I'm not here to try and influence anyone's religious beliefs, so I won't go too deep with that stuff.
What's even more hysterical is that Christians think they're the only people who feel life's subtle daily blessings and who see the world with a sense of wonder....

Well I've got a little secret for you Pwns
Everybody pretty much does - It's part of the human condition

Life's subtleties and discrete beauties are observed every day by billions of humans simultaneously
(even Atheists!!!)

:nod:

I talk with my Atheist friends about "The blessings and the Beauty"
And they indeed feel it and are amazed by it as well
I call it the God Feelings - which annoys them to no end

:mrgreen:
And there are people who like red football fields. :coffee:
It's a crazy world. :nod: :mrgreen:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Chizzang »

CAA Flagship wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
What's even more hysterical is that Christians think they're the only people who feel life's subtle daily blessings and who see the world with a sense of wonder....

Well I've got a little secret for you Pwns
Everybody pretty much does - It's part of the human condition

Life's subtleties and discrete beauties are observed every day by billions of humans simultaneously
(even Atheists!!!)

:nod:

I talk with my Atheist friends about "The blessings and the Beauty"
And they indeed feel it and are amazed by it as well
I call it the God Feelings - which annoys them to no end

:mrgreen:
And there are people who like red football fields. :coffee:
It's a crazy world. :nod: :mrgreen:
Personally I won't watch a game on that abomination of a football field....

:ohno:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote: And there are people who like red football fields. :coffee:
It's a crazy world. :nod: :mrgreen:
Personally I won't watch a game on that abomination of a football field....

:ohno:
Yes. And some people won't question the existence of things like angels or the belief system they were born into either...or whether god exists beyond the bible. Congrats! :clap:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Personally I won't watch a game on that abomination of a football field....

:ohno:
Yes. And some people won't question the existence of things like angels or the belief system they were born into either...or whether god exists beyond the bible. Congrats! :clap:

I don't know what gibberish you're ^ talking about, I was just wondering why Angels don't come down for visits anymore... I thought maybe they were pissed at us or something

jeeze man... stay on topic :ohno:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
Yes. And some people won't question the existence of things like angels or the belief system they were born into either...or whether god exists beyond the bible. Congrats! :clap:

I don't know what gibberish you're ^ talking about, I was just wondering why Angels don't come down for visits anymore... I thought maybe they were pissed at us or something

jeeze man... stay on topic :ohno:
Don't try and post a sober topic, then attempt to to out-ADD me, then go sober again. :tothehand:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by CID1990 »

I've seen a dude who had achieved total enlightenment; the samyaksambodhi.

thats like a Buddhist angel, right
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Ivytalk »

CID1990 wrote:I've seen a dude who had achieved total enlightenment; the samyaksambodhi.

thats like a Buddhist angel, right
Like the old Dean Martin song goes, "everybody loves sambodhi sometime..." :whistle:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by SeattleGriz »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
So you're admitting ^ that the Bible is a highly flawed and inaccurate account of "The Nature of God"...
I think we're making headway Joe

Thank you again
No, I did not say that.

But if we're going to play that game, I see that you admitted your need for an old-time, angry vengeful God as a condition of your belief. :coffee:

Why is that? Image
He isn't here to learn, for I have told him twice that he is confusing history with theology. Simple mistake made by many who just read the Bible and don't do any study.

For some reason, Cleets seems to think that man's historical accounts are synonymous with God's divinity.

Next he will tell us about the deep dark conspiracy that the Bible holds right in front of everyone's nose. LIES...that can be researched by anyone, but yet are used to dupe everyone.

ExpandoCleets. :rofl:
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by SeattleGriz »

JoltinJoe wrote:First, there are claims of angels appearing today. There was a great article in Time magazine some years ago about it. And then there are the accounts of the Battle of Mons in 1914 -- if St. Michael and an army of angels did not intervene, then this incident represents a serious case of collective delusion, given how many English troops claim to have witnessed the intervention. Granted, the whole incident can be viewed as fictitious, but still, it is a legend which has certainly taken on a life of its own with many witnesses insisting they saw the intervention.

Second, miracles occur every day. In fact, I know someone who is experiencing a rather miraculous recovery from a surgical procedure after receiving the Anointing of the Sick from a priest -- a priest who had previously performed the Anointing of the Sick on a brain cancer patient. Immediately, her cancer went into remission and disappeared. In the more recent case, the patient's doctors are saying his recovery from an intrusive intestinal surgery seems "inexplicable" in that he is demonstrating digestive functionality the doctors deemed nearly impossible. The prior case was widely reported when it occurred some years back.

Keep in mind there is likely a rational explanation for what is called a "miracle" -- it is just that our learning and knowledge has progressed to the point of explaining the cause or reason of the cure. For example, just as we don't know what the "trigger" is which causes many illnesses or diseases, we don't know whether there is a "trigger" which might cause a cure. The cancer patient mentioned above was immediately placed on a multi-hour flight, flying in excess of 35,000 feet for several hours, to undergo ground-breaking treatment being performed at a highly specialized hospital. Did the flight "trigger" a cause? If it did, we don't know why. However, perhaps the miracle was that God placed her in circumstances which -- unknown to man -- trigger a remission of brain cancer.
Not sure if you know or remember, but my wife was in her third year of post cancer, when she went in for a scheduled CT scan and was told that her cancer had returned to her lungs. Cancer coming back to the lungs is the beginning of the end. I remember being told there was nothing they could do for her and thinking I was going to cash in my 401K and fly to Europe for any sort of crazy treatment in the hopes it would spur on some sort of immune response and defeat the cancer. I remember walking down the hallway at the U of Washington Medical Center thinking I was not ready for this.

We sent out our requests for prayers and had what I would guess conservatively as 500 people praying for Jenny.

After the surgery to remove the cancerous nodule, the thoracic surgeon came out and told me, "your wife didn't have cancer, she had an infection in her lungs".

To me that was a prayer answered and to some extent, a miracle. The doctor who told Jenny that her lung cancer had returned, to this day, swears it was a cancerous nodule. This is a man who has seen thousands of CT scans and can pretty much read them with a great amount of accuracy.

I don't care if it was an infection. All I know is that I prayed for my wife to have not had the cancer returned. My prayer was answered.

Jenny today, as gorgeous as ever.

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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by D1B »

SeattleGriz wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:First, there are claims of angels appearing today. There was a great article in Time magazine some years ago about it. And then there are the accounts of the Battle of Mons in 1914 -- if St. Michael and an army of angels did not intervene, then this incident represents a serious case of collective delusion, given how many English troops claim to have witnessed the intervention. Granted, the whole incident can be viewed as fictitious, but still, it is a legend which has certainly taken on a life of its own with many witnesses insisting they saw the intervention.

Second, miracles occur every day. In fact, I know someone who is experiencing a rather miraculous recovery from a surgical procedure after receiving the Anointing of the Sick from a priest -- a priest who had previously performed the Anointing of the Sick on a brain cancer patient. Immediately, her cancer went into remission and disappeared. In the more recent case, the patient's doctors are saying his recovery from an intrusive intestinal surgery seems "inexplicable" in that he is demonstrating digestive functionality the doctors deemed nearly impossible. The prior case was widely reported when it occurred some years back.

Keep in mind there is likely a rational explanation for what is called a "miracle" -- it is just that our learning and knowledge has progressed to the point of explaining the cause or reason of the cure. For example, just as we don't know what the "trigger" is which causes many illnesses or diseases, we don't know whether there is a "trigger" which might cause a cure. The cancer patient mentioned above was immediately placed on a multi-hour flight, flying in excess of 35,000 feet for several hours, to undergo ground-breaking treatment being performed at a highly specialized hospital. Did the flight "trigger" a cause? If it did, we don't know why. However, perhaps the miracle was that God placed her in circumstances which -- unknown to man -- trigger a remission of brain cancer.
Not sure if you know or remember, but my wife was in her third year of post cancer, when she went in for a scheduled CT scan and was told that her cancer had returned to her lungs. Cancer coming back to the lungs is the beginning of the end. I remember being told there was nothing they could do for her and thinking I was going to cash in my 401K and fly to Europe for any sort of crazy treatment in the hopes it would spur on some sort of immune response and defeat the cancer. I remember walking down the hallway at the U of Washington Medical Center thinking I was not ready for this.

We sent out our requests for prayers and had what I would guess conservatively as 500 people praying for Jenny.

After the surgery to remove the cancerous nodule, the thoracic surgeon came out and told me, "your wife didn't have cancer, she had an infection in her lungs".

To me that was a prayer answered and to some extent, a miracle. The doctor who told Jenny that her lung cancer had returned, to this day, swears it was a cancerous nodule. This is a man who has seen thousands of CT scans and can pretty much read them with a great amount of accuracy.

I don't care if it was an infection. All I know is that I prayed for my wife to have not had the cancer returned. My prayer was answered.

Jenny today, as gorgeous as ever.

Image
Thousands die each year of lung cancer. I'm glad for you that god specifically chose to help you. I wish he would have helped my poor, lifelong devout catholic grandmother. I guarantee you she had at least 2750 more prayers than your wife had.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by SeattleGriz »

D1B wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
Not sure if you know or remember, but my wife was in her third year of post cancer, when she went in for a scheduled CT scan and was told that her cancer had returned to her lungs. Cancer coming back to the lungs is the beginning of the end. I remember being told there was nothing they could do for her and thinking I was going to cash in my 401K and fly to Europe for any sort of crazy treatment in the hopes it would spur on some sort of immune response and defeat the cancer. I remember walking down the hallway at the U of Washington Medical Center thinking I was not ready for this.

We sent out our requests for prayers and had what I would guess conservatively as 500 people praying for Jenny.

After the surgery to remove the cancerous nodule, the thoracic surgeon came out and told me, "your wife didn't have cancer, she had an infection in her lungs".

To me that was a prayer answered and to some extent, a miracle. The doctor who told Jenny that her lung cancer had returned, to this day, swears it was a cancerous nodule. This is a man who has seen thousands of CT scans and can pretty much read them with a great amount of accuracy.

I don't care if it was an infection. All I know is that I prayed for my wife to have not had the cancer returned. My prayer was answered.

Jenny today, as gorgeous as ever.
Thousands die each year of lung cancer. I'm glad for you that god specifically chose to help you. I wish he would have helped my poor, lifelong devout catholic grandmother. I guarantee you she had at least 2750 more prayers than your wife had.
I don't doubt it and am sorry for your loss.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:First, there are claims of angels appearing today. There was a great article in Time magazine some years ago about it. And then there are the accounts of the Battle of Mons in 1914 -- if St. Michael and an army of angels did not intervene, then this incident represents a serious case of collective delusion, given how many English troops claim to have witnessed the intervention. Granted, the whole incident can be viewed as fictitious, but still, it is a legend which has certainly taken on a life of its own with many witnesses insisting they saw the intervention.

Second, miracles occur every day. In fact, I know someone who is experiencing a rather miraculous recovery from a surgical procedure after receiving the Anointing of the Sick from a priest -- a priest who had previously performed the Anointing of the Sick on a brain cancer patient. Immediately, her cancer went into remission and disappeared. In the more recent case, the patient's doctors are saying his recovery from an intrusive intestinal surgery seems "inexplicable" in that he is demonstrating digestive functionality the doctors deemed nearly impossible. The prior case was widely reported when it occurred some years back.

Keep in mind there is likely a rational explanation for what is called a "miracle" -- it is just that our learning and knowledge has progressed to the point of explaining the cause or reason of the cure. For example, just as we don't know what the "trigger" is which causes many illnesses or diseases, we don't know whether there is a "trigger" which might cause a cure. The cancer patient mentioned above was immediately placed on a multi-hour flight, flying in excess of 35,000 feet for several hours, to undergo ground-breaking treatment being performed at a highly specialized hospital. Did the flight "trigger" a cause? If it did, we don't know why. However, perhaps the miracle was that God placed her in circumstances which -- unknown to man -- trigger a remission of brain cancer.
Not sure if you know or remember, but my wife was in her third year of post cancer, when she went in for a scheduled CT scan and was told that her cancer had returned to her lungs. Cancer coming back to the lungs is the beginning of the end. I remember being told there was nothing they could do for her and thinking I was going to cash in my 401K and fly to Europe for any sort of crazy treatment in the hopes it would spur on some sort of immune response and defeat the cancer. I remember walking down the hallway at the U of Washington Medical Center thinking I was not ready for this.

We sent out our requests for prayers and had what I would guess conservatively as 500 people praying for Jenny.

After the surgery to remove the cancerous nodule, the thoracic surgeon came out and told me, "your wife didn't have cancer, she had an infection in her lungs".

To me that was a prayer answered and to some extent, a miracle. The doctor who told Jenny that her lung cancer had returned, to this day, swears it was a cancerous nodule. This is a man who has seen thousands of CT scans and can pretty much read them with a great amount of accuracy.

I don't care if it was an infection. All I know is that I prayed for my wife to have not had the cancer returned. My prayer was answered.

Jenny today, as gorgeous as ever.

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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by JoltinJoe »

D1B wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
I'll let God know you don't approve and that he should run his next idea past you before he acts.

After all, God should learn his place and that he needs to earn your approval.
This would be a good start.
:lol:

But you see, this is why a discussion about the miraculous goes nowhere. You see the lack of proof of miracles as proof there is no God. And you see evidence of miracles as unpersuasive, because all this evidence proves to you is that God, if he exists, is an arbitrary God. And since no just God would be arbitrary, any evidence of a miracle only proves to you that there is no God.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Gil Dobie »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Yes it includes all religious and non-religious beliefs, but it is not religious.
I'm confused. I don't understand how staring at the world in wonder is spiritual? Some of us take our world for what it is...a beautiful, but fleeting place in the universe.
To me, your view is also a spiritual view. Spirituality is all inclusive.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by JoltinJoe »

D1B wrote: Thousands die each year of lung cancer. I'm glad for you that god specifically chose to help you. I wish he would have helped my poor, lifelong devout catholic grandmother. I guarantee you she had at least 2750 more prayers than your wife had.
It's beyond our understanding why. However, I'm sure there is a reason.

SG's wife has more to do here, and her experience will deepen her faith and empathy for others as she approaches her task.

There is no doubt in my mind that prayers for your grandmother were answered, in a way even greater than you imagine.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by Gil Dobie »

kalm wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Yes it includes all religious and non-religious beliefs, but it is not religious.
Huh? :?
All people that are religious are not spiritual, while all people that are spiritual are not religious. Does that make more sense?

Spirituality acknowledges that everyone's spirituality is uncompromisingly unique; no one can say what another's spiritual path could be.
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by SunCoastBlueHen »

Is praying for someone who is very sick to make a miraculous recovery really a righteous prayer? If God's plan is truly perfect, then who are we to tell him how these things should play out?
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Re: Angels... Why don't we see them anymore?

Post by kalm »

Gil Dobie wrote:
kalm wrote:
Huh? :?
All people that are religious are not spiritual, while all people that are spiritual are not religious. Does that make more sense?

Spirituality acknowledges that everyone's spirituality is uncompromisingly unique; no one can say what another's spiritual path could be.
Ah...gotcha. Well said. :thumb:
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