Jesus had a wife

[D1B]

based entirely on the FACT that over 90% of those who identify with Christianity haven't bothered to even read the Bible

You keep coming back to this-

I am curious where you get it from- not disputing it - I've just never heard it except from you, and you would think there would be a poll or something

but that would mean that "Christians" would have to admit not having read it

Hell, I've read the whole thing (well actually I skipped a few Psalms... they got tedious)- and I know that plays into what you are saying, but where do you get that 90% of claimed Christians haven't read the bible? It really isn't THAT long

Go quiz a christian. 9 or more out of 10 will not know shit.

[Chizzang]

based entirely on the FACT that over 90% of those who identify with Christianity haven't bothered to even read the Bible

You keep coming back to this-

I am curious where you get it from- not disputing it - I've just never heard it except from you, and you would think there would be a poll or something

but that would mean that "Christians" would have to admit not having read it

Hell, I've read the whole thing (well actually I skipped a few Psalms... they got tedious)- and I know that plays into what you are saying, but where do you get that 90% of claimed Christians haven't read the bible? It really isn't THAT long

Also note:
Nobody scores lower on Biblical studies tests than American Christians...
It's hard to come to terms with (for the Fundamentalists in the crowd) but Americans don't know sh!t about the Bible - it's just that simple - and yet, to some degree or another, they do "believe" in the Christian God and think Jesus is pretty cool

(Can I string you along for a while?)

[Chizzang]

Do your research, Gannon. You would never be this careless with your work projects or family like you are with your faith.

But I think that exact point ^ is the most critical point of this entire thread...
You can take away the whole "he was the son of God" thing and a lot of Christians would just shrug and say - so what, why does that matter - and tell you that it never really mattered to them and that what they love about Christianity is something entirely different than what YOU are focused on

You could even tell them that what they believe makes them technically NOT a Christian and they would laugh and say "of course I'm a Christian"

THIS is the fascinating and cool part about American Christians (frankly I love it)



They aren't willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater (pardon the joke)

[D1B]

You keep coming back to this-

I am curious where you get it from- not disputing it - I've just never heard it except from you, and you would think there would be a poll or something

but that would mean that "Christians" would have to admit not having read it

Hell, I've read the whole thing (well actually I skipped a few Psalms... they got tedious)- and I know that plays into what you are saying, but where do you get that 90% of claimed Christians haven't read the bible? It really isn't THAT long

Also note:
Nobody scores lower on Biblical studies tests than American Christians...
It's hard to come to terms with (for the Fundamentalists in the crowd) but Americans don't know sh!t about the Bible - it's just that simple - and yet, to some degree or another, they do "believe" in the Christian God and think Jesus is pretty cool

(Can I string you along for a while?)

According to a Pew Research Study, Atheists score higher on religious knowledge. Catholics are abysmal.

[D1B]

CID,

Still curious, what's your basis for a historical Jesus?

[houndawg]

First of all, these "testimonies" have been recorded and re-recorded ad infinitum and every scribe that ever recorded them added his own bias.

Second, where do you get off calling anybody, let alone Carl Sagan, ridiculous? You're the one peddling some preposterous nonsense about virgins having babies and dead people climbing out of their tomb and flying away up into the sky. And please, JJ, tell us more about these so-called "dimensions of reality" that we can't perceive and how they have anything to do with the dead bodies flying away.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you believe in a god and his name is Carl Sagan. Sorry to offend you.

Carl Sagan's line was ridiculous -- a classic example of a scientist, thinking because he had exceptional knowledge of science, that he could speak authoratatively on matters of theology, specifically the divinity of Christ. I say the same thing about Stephen Hawking. Modern scientists think no other discipline matters, and that all are dependent on science -- they have intellectual hubris, when in truth they are narrow, myopic thinkers. It was amusing to see a Jesuit priest -- a philosopher and quantum scientist -- run circles around Hawking's co-author on that Larry King special. Hawking must have moritified as Mlodinow constantly conceded the priest's points.

As for dimensions that we don't perceive, you might want to study up on modern quantum physics/mechanics. A lot has changed since you went to college. For example, when I was in college, it was taken as a given that gravity was not subject to laws of quantum mechanics. But just recently, a theory was proposed regarding the Big Bang which includes a theory that gravity is, in fact, siubject to quantum mechanics. That would put a huge hole in the theory that Hawking/Mlodinow proposed only a few years ago in "The Grand Design."

Joltin Joe: Scientists not qualified to speak on the subject of Fairy tales.

[houndawg]

It is interesting to note that of the 12 original disciples of Jesus, 10 died martyr's deaths, the 1 that betrayed Him committed suicide, and the last 1 endured a long imprisonment for their beliefs.

It occurs to me that facing death, imprisonment or shame that led to suicide as alternatives, that at least maybe 1 or maybe even more would have recanted their stories had they made them up.

All could have returned quietly to their homes and gone back to their prior life, which is what you think logically would have happened. Instead, they willingly chose to be persecuted, tortured, and murdered. They obviously were witnesses to something very powerful. As you cite, not one recanted his faith, when that is all they had to do to avoid execution. Put the foolhardies say they willingly died for what they knew was a lie.

Incidentally, the one Apostol you note who died a natural death, was actually sentenced to death and that sentence was carried out in the Roman Coliseum during the reign Domitian. In front of a large crowd, John was boiled alive in oil, according to the church historianTertullian, but emerged uninjured, which set off a massive conversion to Catholicism in Rome at that time.

John is also understood to be the author of the Gospel of John, which means that one of the Gospels was in fact written by an eyewitness.

[houndawg]

So serious Joe...
Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable
Even Christopher Columbus reported seeing Mermaids (two separate reports) in his captains log

My point is if Christopher Columbus had reported seeing Jesus - YOU - would be referencing it as documented fact. What Christianity is willing to accept in favor and deny in contrast is stunningly embarrassing from the long view

Explain this:



Science has not been able to debunk it. In fact, science continually affirms that there are remarkable things about this cloth.

Debunk what?

[JoltinJoe]

houndawg.

The "fairy tale" line is all you got. Weak stuff.



Just keep telling yourself that you're smart.

Seriously, how come all atheists are class cabooses who now think they're smarter than everyone? Geez, dawg, you went to Southern Illinois U? Had one on my facebook page. One of the dumbest kids in the high school class lecturing me on "fairy tales" and saying he belonged to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[houndawg]

houndawg.

The "fairy tale" line is all you got. Weak stuff.



Just keep telling yourself that you're smart.

Seriously, how come all atheists are class cabooses who now think they're smarter than everyone? Geez, dawg, you went to Southern Illinois U? Had one on my facebook page. One of the dumbest kids in the high school class lecturing me on "fairy tales" and saying he belonged to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Debunk what, Joe?

[JoltinJoe]

houndawg.

The "fairy tale" line is all you got. Weak stuff.



Just keep telling yourself that you're smart.

Seriously, how come all atheists are class cabooses who now think they're smarter than everyone? Geez, dawg, you went to Southern Illinois U? Had one on my facebook page. One of the dumbest kids in the high school class lecturing me on "fairy tales" and saying he belonged to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Debunk what, Joe?

No one expects you to understand.

[D1B]

Fordham's USN&World Report ranking just plummeted several spots.

Joe, you're an embarrassment to your school and your religion.

[D1B]

Fordham

[D1B]

houndawg.

The "fairy tale" line is all you got. Weak stuff.



Just keep telling yourself that you're smart.

Seriously, how come all atheists are class cabooses who now think they're smarter than everyone? Geez, dawg, you went to Southern Illinois U? Had one on my facebook page. One of the dumbest kids in the high school class lecturing me on "fairy tales" and saying he belonged to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I went to Fordham's and dead mutha fuckahs can fly, negro!

[JoltinJoe]

Fordham

http://www.fordham.edu/Campus_Resources ... s_2601.asp

[JoltinJoe]

Fordham's USN&World Report ranking just plummeted several spots.

Joe, you're an embarrassment to your school and your religion.

When we get as low as UNI, give me a call.

Just checked. Still listed among Barron's "Most Highly Selective" universities.

[kalm]

Answer the question. I'm prepared to be wrong....unlike you I'm smart enough to admit these type of things...

Your inability to grasp this point is stupefying!

Definition #3, involving a small group with beliefs to be deemed detrimental or dangerous, is pejorative on its face. This is what D1B intends to mean when he uses the word "cult."

Your definition #1 is purely descriptive and includes nothing pejorative at all.

Why can't you grasp this concept? D1B is not intending to use Definition #1. He's trying to use Definition #3 -- ignoring the needs for reference to a small and "dangerous" group when using that term. Thus, he is using the term incorrectly.

By the way, Definition #3 has probably become the most common use of the term today, given that it has become a favorite of the cliche-ridden, like D1B.

I think he's using it EXACTLY how he intended and I think you know EXACTLY what he meant.

But let's look at the word "gay".

This thread is becoming "gay" is a pejorative description.

Dbackjohn is my "gay" friend is not.

This thread is becoming "gay" after a Dback post kills two birds with one stone.

Get it?

[JoltinJoe]

Your inability to grasp this point is stupefying!

Definition #3, involving a small group with beliefs to be deemed detrimental or dangerous, is pejorative on its face. This is what D1B intends to mean when he uses the word "cult."

Your definition #1 is purely descriptive and includes nothing pejorative at all.

Why can't you grasp this concept? D1B is not intending to use Definition #1. He's trying to use Definition #3 -- ignoring the needs for reference to a small and "dangerous" group when using that term. Thus, he is using the term incorrectly.

By the way, Definition #3 has probably become the most common use of the term today, given that it has become a favorite of the cliche-ridden, like D1B.

I think he's using it EXACTLY how he intended and I think you know EXACTLY what he meant.

But let's look at the word "gay".

This thread is becoming "gay" is a pejorative description.

Dbackjohn is my "gay" friend is not.

This thread is becoming "gay" after a Dback post kills two birds with one stone.

Get it?

[kalm]

Fordham's USN&World Report ranking just plummeted several spots.

Joe, you're an embarrassment to your school and your religion.

When we get as low as UNI, give me a call.

Just checked. Still listed among Barron's "Most Highly Selective" universities.

After this thread, anyone with half a brain would hire a UNI grad WAY before a Fordham grad.

[D1B]

Fordham's USN&World Report ranking just plummeted several spots.

Joe, you're an embarrassment to your school and your religion.

When we get as low as UNI, give me a call.

Just checked. Still listed among Barron's "Most Highly Selective" universities.

Highly selecting catholic nut bags.

Fordham, 30 grand a year to learn about Jesus myths and defend atrocities.

[kalm]

I think he's using it EXACTLY how he intended and I think you know EXACTLY what he meant.

But let's look at the word "gay".

This thread is becoming "gay" is a pejorative description.

Dbackjohn is my "gay" friend is not.

This thread is becoming "gay" after a Dback post kills two birds with one stone.

Get it?

Damn. I was just trying to help you along. Sadly…this response is not surprising.

[D1B]

Li'l ole D1B annihilating a Fordum Law grad. Joe. I'll pm you the address to send my trophy.

[D1B]

God bless D1B. Cs.com Sumo Cum Laude

[youtube]http://youtu.be/Kw-_Ew5bVxs[/youtube]

[D1B]

[CID1990]

CID,

Still curious, what's your basis for a historical Jesus?

There are a number of things that point to a man having existed roughly 2000 years ago in what is now Israel who developed a significant messianic following- there is nothing concrete, but his proximity and relation to several documented characters- such as Pontius Pilate- suggests to
me that there WAS a man. There were just too many diverse people who were willing to give an account of him. Many of those were certainly charlatans- but there was something "profitable" about this Jesus- and that would have been much easier to pull off if he actually was a real dude.

I am also open to the possibility that "Jesus" might have been more than one person- there were many prophets and "messiahs" in those days. John the Baptist was considered by some to be one of them- that things that may have been said by someone else was attributed to Jesus by a follower. Sort of the George Washington slept here effect.

But all that said, I think it is more likely than not that the man did exist, that he was one of a herd of prophets and "holy" men of that time- and that his own charisma combined with happenstance elevated him and his memory to the religion we saw emerging in Rome just a few hundred years later.

I like to think he did in fact say some of the things attributed to him- but if he didn't... so what? SOMEBODY (probably Paul) wrote the 1st epistle to the church in Corinth Greece- and that somebody attributed a message of love to a Jesus. Personally, I don't think this man was the son of any god because I dont have the belief that there is a god (at least nit the kind that turns his progeny into a human and teleports the poor bastard into the womb of a smelly Jordanian capenters wife). But I think the IDEA- the idea behind what was attributed to Jesus was, at the time, revolutionary. It actually signified a desire to BREAK with the traditional functions of religions as they were known at the time. I think that "Jesus"- whatever he or they were- was the first character of the Enlightenment- the first real humanist. Do as Clitzang suggests and throw out the whole son of god thing and all the miracles- Jesus might be nothing more than an idea. But regardless of my lack of faith I have always regarded this idea to be a noble one.

I would agree with you that whatever or whoever Jesus was- there is no way that the dogma we see today- or even the bible itself- can be a fully accurate depiction of the man- it has been filtered and modified for 2000 years