Fan of this Pope so far...

[andy7171]

I never said there were not bad popes. I said that many of the allegations asserted against the popes are Protestant canards started around the period of the Reformation, in order to discredit Catholicism. I was specifically referring to much of the "information" contained in FCSPatriots link.

Also, Luther pre-dated the Enlightenment. Luther was actually invited to discuss his position with leaders of the Catholic Inquisition prior to the Diet of Worms, and he attended those sessions. The end result of that process was that Luther was excommunicated. Period. He wasn't tortured by the Catholic Inquisition; he was not executed.

In 1521, the Holy Roman Emperorer convened the Diet of Worms. This proceeding was not under the authority of the Catholic Church. Luther was adjudged guilty of heresy, but was permitted safe passage to and from the Diet, even though the Diet of Worms essentially indicated that Luther could thereafter be killed without punishment by anyone. Again, that judgment, which is frequently and falsely attributed to the Catholic Church, was the act of the Empire.

Church and state were one in the same, Joe. You're a fountain of excuses and half-truths.

Not for England under Henry VII.

[JoltinJoe]

Church and state were one in the same, Joe. You're a fountain of excuses and half-truths.

If you wrote that on a college history exam, you would flunk.

The relationship between Church and state during the Middle Ages was far more complex and often contentious. But you never studied this subject, did you?

[D1B]

Church and state were one in the same, Joe. You're a fountain of excuses and half-truths.

If you wrote that on a catholic college history exam, you would flunk.

The relationship between Church and state during the Middle Ages was far more complex and often contentious. But you never studied this subject, did you?

FIFY

[D1B]

Church and state were one in the same, Joe. You're a fountain of excuses and half-truths.

Not for England under Henry VII.

So what? Reread the thread.

Anyway.....

He also formed an alliance with Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I (1493–1519) and persuaded Pope Innocent VIII to issue a Papal bull of Excommunication against all pretenders to Henry's throne.

Wikipedia

[D1B]

I realize that admitting anything would be akin to surrendering to D1B which of course is not allowed. But certainly there were bad popes. Simply the idea that in a day when enlightenment was occurring throughout Europe on all types of subjects the simple fact that Luther would have been a dead man makes the argument, not to mention simple things like the Inquisition which basically meant you are guilty unless you repent.

Once again, I should stay out of this cause I don't really care, but without one other piece of knowledge if you simply explained the long duration of the church and the immense power that it held for close to 1500 years, I can promise you I could state firmly that there were bad popes without one other piece of evidence offered simply because I understand humans and power and I would be 99.9% certain that I would be right.

I am out. I will let you and D1B go back to having fun.

I never said there were not bad popes. I said that many of the allegations asserted against the popes are Protestant canards started around the period of the Reformation, in order to discredit Catholicism. I was specifically referring to much of the "information" contained in FCSPatriots link.

Also, Luther pre-dated the Enlightenment. Luther was actually invited to discuss his position with leaders of the Catholic Inquisition prior to the Diet of Worms, and he attended those sessions. The end result of that process was that Luther was excommunicated. Period. He wasn't tortured by the Catholic Inquisition; he was not executed.

In 1521, the Holy Roman Emperorer convened the Diet of Worms. This proceeding was not under the authority of the Catholic Church. Luther was adjudged guilty of heresy, but was permitted safe passage to and from the Diet, even though the Diet of Worms essentially indicated that Luther could thereafter be killed without punishment by anyone. Again, that judgment, which is frequently and falsely attributed to the Catholic Church, was the act of the Empire.

And now for the rest of the story:

The Edict of Worms was a decree issued on 25 May 1521 by Emperor Charles V, declaring:

For this reason we forbid anyone from this time forward to dare, either by words or by deeds, to receive, defend, sustain, or favour the said Martin Luther. On the contrary, we want him to be apprehended and punished as a notorious heretic, as he deserves, to be brought personally before us, or to be securely guarded until those who have captured him inform us, whereupon we will order the appropriate manner of proceeding against the said Luther. Those who will help in his capture will be rewarded generously for their good work.
The Papal nuncio at the diet, Girolamo Aleandro, drew up and proposed the denunciations of Luther that were embodied in the Edict of Worms, promulgated on 25 May. The Edict declared Luther to be an obstinate heretic and banned the reading or possession of his writings.

It was the culmination of an ongoing struggle between Martin Luther and the Catholic Church over reform, especially in practice of donations for indulgences. However, there were other deeper issues that revolved around both theological concerns:

On a theological level, Luther had challenged the absolute authority of the Pope over the Church by maintaining that the doctrine of indulgences, as authorized and taught by the Pope, was wrong.[5]
Luther maintained that salvation was by faith alone (sola fide) without reference to good works, alms, penance, or the Church's sacraments. Luther maintained that the sacraments were a "means of grace," meaning that while grace was imparted through the Sacraments, the credit for the action belonged to God and not to the individual.[6]
He had also challenged the authority of the Church by maintaining that all doctrines and dogmata of the Church not found in Scripture should be discarded (sola scriptura).
To protect the authority of the Pope and the Church, as well as to maintain the doctrine of indulgences, ecclesiastical officials convinced Charles V that Luther was a threat and persuaded him to authorize his condemnation by the Holy Roman Empire. Luther escaped arrest and remained in seclusion at Wartburg castle for several years where he continued to write and translate the New Testament into German.

While the Edict was harsh, Charles was so preoccupied with political and military concerns elsewhere that it was never enforced. Eventually Luther was allowed to return to public life and became instrumental in laying the groundwork for the Protestant Reformation.
Despite the agreement that he could return home safely, it was privately understood that Luther would soon be arrested and punished. To protect him from this fate, Prince Frederick seized him on his way home and hid him in Wartburg Castle. It was during his time in Wartburg that Luther began his German translation of the Bible. Martin Luther's powerful testimony of faith at the Diet of Worms in 1521 made an indelible impression upon the mind of George, Margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach, who turned his eyes to the new faith earlier than any other German prince or any other member of the House of Hohenzollern. Moreover, Luther entered into correspondence with him, discussing with him the most important problems of faith. The edict was temporarily suspended at the Diet of Speyer 1526 but then reinstated in 1529.

When Luther eventually reemerged from the Wartburg, the emperor, distracted with other matters, did not press for Luther's arrest. Ultimately, because of rising public support for Luther among the German people and the protection of certain German princes, the Edict of Worms was never enforced in Germany. However, in the Low Countries (comprising modern-day Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands), the Edict was initially enforced against Luther's most active supporters. This could be done because these countries were under the direct reign of the Emperor Charles V himself. In December 1521, Jacob Probst, prior of the Augustinian monastery in Antwerp, was the first Luther-supporting cleric to be prosecuted under the terms of the Worms Edict. In February 1522, Probst was compelled to make public recantation and repudiation of Luther's teachings. Later that year, additional arrests were made among the Augustinians in Antwerp. Two monks, Johannes van Esschen and Hendrik Voes, refused to recant and so on 1 July 1523, they were burned at the stake in Brussels.

Sources:

Oberman, Heiko, Luther: Man Between God and the Devil, New Haven: Yale University Press, 2006, ISBN 0-300-10313-1.
Brecht, Martin. Martin Luther. tr. James L. Schaaf, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985–93, 1:460.
Christian History Corner: 'Hier Stehe Ich!' | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction
Luther's Two Narratives of His Hearings Before the Diet at Worms
Noll, Mark A. (1997, 2000). Turning Points: Decisive Moments in the History of Christianity. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic. p. 160. ISBN 978-0-8010-1159-7.
Graebner, Augustus Lawrence. "Outlines of Doctrinal Theology". Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House. p. 161. Retrieved 15 February 2012.

[JoltinJoe]

And that contradicts my statement that the Diet of Worms was authorized and enforced by the emperor -- how??

[D1B]

And that contradicts my statement that the Diet of Worms was authorized and enforced by the emperor -- how??

Yes. The state was clearly acting on behalf of the church, with the active participation of church leaders.

This ain't court.

[FCS PATRIOTS]

The men who would be Jesus on Earth: http://theophanes.hubpages.com/hub/Pope ... You-Forget" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[D1B]

The men who would be Jesus on Earth: http://theophanes.hubpages.com/hub/Pope ... You-Forget" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hey, Fat Cat, lemme handle this.

[OL FU]

I understand Luther Pre-dated the enlightenment. I was referring more to what was going on in science etc. I was also not referring to Luther being tortured by the inquisition. It was more of a general statement. and believe me, I don't really want to get into the debate with you. you are far to educated on the subject and besides, I am still trying to wash the fundamentalist slime off of me from my childhood

Pussy. SMFH

You bought Liar Joe's bullshit that the state was separate from the Church.

There is a huge difference in agreeing and deciding to stop discussing it. So FU.

I don't have major issues with the catholic church. It certainly has been an institution that has done enormous good and enormous harm throughout history. I particularly have nothing against catholics. The vast majority of my catholic friends are quite willing to acknowledge the failings of the catholic church as well as pointing out its strong points. My guess is that Joe would be the same way except that you would immediately declare victory and he ain't letting that happen.

[JoltinJoe]

And that contradicts my statement that the Diet of Worms was authorized and enforced by the emperor -- how??

Yes. The state was clearly acting on behalf of the church, with the active participation of church leaders.

This ain't court.

You are wrong. In reality, there was a period of time when the Pope controlled vast areas of Europe, but this came to an end with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire in the 10th century (BTW, Voltaire famously observed that the HRE was "neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire). At that point, a power struggled developed between the Church the HRE, with the HRE eventually taking political control. Prior to the 10th century, Catholic trials for heresy never involved torture or execution, but when the HRE took control, it asserted jurisdiction to prosecute the "crime" of heresy. It organized local councils and authorized torture and sometimes execution, which resulted in the Catholic Church trying to take control of such proceedings in order to moderate the excesses. Thus, the famous papal bull which placed strict limitations on when torture could be used -- which anti-Catholics now assert "authorized" torture.

Now the Inquisition and proceedings to root out heresy are not proud moments in the history of the Church, but the Church's involvement in torture and execution is greatly exaggerated by you and others who hate the Church. Moreover, the papal bull was certainly a step in the right direction, although it certainly would have been better if it rejected torture entirely (which, though, would have been difficult to do in the then prevailing political/social climate).

As I said, the relationship between Church and state during the Middle Ages is far more complex, and often contentious, than you admit.

[D1B]

Pussy. SMFH

You bought Liar Joe's bullshit that the state was separate from the Church.

There is a huge difference in agreeing and deciding to stop discussing it. So FU.

I don't have major issues with the catholic church. It certainly has been an institution that has done enormous good and enormous harm throughout history. I particularly have nothing against catholics. The vast majority of my catholic friends are quite willing to acknowledge the failings of the catholic church as well as pointing out its strong points. My guess is that Joe would be the same way except that you would immediately declare victory and he ain't letting that happen.

Go fuck yourself Old Fuck.

[OL FU]

There is a huge difference in agreeing and deciding to stop discussing it. So FU.

I don't have major issues with the catholic church. It certainly has been an institution that has done enormous good and enormous harm throughout history. I particularly have nothing against catholics. The vast majority of my catholic friends are quite willing to acknowledge the failings of the catholic church as well as pointing out its strong points. My guess is that Joe would be the same way except that you would immediately declare victory and he ain't letting that happen.

Go **** yourself Old ****.

Temper Temper

[FCS PATRIOTS]

Of course, even though I am a traditional Anglican (i.e. continuing Anglican, not associated with Archbishop of Canterbury NOR the episcopal church), I'd still take up arms with JoltinJoe against the high priest of atheism, mister man tits himself, D1B.

[JoltinJoe]

Vatican cleared by UN Panel of "torture" allegations of SNAP.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... it-torture

The UN Panel faulted the Church for its handling of sex abuse claims in the past; lauded its present efforts to eradicate sex abuse of minors.

Prediction:

Ander$NAP no doubt will spin the report for the media, focus on the criticisms of the past, and thus imply the report found the Vatican culpable for abuse. Many in the media will fall for it too.

[CID1990]

So have we arrived at an answer yet?

Jesus... SON OF GOD, or no?

[YoUDeeMan]

Supply Side Jesus would be proud.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1080 ... years.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Woo-hoo!

“Two generations ahead, future extrapolation of current wealth growth rates yields almost a billion millionaires, equivalent to 20 per cent of the total adult population,” the bank wrote in its annual Global Wealth Report last year."

Of course by then, Getty's heirs will be saying, "A trillion dollars isn't worth what is used to be."

[YoUDeeMan]

And I thought Hank 8 opposed the Catholic church because he wanted to screw the teenage Jane Seymour.

Henry VIII broke with the Catholic Church over his second marriage to Ann Boleyn. Jane Seymour was his third wife.

He divorced Catherine of Aragon to marry Ann Boleyn, and sought an annulment, which was denied to him. So he broke from the Catholic Church and named himself head of the Church of England.

When he tired of screwing Ann Boleyn, though, and wanted to screw young Jane Seymour instead, he showed he learned his lesson from his inability to secure an annulment of his first marriage.

He had Ann Boleyn beheaded, so this time he didn't need an annulment.

His marriage to Jane Seymour was short-lived, as she died the year following the marriage after experiencing complications after giving birth to a boy who would become Edward VI.

What a hero.

Anybody that got to screw a young Jane Seymour is a hero in my book.

http://www.lazygirls.info/Jane_Seymour/ ... ur_D7QKhck" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HOT!

[YoUDeeMan]

Now the Inquisition and proceedings to root out heresy are not proud moments in the history of the Church, but the Church's involvement in torture and execution is greatly exaggerated by you and others who hate the Church. Moreover, the papal bull was certainly a step in the right direction, although it certainly would have been better if it rejected torture entirely (which, though, would have been difficult to do in the then prevailing political/social climate).

You have to be kidding.

The Church had GOD on its side. Were the Church's leaders not believers? Did they think that God would abandon them all and let Christianity die at the hands of the bad political leaders?

How in Hell can, "would have been difficult" be used as an excuse?

[JoltinJoe]

Now the Inquisition and proceedings to root out heresy are not proud moments in the history of the Church, but the Church's involvement in torture and execution is greatly exaggerated by you and others who hate the Church. Moreover, the papal bull was certainly a step in the right direction, although it certainly would have been better if it rejected torture entirely (which, though, would have been difficult to do in the then prevailing political/social climate).

You have to be kidding.

The Church had GOD on its side. Were the Church's leaders not believers? Did they think that God would abandon them all and let Christianity die at the hands of the bad political leaders?

How in Hell can, "would have been difficult" be used as an excuse?

In context, the point of the papal bull was to curb abuses of secular proceedings and to attempt to take control over adjudicating appropriate punishment, in a social/political climate which accepted torture routinely as a means of punishment. So by allowing for torture in "extreme" cases, the Church stood a better chance of obtaining these goals.

[Skjellyfetti]

“When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
Leviticus 19:33-34

Pope Francis says migrants around the world are subjected to “racist and xenophobic attitudes” and he wants the tens of thousands of Central American children crossing the border into the United States to be “welcomed and protected.”

In a letter Monday to a Vatican conference in Mexico City on human migration and development, the pontiff said that immigration has become a hallmark of modern society. “Many people forced to emigrate suffer, and often, die tragically,” Francis said, according to a Vatican Radio translation. “Many of their rights are violated. They are obliged to separate from their families and, unfortunately, continue to be the subject of racist and xenophobic attitudes.” The pope drew special attention to the crisis on the U.S. border. He said that not only must the children be welcomed but the world must also promote development in their home countries.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigr ... ed-n156106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dbackjon]

“When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
Leviticus 19:33-34

Pope Francis says migrants around the world are subjected to “racist and xenophobic attitudes” and he wants the tens of thousands of Central American children crossing the border into the United States to be “welcomed and protected.”

In a letter Monday to a Vatican conference in Mexico City on human migration and development, the pontiff said that immigration has become a hallmark of modern society. “Many people forced to emigrate suffer, and often, die tragically,” Francis said, according to a Vatican Radio translation. “Many of their rights are violated. They are obliged to separate from their families and, unfortunately, continue to be the subject of racist and xenophobic attitudes.” The pope drew special attention to the crisis on the U.S. border. He said that not only must the children be welcomed but the world must also promote development in their home countries.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigr ... ed-n156106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry, Christians only follow the anti-gay parts of Leviticus

[andy7171]

“When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
Leviticus 19:33-34



http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigr ... ed-n156106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First of all, it's kind of ridiculous to argue with one line of the book and be completely against another line. Also, pretty sure JC wiped the old Covanent out. I'm cool with the New one just fine.

As this pertains on an individual basis, I agree, you should be nice and help strangers in your land. I see nothing speaking about Nations and their laws pertaining to 10s of thousands of them over running your "border".

And what is this bullshit about America stealing land from Mexico? We won that shit in a war.


Sorry, Christians only follow the anti-gay parts of Leviticus

[Ivytalk]

So, did Pope Francis go apeshit after Germany beat Argentina?

[OL FU]

So, did Pope Francis go apeshit after Germany beat Argentina?

Yeah I assume he was for the "almost Nazis" against the "Nazis"