This shat just went next level

[Ibanez]

for example, see SK's very recent attempt to question whether or not Ukrainian rebels are responsible for shooting down the Malaysian AL 777.

Huh? When did I do this?

BDK questioned it.

[CID1990]

for example, see SK's very recent attempt to question whether or not Ukrainian rebels are responsible for shooting down the Malaysian AL 777.

Huh? When did I do this?

excuse me- i had Ukrainian rebels on the brain and meant to type Russians

And yes, you were right out of the gate questioning people who were suggesting that the Russians supplied the hardware AND using Voice of Putin er I mean Voice of Russia as your source

[Ibanez]

Also, lots of conclusions being jumped to about Russia obviously providing the separatists with AA weapons.

They easily could have the weapons from Ukrainian bases they've seized.

example:
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_2 ... tion-1561/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CID1990]

Also, lots of conclusions being jumped to about Russia obviously providing the separatists with AA weapons.

They easily could have the weapons from Ukrainian bases they've seized.

example:
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_2 ... tion-1561/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

technically he's right- he didnt suggest that the rebels werent to blame

he made an equally absurd but different suggestion

liberals- covering for Russians since 1922

its genetic or something

[Skjellyfetti]

Also, lots of conclusions being jumped to about Russia obviously providing the separatists with AA weapons.

They easily could have the weapons from Ukrainian bases they've seized.

example:
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_2 ... tion-1561/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just checking: you and Cid1990 believe this report to be false?

Because... the Ukrainian government has confirmed it... though, they say the missle systems were made inoperable before they were seized by the separtists... so, you have to choose whether to believe a) the Russian government or b) the Ukrainian government.

Neither option is good.

Which brings me back to my original point: way too much isn't known about this, so let's not break out the jump-to-conclusions map. Or, as Cid said:

the key is to not say anything until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you are correct

[andy7171]

Just checking: you and Cid1990 believe this report to be false?

Just checking. Didn't Russia invade and annex Crimeana? So whether or not the rebels got the AA weaponry from Russia directly or from seized bases, isn't Putin still ultimately to blame? I mean that's how Reagan got blamed for 9/11 right?

[ASUG8]

Just checking: you and Cid1990 believe this report to be false?

Just checking. Didn't Russia invade and annex Crimeana? So whether or not the rebels got the AA weaponry from Russia directly or from seized bases, isn't Putin still ultimately to blame? I mean that's how Reagan got blamed for 9/11 right?

Nothing positive has ever resulted from having a Republican in office. Once you accept that, things will be easier.

[Ibanez]

Just checking: you and Cid1990 believe this report to be false?

Because... the Ukrainian government has confirmed it... though, they say the missle systems were made inoperable before they were seized by the separtists... so, you have to choose whether to believe a) the Russian government or b) the Ukrainian government.

Neither option is good.

Which brings me back to my original point: way too much isn't known about this, so let's not break out the jump-to-conclusions map. Or, as Cid said:

the key is to not say anything until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you are correct

I haven't read the report. But I have made my position quite clear: pro-Russian separatists, with the help of Russian military personnel, took down the plane thinking it was a Ukrainian cargo plane.

[Skjellyfetti]

Well, I can agree with that.

[Ibanez]

Well, I can agree with that.

It was BDK who balked at my assertion that the rebels did this.

[CAA Flagship]

People are quick to point out that this event undermines Putin's agenda, therefore, this was not intentional.
Whether true or not, Putin will likely seize this opportunity to see just how determined the international community is to stop Russia's aggression. They took Crimea with little international pushback. They are testing the waters with Ukraine by using separatists while the Russian forces are assembling at the border. The international community has thus far simply slapped the hand of Russia with low level sanctions. These sanctions also cause varying degrees of economic pain for the community of nations imposing the sanctions. The more the sanctions are ramped up, the more pain countries like Germany will suffer. Putin may be trying to see just how much pain these countries can endure. Economic Globalization may have created this monster, or at least is preventing anyone from stopping the aggression to date. A tangled web.

[CID1990]

Just checking: you and Cid1990 believe this report to be false?

Because... the Ukrainian government has confirmed it... though, they say the missle systems were made inoperable before they were seized by the separtists... so, you have to choose whether to believe a) the Russian government or b) the Ukrainian government.

Neither option is good.

Which brings me back to my original point: way too much isn't known about this, so let's not break out the jump-to-conclusions map. Or, as Cid said:

the key is to not say anything until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you are correct

The reports of missiles being seized by separatists is immaterial but you arent that sophisticated so Ill give you a pass

you dont just drive off with a SA-11 launcher, crank it up, target a plane and shoot it. this particular AA missile requires very specific expertise and the Ukrainians did not show the rebels how to use it. in fact it is more likely than not that there was a Russian technician manning the thing

additionally the previously posted photos of the track launcher being hustled back across the Russian border are accurate. in fact there were as many as 3 launchers

if they belonged to the Ukrainians it would be advantageous to leave them in Ukraine if you are a Russian

you went with a source that is a known shill for the Putin government because its your liberal predisposition - you cant help yourself. Russia precipitated, abetted, supplied and advised this slow burn in Ukraine. and they showed the rebels how to operate that SAM launcher which they had already used to shoot down other aircraft

[CAA Flagship]

Black Boxes.
It can't be that the technology does not exist to capture the information remotely. We get all this same information from the space shuttle remotely. It has to be a cost issue, right?

[andy7171]

Black Boxes.
It can't be that the technology does not exist to capture the information remotely. We get all this same information from the space shuttle remotely. It has to be a cost issue, right?

I thought black boxes were to help find the crash site, or explain WTF happened in case you couldn't find anything but it. IE the other Malaysian jet over the who knows where.

[Cap'n Cat]

Black Boxes.
It can't be that the technology does not exist to capture the information remotely. We get all this same information from the space shuttle remotely. It has to be a cost issue, right?

Agreed 10,000%. I can watch my plant's machines running in Minnesota from a cabin in northern Wisconsin and we haven't figured out how to broadcast that shit out of a plane and collect it somewhere?

Of course, if we did that, fucks like grizzaholic would hack it and shut off the fuel to the engines just cuz some wolf ate a lamb in Idaho....

[Col Hogan]

The black boxes will not tell who fired the missile...They will show a plane operating normally that had a sudden decompression event and may capture the final words of the flight crew ...nothing more.


The intent of the black boxes is to capture information within the plane....not external to the craft.

[Ivytalk]

The black boxes will not tell who fired the missile...They will show a plane operating normally that had a sudden decompression event and may capture the final words of the flight crew ...nothing more.


The intent of the black boxes is to capture information within the plane....not external to the craft.

90% of the recovered black boxes have some combination of "AAAAAUUUUUGGGGHHHH!", "Holy shit!" or "Fuck me!!"

[93henfan]

The black boxes will not tell who fired the missile...They will show a plane operating normally that had a sudden decompression event and may capture the final words of the flight crew ...nothing more.


The intent of the black boxes is to capture information within the plane....not external to the craft.

90% of the recovered black boxes have some combination of "AAAAAUUUUUGGGGHHHH!", "Holy shit!" or "Fuck me!!"

You forgot "allah hu snackbar".

[andy7171]

90% of the recovered black boxes have some combination of "AAAAAUUUUUGGGGHHHH!", "Holy shit!" or "Fuck me!!"

You forgot "allah hu snackbar".

That's disgusting! You sick fuck!

[93henfan]

You forgot "allah hu snackbar".

That's disgusting! You sick fuck!

Below me!

[dbackjon]

That's disgusting! You sick fuck!

Below me!

Andy's a bottom?

[YoUDeeMan]

You calling someone dense here..

After KY tried to make the ridiculous comparison the downing of the Malaysian 777 to the downing of the Iranian airbus, I pointed out how it was apples to oranges. Then you come on here and do the same as KY- try to ridiculously morally equate the downing of the Iranian airliner by the US Navy to the downing of the Malaysian airliner by the Russian backed rebels. When it was pointed out how ridiculous your equation was, you go off on an a rant about a whole bunch of other stuff. We are talking about the downing of civilian airliners here. Nothing else. Try to stay on topic.

The US and Iran were in low level conflict in 87'-88' when the Iranian airbus was shot down in 88'. Malaysia and Russia aren't in any type of conflict.

The US Navy was in the Gulf at the time to protect tankers and merchant shipping. As I've already said, the year before the Iranian Airbus was shot down by the USS Vincennes, the USS Stark had been attacked in the Gulf, hit by 2 Exocet anti ship missiles fired from an Iraqi Mirage. A few months before the Samuel B Roberts hit an Iraqi mine. That morning the Vincennes helo was fired upon by Iranian gunboats. In addition, the Iranian Airbus had taken off from a dual use military and civilian airfield, was at 7K feet flying at the Vincennes (the Vincennes crew incorrectly identified it as an (Iranian) F-14 descending as if on an attack run instead of ascending) while the Vincennes was trying to engage these Iranian gunboats. The Vincennes had a reason to be trigger happy.

HUGE difference in that and a plane flying level at 33k feet that can't be much of a threat. There hasn't been any case of Malaysians firing on any Russian backed Ukrainian rebels. The Vincennes made numerous unsuccessful attempts to contact with Iranian airbus. The Russian backed rebels made no attempt to contact the Malaysian 777. "Hey, here's a high flying plane. Let's shoot at it".

Again, the 2 shootdowns are apples to oranges. Now I expect an unrelated JSO length rant from you that has nothing to do with the downing of either of these airliners...

FtOrReEeSsT

In a war zone, everyone is stressed...and everyone is a potential enemy.

You just made a case where you excuse the mistaken actions of the US forces, while saying the bad guys should be throttled for their error.

Mind you, the US folks had the most up to date, training and equipment, and they somehow confused a large commercial jet with a small fighter jet. That's really hard to do, but hey, it was the stress of war, right?

I mean, in the US example, you coughed up the excuse that the Americans had been attack a year before, had run into a mine, and had their helicopter shot at by the bad guys. Low level conflicts, you stated.

Of course the Ukraine rebels are in a low level conflict, right?

Wait, they are actually in an all out shooting war.

And the rebels had no reason to suspect that Ukraine would be using planes to attack the rebels, right?

Wait, Ukraine had done just that.

Damn.

And, of course, the Ukrainians aren't supplying weapons and troops, used to kill rebel comrades, via supply planes, are they?

Wait, they are doing just that.

So we had a sophisticated US warship, with people who received top-of-the-line advanced training, and we had the most advanced defense systems that could identify and differentiate aircraft, and advanced weapons system to attack properly identified threats, and yet we still shot down and killed a large civilian aircraft full of, well, innocent people. And BDK conveniently excuses that because it happened in a low level war zone...one that really didn't directly involve us.

And yet, BDK wants to hold a bunch of unsophisticated Ukrainian rebels to a higher standard because, according to BDK, they should have been more careful because they were..uh, bad guys that were under less stress.

In the future, BDK wants the rebels to follow some sort of version of the Marquess de Queensberry rules (usually used by the side with the bigger, more sophisticated army because they don't get their skirts dirty), where the rebels will have to wait until planes hit the runway, unloaded all the supplies, and evacuated all of people from around the area, before launching a missile.

Only the US can be excused from responsible for civilian casualties...

[andy7171]

Below me!

Andy's a bottom?

NO!!!!!!

[Ibanez]

Black Boxes.
It can't be that the technology does not exist to capture the information remotely. We get all this same information from the space shuttle remotely. It has to be a cost issue, right?

I thought black boxes were to help find the crash site, or explain WTF happened in case you couldn't find anything but it. IE the other Malaysian jet over the who knows where.

Yup cost, technology as well as the integrity of the data connection and stream. We did something like this when I did some US Navy work out of Pax River. With some private companies, we never quite got it right. I'm not sure what's to gain from recovering the black box( which is actually orange). We are pretty certain that a missile took it down. The black box won't say who did it.

[Ibanez]

The black boxes will not tell who fired the missile...They will show a plane operating normally that had a sudden decompression event and may capture the final words of the flight crew ...nothing more.


The intent of the black boxes is to capture information within the plane....not external to the craft.

If only I kept reading.