Nihilism and Atheism... (Not the same thing)

[kalm]

Really? That sounds so foreign to me. You feel like the "universe revolves around" you? I don't think that is a common feeling in people at all. I think most people feel that they are often subject to forces they cannot control, not the other way around.

And if you think your feelings about God which you intuit are "delusions," shouldn't you reject the concept of God altogether?

I wasn't really a person of faith until I reached college. During the course of one philosophy class, I began to grasp that I had been given gifts of life, of friends, of family ... and that I should be grateful to that which gave me those things. And then I began to realize that another gift I could have would be to be in a relationship with that which gave me those things. Faith flows from an appreciation of the gift of being. You (especially you) have been given so much by something. So be grateful to that something -- which is a normal human reaction to having received a gift -- and, if you do that, it is nearly inescapable that you'd believe there is a personal God.

Firstly Joe - Humans are insanely egocentric and self absorbed (I ain't much but I'm all I think about) is the common condition of Humanity - we see the world from OUR ONE POINT perspective... Very few humans and typically only after years of examination discover deeper feelings. The world is like a stage performance (a play) acted out in front of each of us - where we are the main character always and this reality limits our view of the bigger picture - it makes us think "we are significant" (you could argue perhaps by design)

THAT, is the human condition and I think "Sonder" captures that perfectly (see youtube clip below)

And I do consider my vast collection of blessings so hugely lopsided in my favor
and as I've said I think God is the most exciting idea placed in front of Humanity - because such a huge percentage of us feel the presence of god in our experience - I'm no exception there. I do not deny that feeling like so many Atheists do, in fact I like the feeling, but I'm also aware that it might be just a feeling and ultimately meaningless.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0xIXghxyUk[/youtube]

Pretty much nailed my feelings on the matter.

Although for some reason when I think of egocentrism, this video comes to mind:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7AUpGXLDdk[/youtube]



And you've posted the Sonder bit before which I truly enjoy. Forgive me if I've also posted the following, but since we're talking about gratitude in this discussion I think it's great example of transcending organized religion while still leaving room for it's role…

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXDMoiEkyuQ[/youtube]

[houndawg]

No, I've never made that argument.

I have always said an atheist can have sound morals. What I have said is that there is nothing in the atheist's belief system which objectively compels them to have sound morals.

All nihilists are atheists, but not all atheists are nihilists.

A sense of morals is not a religious construct, either

In fact I think it could be argued that the development of the idea of unwritten rules governing how we treat each other predates religion- or perhaps even gave rise to organized religion

it is easier to get others to conform to your own morality if the instruction came down from god instead of just you

I fvcking know that Moses had the tablets carved and stashed them at the bottom of the mountain and made up some bullshit story about it..

[Chizzang]

A sense of morals is not a religious construct, either

In fact I think it could be argued that the development of the idea of unwritten rules governing how we treat each other predates religion- or perhaps even gave rise to organized religion

it is easier to get others to conform to your own morality if the instruction came down from god instead of just you

I fvcking know that Moses had the tablets carved and stashed them at the bottom of the mountain and made up some bullshit story about it..

Having Moses be ones guide on Morality is like having Dirty harry be your guide on Gun Violence

[Chizzang]

And you've posted the Sonder bit before which I truly enjoy. Forgive me if I've also posted the following, but since we're talking about gratitude in this discussion I think it's great example of transcending organized religion while still leaving room for it's role…

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXDMoiEkyuQ[/youtube]

You keep posting video like this and I won't be the only guy on here being called HIPPIE...

[Grizalltheway]

A sense of morals is not a religious construct, either

In fact I think it could be argued that the development of the idea of unwritten rules governing how we treat each other predates religion- or perhaps even gave rise to organized religion

it is easier to get others to conform to your own morality if the instruction came down from god instead of just you

I fvcking know that Moses had the tablets carved and stashed them at the bottom of the mountain and made up some bullshit story about it..

Sounds a lot like Joseph Smith.

[JoltinJoe]

Really? That sounds so foreign to me. You feel like the "universe revolves around" you? I don't think that is a common feeling in people at all. I think most people feel that they are often subject to forces they cannot control, not the other way around.

And if you think your feelings about God which you intuit are "delusions," shouldn't you reject the concept of God altogether?

I wasn't really a person of faith until I reached college. During the course of one philosophy class, I began to grasp that I had been given gifts of life, of friends, of family ... and that I should be grateful to that which gave me those things. And then I began to realize that another gift I could have would be to be in a relationship with that which gave me those things. Faith flows from an appreciation of the gift of being. You (especially you) have been given so much by something. So be grateful to that something -- which is a normal human reaction to having received a gift -- and, if you do that, it is nearly inescapable that you'd believe there is a personal God.

Firstly Joe - Humans are insanely egocentric and self absorbed (I ain't much but I'm all I think about) is the common condition of Humanity - we see the world from OUR ONE POINT perspective... Very few humans and typically only after years of examination discover deeper feelings. The world is like a stage performance (a play) acted out in front of each of us - where we are the main character always and this reality limits our view of the bigger picture - it makes us think "we are significant" (you could argue perhaps by design)

THAT, is the human condition and I think "Sonder" captures that perfectly (see youtube clip below)

And I do consider my vast collection of blessings so hugely lopsided in my favor
and as I've said I think God is the most exciting idea placed in front of Humanity - because such a huge percentage of us feel the presence of god in our experience - I'm no exception there. I do not deny that feeling like so many Atheists do, in fact I like the feeling, but I'm also aware that it might be just a feeling and ultimately meaningless.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0xIXghxyUk[/youtube]

I see where you're coming from BUT -- isn't this world view just a choice? Couldn't you accept a world view in which others -- even those you have never encountered -- are as "central" as you? And, if you can accept that, couldn't you accept that value and meaning in life derives from service and sacrifice for the benefit of those who are as central as you? In fact, if others are as central as you, shouldn't you serve others? And right there is the message of Christianity: a crucified Christ who gives his life in sacrifice for others is the model (fortunately, the Christian call to service is seldom so extreme. )

In my estimation, lack of faith is as much a CHOICE as faith is. Of course, no one of doubt "leaps" to faith instantaneously. Those who eventually choose faith do so because they find value and meaning in a life of service. Self-absorbed people are seldom happy; selfless people are.

[Chizzang]

I see where you're coming from BUT -- isn't this world view just a choice? Couldn't you accept a world view in which others -- even those you have never encountered -- are as "central" as you? And, if you can accept that, couldn't you accept that value and meaning in life derives from service and sacrifice for the benefit of those who are as central as you? In fact, if others are as central as you, shouldn't you serve others? And right there is the message of Christianity: a crucified Christ who gives his life in sacrifice for others is the model (fortunately, the Christian call to service is seldom so extreme. )

In my estimation, lack of faith is as much a CHOICE as faith is. Of course, no one of doubt "leaps" to faith instantaneously. Those who eventually choose faith do so because they find value and meaning in a life of service. Self-absorbed people are seldom happy; selfless people are.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything ^ here...
But Self absorbed is our default - it is a huge part of what being Human is (good or bad or whatever)

Joe there are even those (imagine this) who "help others" as a form of bolstering their own ego and creating an environment more self-focused, disguised as service... I would argue ANY person who preaches the gospel on Television (no matter how sweet and kind, Joel Osteen included) is a thinly disguised self absorbed narcissist... Look everybody - at how spiritual I am



But I do agree
Service work is a huge part of sanity and connectedness

[houndawg]

Firstly Joe - Humans are insanely egocentric and self absorbed (I ain't much but I'm all I think about) is the common condition of Humanity - we see the world from OUR ONE POINT perspective... Very few humans and typically only after years of examination discover deeper feelings. The world is like a stage performance (a play) acted out in front of each of us - where we are the main character always and this reality limits our view of the bigger picture - it makes us think "we are significant" (you could argue perhaps by design)

THAT, is the human condition and I think "Sonder" captures that perfectly (see youtube clip below)

And I do consider my vast collection of blessings so hugely lopsided in my favor
and as I've said I think God is the most exciting idea placed in front of Humanity - because such a huge percentage of us feel the presence of god in our experience - I'm no exception there. I do not deny that feeling like so many Atheists do, in fact I like the feeling, but I'm also aware that it might be just a feeling and ultimately meaningless.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0xIXghxyUk[/youtube]

I see where you're coming from BUT -- isn't this world view just a choice? Couldn't you accept a world view in which others -- even those you have never encountered -- are as "central" as you? And, if you can accept that, couldn't you accept that value and meaning in life derives from service and sacrifice for the benefit of those who are as central as you? In fact, if others are as central as you, shouldn't you serve others? And right there is the message of Christianity: a crucified Christ who gives his life in sacrifice for others is the model (fortunately, the Christian call to service is seldom so extreme. )

In my estimation, lack of faith is as much a CHOICE as faith is. Of course, no one of doubt "leaps" to faith instantaneously. Those who eventually choose faith do so because they find value and meaning in a life of service. Self-absorbed people are seldom happy; selfless people are.

But often it is a choice made based on the evidence..

[kalm]

I see where you're coming from BUT -- isn't this world view just a choice? Couldn't you accept a world view in which others -- even those you have never encountered -- are as "central" as you? And, if you can accept that, couldn't you accept that value and meaning in life derives from service and sacrifice for the benefit of those who are as central as you? In fact, if others are as central as you, shouldn't you serve others? And right there is the message of Christianity: a crucified Christ who gives his life in sacrifice for others is the model (fortunately, the Christian call to service is seldom so extreme. )

In my estimation, lack of faith is as much a CHOICE as faith is. Of course, no one of doubt "leaps" to faith instantaneously. Those who eventually choose faith do so because they find value and meaning in a life of service. Self-absorbed people are seldom happy; selfless people are.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything ^ here...
But Self absorbed is our default - it is a huge part of what being Human is (good or bad or whatever)

Joe there are even those (imagine this) who "help others" as a form of bolstering their own ego and creating an environment more self-focused, disguised as service... I would argue ANY person who preaches the gospel on Television (no matter how sweet and kind, Joel Osteen included) is a thinly disguised self absorbed narcissist... Look everybody - at how spiritual I am



But I do agree
Service work is a huge part of sanity and connectedness

Yeah, being told your a nice guy and generous is due to ego and affirmation is a real kick in the nut.

[JohnStOnge]

Chiz, if the atheist premise is correct, life is indeed meaningless.

Nobody is confused. The two are closely related.

[Vidav]

Fuck, JSO, you seriously are an idiot. Just because there is no afterlife doesn't make life meaningless. What you do during your time here impacts other people. It has meaning because of the aftereffects. Fuck, man.

[houndawg]

Chiz, if the atheist premise is correct, life is indeed meaningless.

Nobody is confused. The two are closely related.

Please state this Atheist Premise of which you speak. Already asked you twice.

[CID1990]

Chiz, if the atheist premise is correct, life is indeed meaningless.

Nobody is confused. The two are closely related.

Chiz accused you of being a closet fundie and I disagreed with him.

Now I think I was wrong

Yours is the classic "only God imparts meaning" argument

I cant believe you arent seeing the fallacy in your argument

[houndawg]

Chiz, if the atheist premise is correct, life is indeed meaningless.

Nobody is confused. The two are closely related.

Chiz accused you of being a closet fundie and I disagreed with him.

Now I think I was wrong

Yours is the classic "only God imparts meaning" argument

I cant believe you arent seeing the fallacy in your argument

He seems to spend a great deal of time trying to put a veneer of science and logic on his fundamentalist beliefs. Kind of sad that he has these beliefs but is embarrassed by them.

[JoltinJoe]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything ^ here...
But Self absorbed is our default - it is a huge part of what being Human is (good or bad or whatever)

Joe there are even those (imagine this) who "help others" as a form of bolstering their own ego and creating an environment more self-focused, disguised as service... I would argue ANY person who preaches the gospel on Television (no matter how sweet and kind, Joel Osteen included) is a thinly disguised self absorbed narcissist... Look everybody - at how spiritual I am



But I do agree
Service work is a huge part of sanity and connectedness

Yeah, being told your a nice guy and generous is due to ego and affirmation is a real kick in the nut.

It's hard to judge a person's intentions.

Take Mother Teresa, for example. She labored in obscurity for 30 years running a hospice for those dying on the streets of Calcutta. In the late 1970s, some filmmaker goes to Calcutta to film a documentary about the city's poverty-stricken; discovers Mother Teresa and speaks about her in the film; and before you know it, she's a world-wide cause being showered with gifts from the well-to-do. Because she was largely a simple nun living outside the first world, she had no idea what would follow from speaking to the filmmaker.

Now many enemies of the Catholic Church accuse her of being a publicity-hound.

[D1B]

Yeah, being told your a nice guy and generous is due to ego and affirmation is a real kick in the nut.

It's hard to judge a person's intentions.

Take Mother Teresa, for example. She labored in obscurity for 30 years running a hospice for those dying on the streets of Calcutta. In the late 1970s, some filmmaker goes to Calcutta to film a documentary about the city's poverty-stricken; discovers Mother Teresa and speaks about her in the film; and before you know it, she's a world-wide cause being showered with gifts from the well-to-do. Because she was largely a simple nun living outside the first world, she had no idea what would follow from speaking to the filmmaker.

Now many enemies of the Catholic Church accuse her of being a publicity-hound.

It's becoming very difficult for the Catholic Church to lie and spin yarns In this age if easy access to information.

Mother Teresa was a dumb, mentally Ill sadist repackaged by the Church PR department as a saint in a futile attempt to breath life into a church rapidly becoming irrelevant.

We exposed the massive child sexual abuse scandal in the church as we did that cunt, Teresa.

[SeattleGriz]

It's hard to judge a person's intentions.

Take Mother Teresa, for example. She labored in obscurity for 30 years running a hospice for those dying on the streets of Calcutta. In the late 1970s, some filmmaker goes to Calcutta to film a documentary about the city's poverty-stricken; discovers Mother Teresa and speaks about her in the film; and before you know it, she's a world-wide cause being showered with gifts from the well-to-do. Because she was largely a simple nun living outside the first world, she had no idea what would follow from speaking to the filmmaker.

Now many enemies of the Catholic Church accuse her of being a publicity-hound.

It's becoming very difficult for the Catholic Church to lie and spin yarns In this age if easy access to information.

Mother Teresa was a dumb, mentally Ill sadist repackaged by the Church PR department as a saint in a futile attempt to breath life into a church rapidly becoming irrelevant.

We exposed the massive child sexual abuse scandal in the church as we did that cunt, Teresa.

And you were exposed of using a so called study in which the authors did absolutely no physical research and simply plagiarized from someone else's poorly researched book on Mother Teresa.

[D1B]

It's becoming very difficult for the Catholic Church to lie and spin yarns In this age if easy access to information.

Mother Teresa was a dumb, mentally Ill sadist repackaged by the Church PR department as a saint in a futile attempt to breath life into a church rapidly becoming irrelevant.

We exposed the massive child sexual abuse scandal in the church as we did that cunt, Teresa.

And you were exposed of using a so called study in which the authors did absolutely no physical research and simply plagiarized from someone else's poorly researched book on Mother Teresa.

Speaking of mentally ill....and dumb...

[JoltinJoe]

Yeah, being told yor the Catholic Church to lie and spin yarns In this age if easy access to information.

Anti-Catholic bigots and enemies of the Catholic Church -- on a 2,000-year losing streak.

More Catholics in the world than in any time in history. Winning.

[Chizzang]

Yeah, being told your a nice guy and generous is due to ego and affirmation is a real kick in the nut.

It's hard to judge a person's intentions.

Take Mother Teresa, for example. She labored in obscurity for 30 years running a hospice for those dying on the streets of Calcutta. In the late 1970s, some filmmaker goes to Calcutta to film a documentary about the city's poverty-stricken; discovers Mother Teresa and speaks about her in the film; and before you know it, she's a world-wide cause being showered with gifts from the well-to-do. Because she was largely a simple nun living outside the first world, she had no idea what would follow from speaking to the filmmaker.

Now many enemies of the Catholic Church accuse her of being a publicity-hound.

I totally agree ^ with this Joe...
we can never truly know what lies in the hearts of men (or Nuns in Calcutta)

I cross the line between good judgement and dispassionate empathy many times while also regularly rushing to far-too-quick of a dissatisfactory ruling against others...

I'm a work in progress

[∞∞∞]

Nothing matters because each of our existences, and even humanity as a whole, will be forgotten with time.

Is that what you want to hear John?

[kalm]

It's hard to judge a person's intentions.

Take Mother Teresa, for example. She labored in obscurity for 30 years running a hospice for those dying on the streets of Calcutta. In the late 1970s, some filmmaker goes to Calcutta to film a documentary about the city's poverty-stricken; discovers Mother Teresa and speaks about her in the film; and before you know it, she's a world-wide cause being showered with gifts from the well-to-do. Because she was largely a simple nun living outside the first world, she had no idea what would follow from speaking to the filmmaker.

Now many enemies of the Catholic Church accuse her of being a publicity-hound.

I totally agree ^ with this Joe...
we can never truly know what lies in the hearts of men (or Nuns in Calcutta)

I cross the line between good judgement and dispassionate empathy many times while also regularly rushing to far-too-quick of a dissatisfactory ruling against others...

I'm a work in progress

Typical nuanced wishy washy lib. The world is black and white. You're going to hell.

[D1B]

Yeah, being told yor the Catholic Church to lie and spin yarns In this age if easy access to information.

Anti-Catholic bigots and enemies of the Catholic Church -- on a 2,000-year losing streak.

More Catholics in the world than in any time in history. Winning.

Taking credit for population explosions in Latin America and the third world.

Bankrupt dioceses, schools and churches closing, millions leaving the church and a majority of catholics only being catholic on Christmas and a few Sundays a year.

Catholic hierarchy totally discredited and rightfully vilified.

Vatican is a world wide joke.

No one wants to be a priest anymore.

Church is now known more for raping children than doing good works.

New scandals erupting daily all over the world.

Yeah, you won.

[JoltinJoe]

Anti-Catholic bigots and enemies of the Catholic Church -- on a 2,000-year losing streak.

More Catholics in the world than in any time in history. Winning.

Taking credit for population explosions in Latin America and the third world.

Bankrupt dioceses, schools and churches closing, millions leaving the church and a majority of catholics only being catholic on Christmas and a few Sundays a year.

Catholic hierarchy totally discredited and rightfully vilified.

Vatican is a world wide joke.

No one wants to be a priest anymore.

Church is now known more for raping children than doing good works.

New scandals erupting daily all over the world.

Yeah, you won.

ALL BULLSHIT.



Grab some pine, loser.

[D1B]

Yeah, being told yor the Catholic Church to lie and spin yarns In this age if easy access to information.

Anti-Catholic bigots and enemies of the Catholic Church -- on a 2,000-year losing streak.

More Catholics in the world than in any time in history. Winning.

NETHERLANDS
Fox News

Published April 12, 2014

Associated Press

THE HAGUE, Netherlands – A former Dutch Catholic bishop, who died last year, was guilty of sexual abuse decades ago when he was a chaplain and teacher in the southern Netherlands, his diocese has acknowledged, in the latest abuse scandal to hit the church.

An organization of victims of church abuse, Mea Culpa, welcomed the statement Saturday as vindicating a fight for justice by victims, both boys at the time of the abuse.

The Diocese of Roermond said in a statement issued late Friday that a church complaints commission had ruled that the late Bishop Jo Gijsen was found to have committed the abuse.

The current Roermond bishop, Frans Wiertz, said in a written statement he "accepted the advice of the complaints commission to declare the allegations well-founded."

He said he "regretted the abuse and the victims' suffering" and had apologized to them.

Bert Smeets of Mea Culpa called the ruling "a slap in the face for the Dutch Roman Catholic Church."