Russia vs USA

[houndawg]

I didn't say we should - read the "I'm not hawkish" post above. The Middle East has been a hellhole for centuries, and our intervention in tribal and religious sectarian squabbles does nothing but embolden both sides to come after us. I didn't decide to set a "red line" and dare someone to cross it. Putin will beat this administration in poker all day long and twice on Sundays.

That right there was one of the single most idiotic pieces of foreign policy over the last 20 years. You do not make ultimatums (especially with Russians or Chinese) unless you are prepared to make good on them. Period.

Much better to have not made any kind of ultimatum. Syria would be in the same shape it is in now, but I could be debated that Russia might not be quite as bold as they are being right now.

Agreed, but the game isn't over yet, is it? Putin has plenty of dick hanging out that he can still step on and I imagine he'd like to have that SAM back. Obama should be making it very clear to Europe that other than moral support and economic sanction this is their game to play.

[HI54UNI]

Things we could do that doesn't get us involved militarily at all:

-Real economic sanctions on Russia.Looks like that might have been done today.
Obama joins EU in announcing expanded economic sanctions against Russia
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07 ... latestnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Much of Europe is heavily dependent on Russia for natural gas. We are the worlds #1 energy producer, and thanks to fracking, the king kong of natural gas. Speed up the approval of export licenses to export natural gas to Europe. Get Europe off of Russia's tit and onto ours. That would hurt Russia and benefit us.
http://whowhatwhy.com/2014/07/23/gaspip ... rgy-fight/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Provide Ukraine with satellite intel on rebel troop positions and their Russian made equipment. And that's something that shouldn't be publicly announced. Heck, maybe it's already being done.

-Sell arms to Ukraine if they have the $$ to pay for anything worthwhile. Do they?. We sell arms to lots of countries. We make $$. That benefits us.

We can't export natural gas because we are going to need it to generate electricity to comply with Obama's EPA climate change plan.

[ASUG8]

That right there was one of the single most idiotic pieces of foreign policy over the last 20 years. You do not make ultimatums (especially with Russians or Chinese) unless you are prepared to make good on them. Period.

Much better to have not made any kind of ultimatum. Syria would be in the same shape it is in now, but I could be debated that Russia might not be quite as bold as they are being right now.

Agreed, but the game isn't over yet, is it? Putin has plenty of dick hanging out that he can still step on and I imagine he'd like to have that SAM back. Obama should be making it very clear to Europe that other than moral support and economic sanction this is their game to play.

Europe won't do anything other than continue to follow our lead, however misguided the decision may be. We can morally object to annexation, but it's really the Europeans that should have more to fear since this is happening in their backyard.
Meanwhile in China they continue feeding their economic machine and staying out of this as usual.

[houndawg]

Agreed, but the game isn't over yet, is it? Putin has plenty of dick hanging out that he can still step on and I imagine he'd like to have that SAM back. Obama should be making it very clear to Europe that other than moral support and economic sanction this is their game to play.

Europe won't do anything other than continue to follow our lead, however misguided the decision may be. We can morally object to annexation, but it's really the Europeans that should have more to fear since this is happening in their backyard.
Meanwhile in China they continue feeding their economic machine and staying out of this as usual.

That's their problem. Hell, let Russia go for the Ukraine and bleed themselves out with occupation just like we're doing.

[mrklean]

Why is this Russia vs USA? Why is this our problem? Why was Syria our problem?

Obama is not getting us into any wars, and I am okay with that. If Ukraine is that big of a deal, let our European "allies" handle it. We can back them up if it makes the war hawks happy, but I don't think we should be leading here.

[CID1990]

That right there was one of the single most idiotic pieces of foreign policy over the last 20 years. You do not make ultimatums (especially with Russians or Chinese) unless you are prepared to make good on them. Period.

Much better to have not made any kind of ultimatum. Syria would be in the same shape it is in now, but I could be debated that Russia might not be quite as bold as they are being right now.

Agreed, but the game isn't over yet, is it? Putin has plenty of dick hanging out that he can still step on and I imagine he'd like to have that SAM back. Obama should be making it very clear to Europe that other than moral support and economic sanction this is their game to play.

Seriously HD, does ANYONE have the stones to create real consequences for Putin if he does step on it? I mean, what more does he need to do? If I am Putin, right now I am thinking that short of actually attacking NATO countries, there isn't much that Old Europe is going to do to me.

[∞∞∞]

And the hurt continues for Russia:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24629585/th ... tor-fails/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ivytalk]

Heard on the radio this morning that Russian troops are massing on the Ukraine border.

[CID1990]

Heard on the radio this morning that Russian troops are massing on the Ukraine border.

The Ukrainian forces are surrounding Donetsk for a final offensive. If Putin is looking for a Sudeten-esque excuse, this might be it.

[Ivytalk]

Heard on the radio this morning that Russian troops are massing on the Ukraine border.

The Ukrainian forces are surrounding Donetsk for a final offensive. If Putin is looking for a Sudeten-esque excuse, this might be it.

Although the Ukies would put up stiffer resistance than the Czechs offered in '38-'39. Putin hopes to annex eastern Ukraine on the cheap. Not sure he has the stomach to grab the rest of it.

[CID1990]

The Ukrainian forces are surrounding Donetsk for a final offensive. If Putin is looking for a Sudeten-esque excuse, this might be it.

Although the Ukies would put up stiffer resistance than the Czechs offered in '38-'39. Putin hopes to annex eastern Ukraine on the cheap. Not sure he has the stomach to grab the rest of it.

TBH I think we are in dangerous territory for Putin- he stands to lose face big time if he cannot bite off a sizeable chunk of eastern Ukraine - and keep in mind that his approval rating in Russia is sky high right now precisely because of what he has been doing with Ukraine. I really think he is in the "damned with what the rest of the world thinks" mode right now.

[houndawg]

The Western nations are demanding Russia halt the alleged supply of arms to Ukrainian separatists and other actions that destabilize the situation in eastern Ukraine.

The show of Western solidarity comes as the U.S. accuses Russia of ramping up its troop presence on its border with Ukraine and shipping more heavy weaponry to the pro-Moscow rebels.

"It's precisely because we've not yet seen a strategic turn from (Russian President Vladimir) Putin that we believe it's absolutely essential to take additional measures, and that's what the Europeans and the United States intend to do this week," said Tony Blinken, Mr. Obama's deputy national security adviser.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-eu-sa ... h-ukraine/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YV2KQkBhWs[/youtube]

Putin won on the Syrian front and backed us down first, and now add to it that we decommissioned our Space Shuttle fleet with no eminent replacement, we have a $60B investment flying over our heads in the ISS, and are counting on the Russians to continue to allow us access it. We'll likely continue to get access, but the price is going up.

You think maybe a show of force might be necessary in his backyard so that he doesn't forget who calls the shots?

[ASUG8]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-eu-sa ... h-ukraine/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YV2KQkBhWs[/youtube]

Putin won on the Syrian front and backed us down first, and now add to it that we decommissioned our Space Shuttle fleet with no eminent replacement, we have a $60B investment flying over our heads in the ISS, and are counting on the Russians to continue to allow us access it. We'll likely continue to get access, but the price is going up.

You think maybe a show of force might be necessary in his backyard so that he doesn't forget who calls the shots?

I think it's pretty clear who's calling the shots, and it ain't us.

[Skjellyfetti]

No shit.

Why should we call the shots in a Ukrainian civil war?

[ASUG8]

No shit.

Why should we call the shots in a Ukrainian civil war?

We drew red lines in Syria, and rallied what we could in Europe to impose economic sanctions - seems like we're certainly trying to call the shots.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-eu-sa ... h-ukraine/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YV2KQkBhWs[/youtube]

Putin won on the Syrian front and backed us down first, and now add to it that we decommissioned our Space Shuttle fleet with no eminent replacement, we have a $60B investment flying over our heads in the ISS, and are counting on the Russians to continue to allow us access it. We'll likely continue to get access, but the price is going up.

You think maybe a show of force might be necessary in his backyard so that he doesn't forget who calls the shots?

Nope, because he calls the shots and he knows it. He is a man and a leader, he can do what he wants and will bitch slap our idiot like Ike did Tina, just on a national stage.

[Grizalltheway]

He's also a sociopathic autocrat, which I'm sure a freedom loving fella like yourself approves of.

[CitadelGrad]

No shit.

Why should we call the shots in a Ukrainian civil war?

You believe it's a civil war?

Dumbass.

[Bronco]

-
I bet they had a laugh when the useful idiots voted BHO in for a second term

[Skjellyfetti]

I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy... I was able to get a sense of his soul.

[houndawg]

You think maybe a show of force might be necessary in his backyard so that he doesn't forget who calls the shots?

Nope, because he calls the shots and he knows it. He is a man and a leader, he can do what he wants and will bitch slap our idiot like Ike did Tina, just on a national stage.

..like Osama did...oh, wait....wrong idiot...

[houndawg]

No ****.

Why should we call the shots in a Ukrainian civil war?

We drew red lines in Syria, and rallied what we could in Europe to impose economic sanctions - seems like we're certainly trying to call the shots.

Maybe we have a better sense of our limits now?

[ASUG8]

We drew red lines in Syria, and rallied what we could in Europe to impose economic sanctions - seems like we're certainly trying to call the shots.

Maybe we have a better sense of our limits now?

It would be nice if the majority of the voting public had a sense of that in 2007-2008.

[DSUrocks07]

Maybe we have a better sense of our limits now?

It would be nice if the majority of the voting public had a sense of that in 2007-2008.

McCain would be the absolute worst person to deal with this right now.

[SDHornet]

We drew red lines in Syria, and rallied what we could in Europe to impose economic sanctions - seems like we're certainly trying to call the shots.

Maybe we have a better sense of our limits now?