This shat just went next level

[houndawg]

90% of the recovered black boxes have some combination of "AAAAAUUUUUGGGGHHHH!", "Holy ****!" or "**** me!!"

You forgot "allah hu snackbar".

Sum Ting Wong...

[kalm]

I thought black boxes were for AZ's alone time.

[CID1990]

I thought black boxes were for AZ's alone time.

lawl

[93henfan]

I thought black boxes were for AZ's alone time.

Tastes like chicken!

[AZGrizFan]

I thought black boxes were for AZ's alone time.

[CID1990]

Care to be more specific?

Not right at this moment, no.

OK

I was waiting for some open source reporting on the matter so here it is

Russia is a mafia state and the way you put these gangsters in check is by hitting them in the pocketbook

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... 07-25-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[YoUDeeMan]

Not right at this moment, no.

OK

I was waiting for some open source reporting on the matter so here it is

Russia is a mafia state and the way you put these gangsters in check is by hitting them in the pocketbook

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... 07-25-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

C'mon, CID, our leaders do not want to get into a war of exposing who has money where and who is supporting murderous regimes across the globe. They'd have to take back Obama's Nobel Peace prize.

Cripes, our leaders didn't want Wikileaks exposing stuff...imagine the embarrassment that would ensue, and the outrage that would follow, if the capitalists' dirty deals and gobs of money were exposed to sunshine.

[Skjellyfetti]

Not right at this moment, no.

OK

I was waiting for some open source reporting on the matter so here it is

Russia is a mafia state and the way you put these gangsters in check is by hitting them in the pocketbook

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... 07-25-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just curious if this is still your position.

And what you would think about Trump rolling back sanctions.

And what you would think about Exxon's $500 billion dollar deal with Rosneft that probably go forward when Trump rolls back sanctions.

[CID1990]

OK

I was waiting for some open source reporting on the matter so here it is

Russia is a mafia state and the way you put these gangsters in check is by hitting them in the pocketbook

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... 07-25-2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just curious if this is still your position.

And what you would think about Trump rolling back sanctions.

And what you would think about Exxon's $500 billion dollar deal with Rosneft that probably go forward when Trump rolls back sanctions.

Why would my position be any different, Jelloy?

The ship on good relations with Russia sailed in 1992

Make nice, or ramp up tensions. Both are viable options at this moment in time. Fortunately, EVERYBODYS suddenly a Russia hawk (because suddenly it is 1980 again)

Maybe I should ask YOU-

Where were you when everyone was laughing at Romney over Obama's "mic drop" Russia comment during the 2012 debate?









Honestly, I would disagree with loosening economic sanctions on Russia. We should be squeezing them hard. It makes me sad though- we missed a golden opportunity to cultivate a natural ally. That is on Bush I, Clinton (a lot - see Kosovo), Bush II, Obama, and now Trump isgoing to appease them.

[YoUDeeMan]

It really is simple...treat Russia as a potential ally instead of an enemy.

They are no worse than we, you know...we, the leader of propping up democratically elected states across the globe and...

Wait, I can't finish typing that without laughing hysterically.

Russia isn't the enemy. They aren't. They'll do things in their best interest (oooooooooooooohhh, surprise), and that seems to bother some corporate globalists that see eastern Europe as a ripe market to develop.

This has NOTHING to do with human rights or governments led by bad people (there are too many of those that we support) and it has EVERYTHING to do with competing markets. We, the US and our global dominating market Euro friends, want access to land and markets in Russia's sphere of influence.

Stop the nonsense. Make up with Russia.

China is the real problem...along with the nut job Muslin clowns.

[Skjellyfetti]

Maybe I should ask YOU-

Where were you when everyone was laughing at Romney over Obama's "mic drop" Russia comment during the 2012 debate?

I'm not a hawk on Russia.

I know posting in threads on Russia may give an impression that I am - but, I'm not arguing for a position, just clarifying what I see as a shift by Republicans on Russia.

You are pretty consistent, though.

[Skjellyfetti]

Russia isn't the enemy. They aren't. They'll do things in their best interest (oooooooooooooohhh, surprise), and that seems to bother some corporate globalists that see eastern Europe as a ripe market to develop.

This has NOTHING to do with human rights or governments led by bad people (there are too many of those that we support) and it has EVERYTHING to do with competing markets. We, the US and our global dominating market Euro friends, want access to land and markets in Russia's sphere of influence.

Stop the nonsense. Make up with Russia.

China is the real problem...

How do differentiate between China and Russia using that logic, though?

Couldn't you insert China into your post on Russia and it still be valid?

China isn't the enemy. They aren't. They'll do things in their best interest ((oooooooooooooohhh, surprise), and that seems to bother some corporate globalists that see Asia as a ripe market to develop.

This has NOTHING to do with human rights or governments led by bad people (there are too many of those that we support) and it has EVERYTHING to do with competing markets. We, the US and our global dominating market Euro friends, want access to land and markets in China's sphere of influence.

Stop the nonsense. Makeup with China.

Not arguing that China isn't a bigger threat to us than Russia.

Just trying to follow your logic as to how you differentiate between the two.

[Ibanez]

It really is simple...treat Russia as a potential ally instead of an enemy.

They are no worse than we, you know...we, the leader of propping up democratically elected states across the globe and...

Wait, I can't finish typing that without laughing hysterically.

Russia isn't the enemy. They aren't. They'll do things in their best interest (oooooooooooooohhh, surprise), and that seems to bother some corporate globalists that see eastern Europe as a ripe market to develop.

This has NOTHING to do with human rights or governments led by bad people (there are too many of those that we support) and it has EVERYTHING to do with competing markets. We, the US and our global dominating market Euro friends, want access to land and markets in Russia's sphere of influence.

Stop the nonsense. Make up with Russia.

China is the real problem...along with the nut job Muslin clowns.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.


I just came up with that.

[YoUDeeMan]

Russia isn't the enemy. They aren't. They'll do things in their best interest (oooooooooooooohhh, surprise), and that seems to bother some corporate globalists that see eastern Europe as a ripe market to develop.

This has NOTHING to do with human rights or governments led by bad people (there are too many of those that we support) and it has EVERYTHING to do with competing markets. We, the US and our global dominating market Euro friends, want access to land and markets in Russia's sphere of influence.

Stop the nonsense. Make up with Russia.

China is the real problem...

How do differentiate between China and Russia using that logic, though?

Couldn't you insert China into your post on Russia and it still be valid?

China isn't the enemy. They aren't. They'll do things in their best interest ((oooooooooooooohhh, surprise), and that seems to bother some corporate globalists that see Asia as a ripe market to develop.

This has NOTHING to do with human rights or governments led by bad people (there are too many of those that we support) and it has EVERYTHING to do with competing markets. We, the US and our global dominating market Euro friends, want access to land and markets in China's sphere of influence.

Stop the nonsense. Makeup with China.

Not arguing that China isn't a bigger threat to us than Russia.

Just trying to follow your logic as to how you differentiate between the two.

Uhhhh...quite easily...for several reasons.

China plays the long game better than anyone...and is far more ruthless.

Russia and the US have FAR more in common than China and the US.

Culturally, Russia and China are world's apart (see #1 and #2). The Chinese aren't interested in assimilation.

Lastly, to compare the threat posed by China, with 1.4 BILLION people, to the threat posed by Russia, with 143.5 million people, is absurd.

Everyone plays to their own interests. Everyone. But Russia can be more of an ally than China. However, Russia is being demonized because of their proximity to our European friends. There is a great effort to flip a few eastern European governments...and then the largest country in the world, and all its untapped resources, is open for business. Think the Arctic won't become a giant, heavily trafficked trade route if that happens?

Cripes, environmentalists should be fighting for an independent Russia as a bulwark against an all out assault on the Arctic.

[Ivytalk]

How do differentiate between China and Russia using that logic, though?

Couldn't you insert China into your post on Russia and it still be valid?




Not arguing that China isn't a bigger threat to us than Russia.

Just trying to follow your logic as to how you differentiate between the two.

Uhhhh...quite easily...for several reasons.

China plays the long game better than anyone...and is far more ruthless.

Russia and the US have FAR more in common than China and the US.

Culturally, Russia and China are world's apart (see #1 and #2). The Chinese aren't interested in assimilation.

Lastly, to compare the threat posed by China, with 1.4 BILLION people, to the threat posed by Russia, with 143.5 million people, is absurd.

Everyone plays to their own interests. Everyone. But Russia can be more of an ally than China. However, Russia is being demonized because of their proximity to our European friends. There is a great effort to flip a few eastern European governments...and then the largest country in the world, and all its untapped resources, is open for business. Think the Arctic won't become a giant, heavily trafficked trade route if that happens?

Cripes, environmentalists should be fighting for an independent Russia as a bulwark against an all out assault on the Arctic.

I don't understand why people here keep saying that Russia is a "natural ally" of the US. Hasn't been true since 1917. We almost went to war with them in 1962, and there aren't that many cultural similarities. I'll grant you that the problems with China run deeper, but saying that we should drop everything and embrace the Russians is naive. Cold War apparatchiks still run that country, which has NO democratic/republican (small "r" in both cases) traditions. Don't do anything stupid, but keep them at arm's length.

[YoUDeeMan]

I don't understand why people here keep saying that Russia is a "natural ally" of the US. Hasn't been true since 1917. We almost went to war with them in 1962, and there aren't that many cultural similarities. I'll grant you that the problems with China run deeper, but saying that we should drop everything and embrace the Russians is naive. Cold War apparatchiks still run that country, which has NO democratic/republican (small "r" in both cases) traditions. Don't do anything stupid, but keep them at arm's length.

We're really not much better, Ivy.

We coddle up to dictators on all continents...killing or deposing ones we don't like, and propping up those we like (that will do our business). And, we overthrow democratically elected leaders that were elected to replace those dictators...and replace them, by force, with our cronies.

I find it humorous that anyone has the willingness to be upset with the way Putin & Co. do business...especially when our leaders, doing the same thing, get awarded a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Ivytalk]

I don't understand why people here keep saying that Russia is a "natural ally" of the US. Hasn't been true since 1917. We almost went to war with them in 1962, and there aren't that many cultural similarities. I'll grant you that the problems with China run deeper, but saying that we should drop everything and embrace the Russians is naive. Cold War apparatchiks still run that country, which has NO democratic/republican (small "r" in both cases) traditions. Don't do anything stupid, but keep them at arm's length.

We're really not much better, Ivy.

We coddle up to dictators on all continents...killing or deposing ones we don't like, and propping up those we like (that will do our business). And, we overthrow democratically elected leaders that were elected to replace those dictators...and replace them, by force, with our cronies.

I find it humorous that anyone has the willingness to be upset with the way Putin & Co. do business...especially when our leaders, doing the same thing, get awarded a Nobel Peace Prize.

Cluck, I don't buy the "moral equivalence" theory. The fact that the two governments engaged in improper foreign meddling -- which I will readily admit -- doesn't mean that the US and the USSR are "natural allies." Even when the two countries were officially allied against the Nazis, relations were tense. Witness the Yalta, Potsdam, and (to a lesser extent) Tehran conferences. Russian history has authoritarian antecedents for centuries, even before communism. Russia came late to the Industrial Revolution and lacks the entrepreneurial business traditions of America that impressed foreign commentators back to the time of Tocqueville. There is no "natural fit" here, much less a tradition of trust that would support an active collaboration. I will grant you that the Chinese situation is far worse.

[GannonFan]

We're really not much better, Ivy.

We coddle up to dictators on all continents...killing or deposing ones we don't like, and propping up those we like (that will do our business). And, we overthrow democratically elected leaders that were elected to replace those dictators...and replace them, by force, with our cronies.

I find it humorous that anyone has the willingness to be upset with the way Putin & Co. do business...especially when our leaders, doing the same thing, get awarded a Nobel Peace Prize.

Cluck, I don't buy the "moral equivalence" theory. The fact that the two governments engaged in improper foreign meddling -- which I will readily admit -- doesn't mean that the US and the USSR are "natural allies." Even when the two countries were officially allied against the Nazis, relations were tense. Witness the Yalta, Potsdam, and (to a lesser extent) Tehran conferences. Russian history has authoritarian antecedents for centuries, even before communism. Russia came late to the Industrial Revolution and lacks the entrepreneurial business traditions of America that impressed foreign commentators back to the time of Tocqueville. There is no "natural fit" here, much less a tradition of trust that would support an active collaboration. I will grant you that the Chinese situation is far worse.

Agreed - there's no natural allies part of the US and Russia really at all. Just entirely different backgrounds, histories, and cultures. And yes, it's even more the case with China. Gonna have to find a way to get along, though. Frankly, I'd be interested in us getting friendlier with India. They may never completely rise out of the poverty they've been stuck in, but there's obviously a fair amount of immigration here from there and although British colonialism wasn't a walk in the park, it has given India a distinctive Western-ness that the other two countries don't necessarily have.

[houndawg]

Just curious if this is still your position.

And what you would think about Trump rolling back sanctions.

And what you would think about Exxon's $500 billion dollar deal with Rosneft that probably go forward when Trump rolls back sanctions.

Why would my position be any different, Jelloy?

The ship on good relations with Russia sailed in 1992

Make nice, or ramp up tensions. Both are viable options at this moment in time. Fortunately, EVERYBODYS suddenly a Russia hawk (because suddenly it is 1980 again)

Maybe I should ask YOU-

Where were you when everyone was laughing at Romney over Obama's "mic drop" Russia comment during the 2012 debate?









Honestly, I would disagree with loosening economic sanctions on Russia. We should be squeezing them hard. It makes me sad though- we missed a golden opportunity to cultivate a natural ally. That is on Bush I, Clinton (a lot - see Kosovo), Bush II, Obama, and now Trump isgoing to appease them.

Trump isn't.


Putin is about the only person Trump doesn't attack.

[Wedgebuster]

Apparently Trump is really pissed about a CIA leak referring to a special golden service that he ordered up for entertainment while on a business trip to Russia.

Could go a long way to 'splain that strange mop he wears on his head..

[Grizalltheway]

Why would my position be any different, Jelloy?

The ship on good relations with Russia sailed in 1992

Make nice, or ramp up tensions. Both are viable options at this moment in time. Fortunately, EVERYBODYS suddenly a Russia hawk (because suddenly it is 1980 again)

Maybe I should ask YOU-

Where were you when everyone was laughing at Romney over Obama's "mic drop" Russia comment during the 2012 debate?









Honestly, I would disagree with loosening economic sanctions on Russia. We should be squeezing them hard. It makes me sad though- we missed a golden opportunity to cultivate a natural ally. That is on Bush I, Clinton (a lot - see Kosovo), Bush II, Obama, and now Trump isgoing to appease them.

Trump isn't.


Putin is about the only person Trump doesn't attack.

Just like any good errand boy.

[CID1990]

Uhhhh...quite easily...for several reasons.

China plays the long game better than anyone...and is far more ruthless.

Russia and the US have FAR more in common than China and the US.

Culturally, Russia and China are world's apart (see #1 and #2). The Chinese aren't interested in assimilation.

Lastly, to compare the threat posed by China, with 1.4 BILLION people, to the threat posed by Russia, with 143.5 million people, is absurd.

Everyone plays to their own interests. Everyone. But Russia can be more of an ally than China. However, Russia is being demonized because of their proximity to our European friends. There is a great effort to flip a few eastern European governments...and then the largest country in the world, and all its untapped resources, is open for business. Think the Arctic won't become a giant, heavily trafficked trade route if that happens?

Cripes, environmentalists should be fighting for an independent Russia as a bulwark against an all out assault on the Arctic.

I don't understand why people here keep saying that Russia is a "natural ally" of the US. Hasn't been true since 1917. We almost went to war with them in 1962, and there aren't that many cultural similarities. I'll grant you that the problems with China run deeper, but saying that we should drop everything and embrace the Russians is naive. Cold War apparatchiks still run that country, which has NO democratic/republican (small "r" in both cases) traditions. Don't do anything stupid, but keep them at arm's length.

We are natural allies given that our interests intersect in many more ways than they diverge.

China is a large part of that, and the fact that we are not economic competitors is another. In terms of the trajectory of the 20th century, the 100 years since the fall of the Romanov is not all that significant. There was a LOT of pro-American sentiment in Russia prior to 1917' but remember that there was also a lot of pro-American sentiment in Russia in the 1980s. American made blue jeans were the hottest item in Moscow, American pop culture was informing Russian pop culture, etc. When the wall came down we had the easiest foreign relations opportunity in the history of our country and we blew it.

When the Soviet Union broke apart, we immediately began courting every single former Soviet Republic, except one- Russia. We took the Soviet Union down in an economic sense, and then while Muscovites were standing in bread lines, we were courting the entirety of Eastern Europe for NATO membership, and offering nothing to Russia in terms of assistance in governance or economics. Russia was literally an anarchic state without the bomb throwers, and that is the fastest route to oligarchy.

Russia is a "natural" ally in terms of the fact that our "enmity" was solely created by our own actions. If we to had not expanded NATO, it could be argued that there would be no Vladimir Putin. Sergey Lavrov is the standard bearer of a populist anti-American movement among Russians young and old who harbor a lot of resentment towards America not because of our relations from 1920-1990, but because of our actions since 1990. Vladimir Putin is just the manifestation of the populist movement in Russia. Boris Yeltsin wasn't a Cold War apparatchik and his successors wouldn't have been, either had WE not been acting like the Cold War was still in full swing.

There are a million and one reasons why will will never have many friends in the Levant or in China. There is literally no rational reason for our enmity with Russia. Keep sanctions in place for now (as a lever for future nuclear disarmament without cheating), and simultaneously ramp down NATO's presence and influence in Eastern Europe. Take advantage of Russia's highly educated tech sector to locate a few high end businesses there in return for economic reforms (weakening the oligarchs)- and we'll have our natural ally in 15 years. They will also leave Ukraine alone with little to no prodding. All we need is a few good faith efforts.

Don't go all soft on us because Russians are hard people, Ivy. There are plenty of abhorrent people in the world who we prop up and the Russians are nowhere near as bad.

[YoUDeeMan]

I don't understand why people here keep saying that Russia is a "natural ally" of the US. Hasn't been true since 1917. We almost went to war with them in 1962, and there aren't that many cultural similarities. I'll grant you that the problems with China run deeper, but saying that we should drop everything and embrace the Russians is naive. Cold War apparatchiks still run that country, which has NO democratic/republican (small "r" in both cases) traditions. Don't do anything stupid, but keep them at arm's length.

We are natural allies given that our interests intersect in many more ways than they diverge.

China is a large part of that, and the fact that we are not economic competitors is another. In terms of the trajectory of the 20th century, the 100 years since the fall of the Romanov is not all that significant. There was a LOT of pro-American sentiment in Russia prior to 1917' but remember that there was also a lot of pro-American sentiment in Russia in the 1980s. American made blue jeans were the hottest item in Moscow, American pop culture was informing Russian pop culture, etc. When the wall came down we had the easiest foreign relations opportunity in the history of our country and we blew it.

When the Soviet Union broke apart, we immediately began courting every single former Soviet Republic, except one- Russia. We took the Soviet Union down in an economic sense, and then while Muscovites were standing in bread lines, we were courting the entirety of Eastern Europe for NATO membership, and offering nothing to Russia in terms of assistance in governance or economics. Russia was literally an anarchic state without the bomb throwers, and that is the fastest route to oligarchy.

Russia is a "natural" ally in terms of the fact that our "enmity" was solely created by our own actions. If we to had not expanded NATO, it could be argued that there would be no Vladimir Putin. Sergey Lavrov is the standard bearer of a populist anti-American movement among Russians young and old who harbor a lot of resentment towards America not because of our relations from 1920-1990, but because of our actions since 1990. Vladimir Putin is just the manifestation of the populist movement in Russia. Boris Yeltsin wasn't a Cold War apparatchik and his successors wouldn't have been, either had WE not been acting like the Cold War was still in full swing.

There are a million and one reasons why will will never have many friends in the Levant or in China. There is literally no rational reason for our enmity with Russia. Keep sanctions in place for now (as a lever for future nuclear disarmament without cheating), and simultaneously ramp down NATO's presence and influence in Eastern Europe. Take advantage of Russia's highly educated tech sector to locate a few high end businesses there in return for economic reforms (weakening the oligarchs)- and we'll have our natural ally in 15 years. They will also leave Ukraine alone with little to no prodding. All we need is a few good faith efforts.

Don't go all soft on us because Russians are hard people, Ivy. There are plenty of abhorrent people in the world who we prop up and the Russians are nowhere near as bad.

Ta-da!

Someone has been paying attention to history. CID's wonderful summary should just about resolve most people's questions about our current relationship with Russia...and the possibility of better relations for the future.

Unfortunately, there are some people that have other ideas.

Which leads us to the only thing that CID1990 missed...the reason that the West so quickly courted the former Eastern Bloc nations to the exclusion of Russia. It wasn't a direct military reason...Russia was beaten and had little appetite, or ability, to launch an assault.

So, what could be the reason why the West would want to get into Eastern Europe. Hmmmm....let me think. What could powerful Western leaders possibly want with a newly opened expanse of land, resources, and people...and an idea that those people would need protection?

Give me a minute...it'll come to me...

[kalm]

We are natural allies given that our interests intersect in many more ways than they diverge.

China is a large part of that, and the fact that we are not economic competitors is another. In terms of the trajectory of the 20th century, the 100 years since the fall of the Romanov is not all that significant. There was a LOT of pro-American sentiment in Russia prior to 1917' but remember that there was also a lot of pro-American sentiment in Russia in the 1980s. American made blue jeans were the hottest item in Moscow, American pop culture was informing Russian pop culture, etc. When the wall came down we had the easiest foreign relations opportunity in the history of our country and we blew it.

When the Soviet Union broke apart, we immediately began courting every single former Soviet Republic, except one- Russia. We took the Soviet Union down in an economic sense, and then while Muscovites were standing in bread lines, we were courting the entirety of Eastern Europe for NATO membership, and offering nothing to Russia in terms of assistance in governance or economics. Russia was literally an anarchic state without the bomb throwers, and that is the fastest route to oligarchy.

Russia is a "natural" ally in terms of the fact that our "enmity" was solely created by our own actions. If we to had not expanded NATO, it could be argued that there would be no Vladimir Putin. Sergey Lavrov is the standard bearer of a populist anti-American movement among Russians young and old who harbor a lot of resentment towards America not because of our relations from 1920-1990, but because of our actions since 1990. Vladimir Putin is just the manifestation of the populist movement in Russia. Boris Yeltsin wasn't a Cold War apparatchik and his successors wouldn't have been, either had WE not been acting like the Cold War was still in full swing.

There are a million and one reasons why will will never have many friends in the Levant or in China. There is literally no rational reason for our enmity with Russia. Keep sanctions in place for now (as a lever for future nuclear disarmament without cheating), and simultaneously ramp down NATO's presence and influence in Eastern Europe. Take advantage of Russia's highly educated tech sector to locate a few high end businesses there in return for economic reforms (weakening the oligarchs)- and we'll have our natural ally in 15 years. They will also leave Ukraine alone with little to no prodding. All we need is a few good faith efforts.

Don't go all soft on us because Russians are hard people, Ivy. There are plenty of abhorrent people in the world who we prop up and the Russians are nowhere near as bad.

Ta-da!

Someone has been paying attention to history. CID's wonderful summary should just about resolve most people's questions about our current relationship with Russia...and the possibility of better relations for the future.

Unfortunately, there are some people that have other ideas.

Which leads us to the only thing that CID1990 missed...the reason that the West so quickly courted the former Eastern Bloc nations to the exclusion of Russia. It wasn't a direct military reason...Russia was beaten and had little appetite, or ability, to launch an assault.

So, what could be the reason why the West would want to get into Eastern Europe. Hmmmm....let me think. What could powerful Western leaders possibly want with a newly opened expanse of land, resources, and people...and an idea that those people would need protection?

Give me a minute...it'll come to me...

Czech porn!!!

[Ivytalk]

I don't understand why people here keep saying that Russia is a "natural ally" of the US. Hasn't been true since 1917. We almost went to war with them in 1962, and there aren't that many cultural similarities. I'll grant you that the problems with China run deeper, but saying that we should drop everything and embrace the Russians is naive. Cold War apparatchiks still run that country, which has NO democratic/republican (small "r" in both cases) traditions. Don't do anything stupid, but keep them at arm's length.

We are natural allies given that our interests intersect in many more ways than they diverge.

China is a large part of that, and the fact that we are not economic competitors is another. In terms of the trajectory of the 20th century, the 100 years since the fall of the Romanov is not all that significant. There was a LOT of pro-American sentiment in Russia prior to 1917' but remember that there was also a lot of pro-American sentiment in Russia in the 1980s. American made blue jeans were the hottest item in Moscow, American pop culture was informing Russian pop culture, etc. When the wall came down we had the easiest foreign relations opportunity in the history of our country and we blew it.

When the Soviet Union broke apart, we immediately began courting every single former Soviet Republic, except one- Russia. We took the Soviet Union down in an economic sense, and then while Muscovites were standing in bread lines, we were courting the entirety of Eastern Europe for NATO membership, and offering nothing to Russia in terms of assistance in governance or economics. Russia was literally an anarchic state without the bomb throwers, and that is the fastest route to oligarchy.

Russia is a "natural" ally in terms of the fact that our "enmity" was solely created by our own actions. If we to had not expanded NATO, it could be argued that there would be no Vladimir Putin. Sergey Lavrov is the standard bearer of a populist anti-American movement among Russians young and old who harbor a lot of resentment towards America not because of our relations from 1920-1990, but because of our actions since 1990. Vladimir Putin is just the manifestation of the populist movement in Russia. Boris Yeltsin wasn't a Cold War apparatchik and his successors wouldn't have been, either had WE not been acting like the Cold War was still in full swing.

There are a million and one reasons why will will never have many friends in the Levant or in China. There is literally no rational reason for our enmity with Russia. Keep sanctions in place for now (as a lever for future nuclear disarmament without cheating), and simultaneously ramp down NATO's presence and influence in Eastern Europe. Take advantage of Russia's highly educated tech sector to locate a few high end businesses there in return for economic reforms (weakening the oligarchs)- and we'll have our natural ally in 15 years. They will also leave Ukraine alone with little to no prodding. All we need is a few good faith efforts.

Don't go all soft on us because Russians are hard people, Ivy. There are plenty of abhorrent people in the world who we prop up and the Russians are nowhere near as bad.

I don't know what you mean by "going all soft" on this subject, CID. I disagree with several points that you make, but I'll keep it respectful. Yeltsin may have been a corrupt buffoon, but he was a long-time CCCP member and Order of Lenin winner who named -- you guessed it -- Putin as his desired successor. While several former Warsaw Pact countries have joined NATO, not a single former Soviet republic has come on board, except the Baltic States -- where Russians are ethnic minorities. Most of those former republics are thugocracies themselves, still within the Russian geopolitical orbit. While you cite pop culture and blue jeans as optimistic signs for a future rapprochement with Russia, you don't address my point (made in another post) about a fundamental cultural difference: the historical weakness of private property rights in Russia. Centuries of serfdom are difficult to overcome. Richard Pipes cited that weakness as one factor in the Bolsheviks' rise to power, and it has hampered Russian economic development to this day. Outside of the energy sector, where Russia benefits from an abundance of natural resources, I can't think of a single business segment where Russia has prospered since 1990. Given the shrinking Russian population and its limited purchasing power, why would US manufacturing (or tech, for that matter) companies flock to relocate there?

In sum, I'm fundamentally more skeptical about long-term Russia-US relations than you are. I'm also not sanguine about teaming up with Russia against China, although there have been certain tensions between Russia and China in the energy and weapons sectors. Recall the 2001 "friendship treaty" between Russia and China, raised by China just last year in the escalating tensions about the South China Sea. I will agree with you and Cluck that meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations should be avoided where possible. Peace, out.