Atheist Convention 2014

[Chizzang]

The point is that there is no "good" or "bad" if atheism is correct.

I don't know why atheists can't get that.

The key distinction about "right and wrong" is directly related to observable suffering...
It's really not that complicated John - I know you don't understand it - but lots of people do

[JohnStOnge]

The key distinction about "right and wrong" is directly related to observable suffering…

Why? Given the atheist premise, what is "wrong" about observable suffering?

You can't win this one Chiz. You really can't. You try to answer that one and I'm going to have another "why" question and/or another "what is wrong about (insert state or situation) question. And in the end you'll see that, under the atheist premise, you really can't say there is any intrinsic right or wrong.

[JohnStOnge]

It's really not that complicated John - I know you don't understand it - but lots of people do

No. They don't "understand" the ramifications of what they're saying. They think that if they say that right and wrong revolve around human suffering and/or happiness that's it because it's self evident. They think that's the end of it.

But it's not. What they think is self evident is not self evident under the atheist premise. Under the atheist premise there is no basis for saying that people suffering is "bad" or that people being happy is "good." It just is.

[SeattleGriz]

First off, nice Straw Man - esque analogy.

Secondly, you are telling me it is not okay for the average layperson to get guidance on the Bible from someone who is educated in it's context on one hand, but on the other you tell me you needed to take a class called Theology 101 to understand the Bible and learn it's real dark underbelly?

Lastly, you are saying the World's largest scam is being perpetrated because the truth of the Bible is being misrepresented in plain daylight, for all to read and discover, only if they would have only taken Theology 101.

Now I see your logic and can understand how you think Christians are misguided.



Let's not forget your absurd statement that the Bible is being used as a tool against human growth and enlightenment. By the way, you can thank Christians for starting the colleges that have Theology 101 in their curriculum. Pure Genius move!!!

I didn't say any of that... are you okay?
Please identify the Straw man argument in my post
(I don't think you understand what that means based on your weird post?)

What I'm saying is: if you're going to base your entire belief system on a book
Then you should probably read that book (Unlike the 90% of Christians who have NOT read the bible)

I didn't take Theology classes to learn any dark underbelly
I took Theology classes to learn about WORLD RELIGIONS because I believe the question of God is the single most important question in front of human kind

And YES the truth is absolutely being misrepresented by major Christian Religions
and I think anybody could pretty easily see that - with almost no research
I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but THE TRUTH is really important to me

but as a distinct point:
The bulk of the worlds major religions misrepresent the truth

So now in your response please reference my post
and not your imagination of what my post might be implying

What truth are you speaking of?

By the way, there is only one Christian religion, not plural.

[SeattleGriz]

Some levity to this discussion.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJXtCUBwBCI[/youtube]

[Chizzang]

It's really not that complicated John - I know you don't understand it - but lots of people do

No. They don't "understand" the ramifications of what they're saying. They think that if they say that right and wrong revolve around human suffering and/or happiness that's it because it's self evident. They think that's the end of it.

But it's not. What they think is self evident is not self evident under the atheist premise. Under the atheist premise there is no basis for saying that people suffering is "bad" or that people being happy is "good." It just is.

John it is because you confusing Atheism with Nihilism...
They are not the same thing

[Chizzang]

I didn't say any of that... are you okay?
Please identify the Straw man argument in my post
(I don't think you understand what that means based on your weird post?)

What I'm saying is: if you're going to base your entire belief system on a book
Then you should probably read that book (Unlike the 90% of Christians who have NOT read the bible)

I didn't take Theology classes to learn any dark underbelly
I took Theology classes to learn about WORLD RELIGIONS because I believe the question of God is the single most important question in front of human kind

And YES the truth is absolutely being misrepresented by major Christian Religions
and I think anybody could pretty easily see that - with almost no research
I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but THE TRUTH is really important to me

but as a distinct point:
The bulk of the worlds major religions misrepresent the truth

So now in your response please reference my post
and not your imagination of what my post might be implying

What truth are you speaking of?

By the way, there is only one Christian religion, not plural.

There are a metric-sh!t-load of Christian religions
and the observable truth vs. what is unknown
When the unknown referred to as truth - that is called BullSh!t

[SeattleGriz]

What truth are you speaking of?

By the way, there is only one Christian religion, not plural.

There are a metric-sh!t-load of Christian religions
and the observable truth vs. what is unknown
When the unknown referred to as truth - that is called BullSh!t

So you are telling me that God is an unknown and all multiple Christian religions (also called Christianity) are full of shit because God cannot be proven?

That is the crux of your disgruntlement?

I am not trying to be thick, but I love Christianity. It is very liberating, so I apparently am not understanding what you are saying. I need specifics.

[Chizzang]

There are a metric-sh!t-load of Christian religions
and the observable truth vs. what is unknown
When the unknown referred to as truth - that is called BullSh!t

So you are telling me that God is an unknown and all multiple Christian religions (also called Christianity) are full of shit because God cannot be proven?

That is the crux of your disgruntlement?

Why are you so confused about common English..? I'm not speaking in code
Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is bullsh!t
No more need be said or inferred by that statement, you can attach all kinds of what ifs or "did you really mean this or mean that" and postulate till the end of time...

Let me repeat:
1) Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is just plain old bullsh!t

2) I would absolutely separate FLDS from say Greek Orthodox from say Santeria = these are completely different religions - however - all listed under Christianity / Yet all completely different
so I repeat / There are many Christianities

[Skjellyfetti]

"thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself" = the summation of Christian morality.

There's no god needed to arrive at that morality. It just takes empathy.

[SeattleGriz]

So you are telling me that God is an unknown and all multiple Christian religions (also called Christianity) are full of shit because God cannot be proven?

That is the crux of your disgruntlement?

Why are you so confused about common English..? I'm not speaking in code
Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is bullsh!t
No more need be said or inferred by that statement, you can attach all kinds of what ifs or "did you really mean this or mean that" and postulate till the end of time...

Let me repeat:
1) Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is just plain old bullsh!t

2) I would absolutely separate FLDS from say Greek Orthodox from say Santeria = these are completely different religions - however - all listed under Christianity / Yet all completely different
so I repeat / There are many Christianities

First off, there are many different denominations of Christianity, not many different versions. Your Sam Harris YouTube video must not have differentiated the difference. That salient point alone makes me question your understanding of what Christianity is all about.

Secondly, where is it unproven? Do you have proof there is no God? Please let us all know so we can end this debate once and foreall.

[SeattleGriz]

"thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself" = the summation of Christian morality.

There's no god needed to arrive at that morality. It just takes empathy.

Agreed, but why can't there be a God? Especially if said God was for loving thy neighbor as self?

[YoUDeeMan]

Fun watching you make a fool out of yourself. You are retarded.

Now you know how we all feel about your tired, worn out threads spouting the same stereotyped bullshit. I tried to bring that point home last night, but was too stupidly drunk to make a coherent attempt.

So far this thread has produced the usual bullshit from atheists. No good reasons for atheism, just attacks on religion.

You fuckers sure do whine when that is the mode of attack on evolution, but yet you employ that tactic against religion.

Wait, this is your sober attempt at seeming smart?

[SeattleGriz]

Now you know how we all feel about your tired, worn out threads spouting the same stereotyped bullshit. I tried to bring that point home last night, but was too stupidly drunk to make a coherent attempt.

So far this thread has produced the usual bullshit from atheists. No good reasons for atheism, just attacks on religion.

You fuckers sure do whine when that is the mode of attack on evolution, but yet you employ that tactic against religion.

Wait, this is your sober attempt at seeming smart?

Easy Chief. I never said smart, just sober.

[Chizzang]

Why are you so confused about common English..? I'm not speaking in code
Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is bullsh!t
No more need be said or inferred by that statement, you can attach all kinds of what ifs or "did you really mean this or mean that" and postulate till the end of time...

Let me repeat:
1) Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is just plain old bullsh!t

2) I would absolutely separate FLDS from say Greek Orthodox from say Santeria = these are completely different religions - however - all listed under Christianity / Yet all completely different
so I repeat / There are many Christianities

First off, there are many different denominations of Christianity, not many different versions. Your Sam Harris YouTube video must not have differentiated the difference. That salient point alone makes me question your understanding of what Christianity is all about.

Secondly, where is it unproven? Do you have proof there is no God? Please let us all know so we can end this debate once and foreall.

Wow... (just wow)
For the 100th damn time - I believe in a higher power... and God works fine as a word for that
Let me repeat again - I have no issues with god (for the 100th time)
And at no point during this conversation did I mention caring anything about what you believe

But I stand on the statement, which seems to upset you and I don;t know why
!!!When the unknown is referenced as infallible truth = that's just bullsh!t!!!

And there are lots of different versions of what is holy in Christianity, you can play semantics
and that's fine

But: FLDS / Santeria / Greek Orthodox all worship different things inside the same coloring book

[SDHornet]

Look at these victims:

Holy shit they are keeping them in cages now!!!

[BlueHen86]

It's really not that complicated John - I know you don't understand it - but lots of people do

No. They don't "understand" the ramifications of what they're saying. They think that if they say that right and wrong revolve around human suffering and/or happiness that's it because it's self evident. They think that's the end of it.

But it's not. What they think is self evident is not self evident under the atheist premise. Under the atheist premise there is no basis for saying that people suffering is "bad" or that people being happy is "good." It just is.

If I need someone or something to tell me how things are, then those things aren't self evident.

I fail to see why:
1) I need to create a middle man
2) I need to determine what that middle man wants
in order to decide "good" or "bad".

[SeattleGriz]

First off, there are many different denominations of Christianity, not many different versions. Your Sam Harris YouTube video must not have differentiated the difference. That salient point alone makes me question your understanding of what Christianity is all about.

Secondly, where is it unproven? Do you have proof there is no God? Please let us all know so we can end this debate once and foreall.

Wow... (just wow)
For the 100th damn time - I believe in a higher power... and God works fine as a word for that
Let me repeat again - I have no issues with god (for the 100th time)
And at no point during this conversation did I mention caring anything about what you believe

But I stand on the statement, which seems to upset you and I don;t know why
!!!When the unknown is referenced as infallible truth = that's just bullsh!t!!!

And there are lots of different versions of what is holy in Christianity, you can play semantics
and that's fine

But: FLDS / Santeria / Greek Orthodox all worship different things inside the same coloring book

Sentence structure. Your sentence structure sucks. That would help immensely if you wrote like 95% of the population.

Also, I asked you specifically to give me an example, but you have obfuscated and delayed, which leads me to believe you are trolling, or you don't know what you are talking about. Which is it? I asked you a direct question about exactly what unknown, you avoided it.

In reference to your unknown, you have repeatedly trotted out the whale evolution paleontology as fact, when it has been ripped apart as bullshit. Where is your sensibilities on that one? It seems you apply selective scrutiny to ideas you don't like, while trying to portray yourself as open minded.

I am calling bullshit.

[SeattleGriz]

No. They don't "understand" the ramifications of what they're saying. They think that if they say that right and wrong revolve around human suffering and/or happiness that's it because it's self evident. They think that's the end of it.

But it's not. What they think is self evident is not self evident under the atheist premise. Under the atheist premise there is no basis for saying that people suffering is "bad" or that people being happy is "good." It just is.

If I need someone or something to tell me how things are, then those things aren't self evident.

I fail to see why:
1) I need to create a middle man
2) I need to determine what that middle man wants
in order to decide "good" or "bad".

You and Martin Luther would agree!!

Me as well.

[SeattleGriz]

Uh huh?
See positive nothing
Horrible plans.
Done

[Chizzang]

Uh huh?
See positive nothing
Horrible plans.
Done

[houndawg]

The key distinction about "right and wrong" is directly related to observable suffering…

Why? Given the atheist premise, what is "wrong" about observable suffering?

You can't win this one Chiz. You really can't. You try to answer that one and I'm going to have another "why" question and/or another "what is wrong about (insert state or situation) question. And in the end you'll see that, under the atheist premise, you really can't say there is any intrinsic right or wrong.

I've never heard of such a thing, would you be so kind as to state this so-called "atheist premise" for us?

[houndawg]

Why are you so confused about common English..? I'm not speaking in code
Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is bullsh!t
No more need be said or inferred by that statement, you can attach all kinds of what ifs or "did you really mean this or mean that" and postulate till the end of time...

Let me repeat:
1) Anytime the unknown is presented as infallible truth = that is just plain old bullsh!t

2) I would absolutely separate FLDS from say Greek Orthodox from say Santeria = these are completely different religions - however - all listed under Christianity / Yet all completely different
so I repeat / There are many Christianities

First off, there are many different denominations of Christianity, not many different versions. Your Sam Harris YouTube video must not have differentiated the difference. That salient point alone makes me question your understanding of what Christianity is all about.

Secondly, where is it unproven? Do you have proof there is no God? Please let us all know so we can end this debate once and foreall.

For example: A Methodist is just a Baptist that can read.

[JoltinJoe]

Actually, there is virtually no difference between Greek Orthodox and Catholicism. In fact, a Catholic can satisfy any liturgical obligation by attending a Greek Orthodox liturgy. There are some relatively minor doctrinal differences. The chief dispute between Catholicism and Greek Orthodox is the meaning of the primacy given the Bishop of Rome since the First Century. Catholics contend that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) has primacy in matters involving doctrine and governance of the universal Church. The Greek Orthodox Church contends the primacy of the Bishop of Rome involves doctrine only, and that other Churches are to be governed by local bishops.

[Chizzang]

Actually, there is virtually no difference between Greek Orthodox and Catholicism. In fact, a Catholic can satisfy any liturgical obligation by attending a Greek Orthodox liturgy. There are some relatively minor doctrinal differences. The chief dispute between Catholicism and Greek Orthodox is the meaning of the primacy given the Bishop of Rome since the First Century. Catholics contend that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) has primacy in matters involving doctrine and governance of the universal Church. The Greek Orthodox Church contends the primacy of the Bishop of Rome involves doctrine only, and that other Churches are to be governed by local bishops.

Okee Dokee
I went to a Greek Othodox church one Sunday and was mesmerized by the oddities of the proceedings
It didn't feel very Catholic to me but my point was that Greek orthodox and Santeria and FLDS are NOT the same thing

I'm obviously no expert in this regard, I will gladly default to your position...
(FLDS & Santeria not withstanding of course)