Villanova WAS overrated

[clenz]

Some fun quotes I found within 5 minutes of playing

tomcat - Jan9
The Big East will be fine this year

Seahawks jan 14
Creighton may get to the sweet 16 with him single-handily winning games.

Second, Depaul just won 2 games in a row. In other words, hell just froze over

I thought DePaul was a quality team this year?

This is also where I jumped in and attempted to start educating you with things like

Let me know when their last s16 appearance was. They play a style that always has them highly ranked in offense. I've watched them closely for years...I mean years...since they were in the MVC. Most over hyped program in the country

I may have been wrong...that goes to Nova, possibly

Greg McDermott teams have a long history of collapsing at the end of the season because of the way he coaches. He coached at UNI, I know first hand.

CU had no depth. They have 5 guys averaging 26 minutes are more and only 2 more over 14. McDermott has a losing record in Feb and March because of this. His teams can't play games that close together because by the time late Feb rolls around he is down to a 6 or 7 man only, rotation with 5 guys at 30 mpg during that stretch.

Last year's Creighton team was better than this one....and they've lost their biggest /only defensive threat

vutomcat
Butler is no joke

This may be a different Creighton than we are used to .

Really, on Butler?

Like I said...the exact same Creighton team as the past couple decades.

I said
They will win 1 game then lose. It's what they do.

If you dint want to listen to someone who has seen a dozen plus CU games per year the last decade or so...then so be it

I should have stopped here...but I'm a sucker and didn't

I kept going

They fall because they have no froth and suck shut on defense. The go only 7 deep with 5 over 26 mpg and only 2 others over 14. They rely completely on Doug and then the 3 ball....when you have that many miles by the end if the season the legs agent there for the threes, the bad defense gets worse, and there is very little experience on the back side to step in and contribute.

It happens every single year to McD coached teams...including his UNI teams. I've watched it for over a decade at this point. He has a sub '500 record after January...I'll pull the numbers to prove it.

Not just that, but this year is their last chance to get there when looking at them objectively.

I pulled the numbers on them elsewhere over the weekend...They are fucked after this year and completely fucked after next

I posted McDermott coached teams records since 01...a losing record. I posted CU's tournament record...showing no sweet 16s

I think I found my favorite tomcat post ever

I just think you are slow to realize how good they are because of prior years. If nothing lease they proved they can beat anyone when they are on.

I replied to that with

What I am saying is that CU is REALLY GOOD at smoke and mirrors during the regular season and then, because they don't have any depth...ever...they fall at the end of the year.

What happens if/when they don't hit that many threes...confidence falls a tad, tired legs, etc...

Conference tournament where they play 3 or 4 games in 3 or 4 days...they get into the NCAA tournament where they play 2 out of 3 days of high intensity basketball? They aren't built for that..Greg McDermott teams have NEVER been built for that. They are great during the season when you get 4-5 days rest between games. It's not a "huge deal" when you only go 6-7 deep on a regular basis but you only play twice per week. Why do you think CU does nothing in practice? Well, not nothing but they have probably the lightest practices in CBB. I remember last season there was a practice watch on CU because for about a 2 or 3 week stretch at the end of the season McDermott, Gibbs, Etchenique, Chattman, Wragge, Manigat, and Artino didn't practice at all outside of just shooting. Why was that? Because that was 95% of their minutes played per game right there and they couldn't afford to be working any harder in practice and still play a game.

Now, maybe McDermott has completely changed coaching styles after 15ish years of being a HC...doubtful.
Maybe he is playing his players less MPG...not actually happening

Don't believe me if you dont want too, and I'll eat crow if CU finally gets to as many Sweet 16s at UNI and Southern Illinois...Until then please continue to fall into their smoke and mirrors. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me...fool me every single year with McDermotts sub .500 Feb/March record...not fucking happening.

Seahawks followed up with

We need the Big East to send some quality teams, so it doesn't get the perception of a midmajor conference. And Creighton, Xavier, and Nova may be the only ones to make it. I'll be rooting for all 3!

Well...seahawks called it back in Jan...the perception is getting to a mid major...including failures by three teams specifically mentioned

tomcat talking about Seaton Hall

They are a VERY good team and they are about to make a big run in my opinion

Also from tomcat...in his next post, back to CU
[img]You are as stubborn as anyone. But, keep it up at this rate you will still be posting how bad they are into April as they cut down the nets.

On a serious note, you realize this is the best Creighton team ever , right?[/img]

I pointed out it's not CU's best team..

Gannon fan asked

Have you ever even seen Creighton before this year or before they played nova? I understand you want to make that loss by nova look as good as possible, but there's no way that Creighton would sweep Wichita St this year, let alone sweep the rest of the MVC.

and you avoided it, tomcat

tomcat also, talking about creighton, said

I don't need a lot of stats or prior history to support what my eyes can see clearly.

So...to justify not being a MM conference you want to use history and stats and numbers...but at the same time you don't....

Also from tomcat

As deep as any conference out there top to bottom. Only one weak team.

That's only from the first 174 posts of this thread...I can keep going if you wish.

[vutomcat]

Some fun quotes I found within 5 minutes of playing

tomcat - Jan9
The Big East will be fine this year

Seahawks jan 14
Creighton may get to the sweet 16 with him single-handily winning games.

Second, Depaul just won 2 games in a row. In other words, hell just froze over

I thought DePaul was a quality team this year?

This is also where I jumped in and attempted to start educating you with things like

Let me know when their last s16 appearance was. They play a style that always has them highly ranked in offense. I've watched them closely for years...I mean years...since they were in the MVC. Most over hyped program in the country

I may have been wrong...that goes to Nova, possibly

Greg McDermott teams have a long history of collapsing at the end of the season because of the way he coaches. He coached at UNI, I know first hand.

CU had no depth. They have 5 guys averaging 26 minutes are more and only 2 more over 14. McDermott has a losing record in Feb and March because of this. His teams can't play games that close together because by the time late Feb rolls around he is down to a 6 or 7 man only, rotation with 5 guys at 30 mpg during that stretch.

Last year's Creighton team was better than this one....and they've lost their biggest /only defensive threat

vutomcat
Butler is no joke

This may be a different Creighton than we are used to .

Really, on Butler?

Like I said...the exact same Creighton team as the past couple decades.

I said
They will win 1 game then lose. It's what they do.

If you dint want to listen to someone who has seen a dozen plus CU games per year the last decade or so...then so be it

I should have stopped here...but I'm a sucker and didn't

I kept going

They fall because they have no froth and suck shut on defense. The go only 7 deep with 5 over 26 mpg and only 2 others over 14. They rely completely on Doug and then the 3 ball....when you have that many miles by the end if the season the legs agent there for the threes, the bad defense gets worse, and there is very little experience on the back side to step in and contribute.

It happens every single year to McD coached teams...including his UNI teams. I've watched it for over a decade at this point. He has a sub '500 record after January...I'll pull the numbers to prove it.

Not just that, but this year is their last chance to get there when looking at them objectively.

I pulled the numbers on them elsewhere over the weekend...They are **** after this year and completely **** after next

I posted McDermott coached teams records since 01...a losing record. I posted CU's tournament record...showing no sweet 16s

I think I found my favorite tomcat post ever

I just think you are slow to realize how good they are because of prior years. If nothing lease they proved they can beat anyone when they are on.

I replied to that with

What I am saying is that CU is REALLY GOOD at smoke and mirrors during the regular season and then, because they don't have any depth...ever...they fall at the end of the year.

What happens if/when they don't hit that many threes...confidence falls a tad, tired legs, etc...

Conference tournament where they play 3 or 4 games in 3 or 4 days...they get into the NCAA tournament where they play 2 out of 3 days of high intensity basketball? They aren't built for that..Greg McDermott teams have NEVER been built for that. They are great during the season when you get 4-5 days rest between games. It's not a "huge deal" when you only go 6-7 deep on a regular basis but you only play twice per week. Why do you think CU does nothing in practice? Well, not nothing but they have probably the lightest practices in CBB. I remember last season there was a practice watch on CU because for about a 2 or 3 week stretch at the end of the season McDermott, Gibbs, Etchenique, Chattman, Wragge, Manigat, and Artino didn't practice at all outside of just shooting. Why was that? Because that was 95% of their minutes played per game right there and they couldn't afford to be working any harder in practice and still play a game.

Now, maybe McDermott has completely changed coaching styles after 15ish years of being a HC...doubtful.
Maybe he is playing his players less MPG...not actually happening

Don't believe me if you dont want too, and I'll eat crow if CU finally gets to as many Sweet 16s at UNI and Southern Illinois...Until then please continue to fall into their smoke and mirrors. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me...fool me every single year with McDermotts sub .500 Feb/March record...not **** happening.

Seahawks followed up with

We need the Big East to send some quality teams, so it doesn't get the perception of a midmajor conference. And Creighton, Xavier, and Nova may be the only ones to make it. I'll be rooting for all 3!

Well...seahawks called it back in Jan...the perception is getting to a mid major...including failures by three teams specifically mentioned

tomcat talking about Seaton Hall

They are a VERY good team and they are about to make a big run in my opinion

Also from tomcat...in his next post, back to CU
[img]You are as stubborn as anyone. But, keep it up at this rate you will still be posting how bad they are into April as they cut down the nets.

On a serious note, you realize this is the best Creighton team ever , right?[/img]

I pointed out it's not CU's best team..

Gannon fan asked

Have you ever even seen Creighton before this year or before they played nova? I understand you want to make that loss by nova look as good as possible, but there's no way that Creighton would sweep Wichita St this year, let alone sweep the rest of the MVC.

and you avoided it, tomcat

tomcat also, talking about creighton, said

I don't need a lot of stats or prior history to support what my eyes can see clearly.

So...to justify not being a MM conference you want to use history and stats and numbers...but at the same time you don't....

Also from tomcat

As deep as any conference out there top to bottom. Only one weak team.

That's only from the first 174 posts of this thread...I can keep going if you wish.

Here's one I found in 10 seconds...talk


Re: Seven Big East BB Schools being proactive

Postby clenz » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:13 am
The reason Creighton has struggled to make the NCAA's isn't because of them...it's because the rest of the MVC is really damn good, it just gets no play nationally because it's "mid-major"

Looks like you thought Creighton was really good huh? You are full of it.

[clenz]

Some fun quotes I found within 5 minutes of playing



I thought DePaul was a quality team this year?

This is also where I jumped in and attempted to start educating you with things like

I may have been wrong...that goes to Nova, possibly




Really, on Butler?

Like I said...the exact same Creighton team as the past couple decades.

I should have stopped here...but I'm a sucker and didn't

I kept going



I posted McDermott coached teams records since 01...a losing record. I posted CU's tournament record...showing no sweet 16s

I think I found my favorite tomcat post ever



I replied to that with


Seahawks followed up with

Well...seahawks called it back in Jan...the perception is getting to a mid major...including failures by three teams specifically mentioned

tomcat talking about Seaton Hall


Also from tomcat...in his next post, back to CU
[img]You are as stubborn as anyone. But, keep it up at this rate you will still be posting how bad they are into April as they cut down the nets.

On a serious note, you realize this is the best Creighton team ever , right?[/img]

I pointed out it's not CU's best team..

Gannon fan asked


and you avoided it, tomcat

tomcat also, talking about creighton, said


So...to justify not being a MM conference you want to use history and stats and numbers...but at the same time you don't....

Also from tomcat



That's only from the first 174 posts of this thread...I can keep going if you wish.

Here's one I found in 10 seconds...talk


Re: Seven Big East BB Schools being proactive

Postby clenz » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:13 am
The reason Creighton has struggled to make the NCAA's isn't because of them...it's because the rest of the MVC is really damn good, it just gets no play nationally because it's "mid-major"

Looks like you thought Creighton was really good huh? You are full of it.

I don't get what you're trying to say. I've said, from the start, sCUm is a team built perfectly for the regular season. They are really good when they get 4 days between games. When they can use smoke and mirrors to hide their major depth/personnel flaws.

I've never..ever...wavered from that.

The post you bring up is me saying that the mvc is a pretty damn good mm conference that Creighton was a good regular season team in.

However, like I pointed out many times...UNI, Bradley, SIU, and WSU from the MVC all have more s16 appearances than Creighton

[SDHornet]

[clenz]

A couple more while my kid is down for a nap

I don't know why I even bother educating you guys...

Best part is...this was while trying to convinces us a win over Temple this year was a good win.

NOVA -BIG EAST Snubbed on Gameday!


College Game day ran special game with Digger, Jay Bilas and Jayson Williams giving them each $100 to spend on 12 teams that they thought might win the NCAA tourney. The 12 teams they let them bid on included two teams the Cats have beaten -Kansas and Iowa as well as Mich St., Michigan, Wichita, San Diego St., Kentucky, Florida, Arizona, Syracuse, Virgina and Duke. At the conclusion of the game once each of them had selected their four teams they brought out one other wild card selection (Creighton) that any of them could use as a replacement for any of their selections. None of the four chose Creighton.

Sounds like they knew what they were talking about

The current Big East is extremely unlikely to send two teams to the Elite Eight, and may not even get multiple teams to the Sweet Sixteen. But in terms of overall strength from top to bottom, there’s hardly a difference between the new version and old version

So even tomcat admitted the conference wasn't as good as the old Big East...and admitted getting two teams out of the first weekend likely wouldn't happen....yet still argues it's one of the best conferences in the nation.

DePaul is critical for the long term success of the conference

IF you are right about this, tomcat, the conference is in much worse shape than any of us think



Interesting turn from VU here....agreeing with me and countering his early point that Butler was a good team and Creighton was going to be very good long term.

clenz: Creighton may be able to recover in a couple years to a middle of the pack to upper half Big East team...Butler? No.

vutomcat: Exactly why we need to be careful when adding teams.

seahawksfan90 (a different seahawks from before)
Damn. This is terrible right now. We are looking at three bids at the moment. How the heck is the fourth best league in the country only have 3 bids.

Maybe, because they weren't the 4th best conference

tomcat: 5 teams would be 50% of the conference! Clearly one of the elite conferences in the nation. Need some help though.

So...the AAC is elite right? A10?

seahawks08: I'll give you the A-10, but I just at people who say the AAC is better than any of the power conferences. They are the worst of them all and it's not even close. So no, the AAC is NOT better than the Big East this year.

Err...um...come again?

tomcat: Nova just got beat by a middle of the road conference team. Seems to me that proves how deep it is

Really? Losing to a "middle of the pack team" shows depth?



This post

Wright is correct, being one of the top 4 seeds (in a region) doesn't make a whole lot of difference, so the loss isn't the end of the world.

But BHBK is right, and it's what we've been saying about the Big East all year. Smoke and mirrors and RPI's may try to make the Big East look like it's still an elite conference, but at the end of the day, it has two really good teams in it, and that's if clenz is wrong and Creighton can still pull it together late in the year. The teams at the bottom just not being terrible helps mask the RPI, but unlike the elite conferences, where you end up playing top 40 teams at least once a week since early January, nova has had the luxury of playing so-so teams for much of that time. And when they did step up and play the other good team, they got blitzed. When your last really good win over a really good team was Iowa back when people were still recovering from their Thanksgiving holiday, that's gotta be a little worrisome heading into the dance.

Is pretty much spot on...and was on the time...but was dismissed by

Still Big East bashing? Crazy. This is a really good conference. Nova just got beat by a middle of the road conference team. Seems to me that proves how deep it is. They have two top 50 recruits coming in next year too. They will be a handful.

As for Nova, I'm not as worried as you are. It has been a remarkable run regardless of posters pulling out random stats that really don't mean anything. The Cats are a #1 or #2 seed on merit.

There goes tomcat again pointing out "useless" stats...which are actually as relevant (actually more so) than any of the pointless stats he's thrown out - which is strictly RPI. Which I've shown is very easily manipultated by the fact that 4 different RPI services have different results for last season for who the best conference was...depending what numbers they wanted to pull to achieve their biased goal

Also, that post was dismissed by

Wow...just wow.

Also, please get better about leaving the name of the person you are quoting in the quote.

and

Haters gonna Hate. Still a top four conference with a lot of parity between the teams this year. But get it right, a conference with a .750 out-of-conference winning percentage (and the 4th best RPI) is not weak overall. The Big East tourney will continue to draw because as we saw yesterday, on any given night any team can win... and people actually like that. Nothing compares to Big East basketball, it's history, it's proud programs and fans, and the best CBB conference tourney in the NCAA (and I'm a fan of the America East tbh...). Top to bottom I would fear any BE team on any given day ... Which other conference can boast that? The Big12?

Well..I don't fear the bottom of any conference....they are at the bottom.



At this point in the thread it was already clear tomcat was beaten and had given up on having an actual discussion...He actually still, has yet to answer, if Iowa is still considered a good win (mind you that Iowa game happened in November). He would later go on to brining up Wichita State (who had never once been mentioned in the thread, other than a team that was a virtual lock for a 1 seed since they entered the tourney at 34-0) to try to make a point...which I'm not sure what it was.

I posted this...which is still actually pretty damn acurate but was told I was completely wrong
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26174&start=275#p869342" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seahawks08 went so far as to call my postings in this thread "garbage". Yet...I've yet to be wrong on anything other than minor details that don't actually matter in the grand scheme of the discussion.


I tried to have a discussion about Nova's good wins (specifically Iowa) and tomcat, again, avoided the discussion and went into personal attack mode (for reasons I'm not sure)

You need therapy my man. You have a lot of pent up anger. You are foul, can't follow simple logic and seem to not care how unintelligent you sound. I gave you a last chance to have a civil discussion. you failed again.

Uh...yeah

I've said that the BE/AAC split is far to recent to judge as to who will be better long term by saying

The big east/aac split can't be judged off of just this season...you need to see when the ripple stats to settle. Having said that the AAC moving forward isn't in great shape, especially since uconn and cinci are gone with their first train out, and with Louisville leaving after this year you've got the old cusa but not as good. The new BE is going to backslide. You can be as big of a homer and deny that if you want but it's going to happen. You can try to raid the a10...but raising mid majors to prove you aren't a mid major conference...is...well....

And...after this the tournament started and the Big East teams getting boat-raced early started to happen...and BE fans started to withdraw and resort to more ad nauseam logic.

Also...as I stated I had VU in the S16.

I have Nova in the S16 in my bracket before bowing out to Iowa State.

At this point the thread spiraled into complete disarray...

[clenz]

I'm not sure why I'm the only one getting heat from BE fans...when gannonfan, bluehen86, and a couple others said the exact things I did.

[Seahawks08]

Depaul was a quality team before they lost their best player midway through the season. I'm still in disbelief that Gtown somehow lost to them in the BE tournament.

[GannonFan]

I'm not sure why I'm the only one getting heat from BE fans...when gannonfan, bluehen86, and a couple others said the exact things I did.

I'm pretty sure tomcat doesn't like me either. No worries, being right is better than being wrong, and we're clearly in the right.

[YoUDeeMan]

Guard play...

BTW, I found out who won this morning when my son's bus driver told me UConn won. Just couldn't get interested in watching a game involving those clowns from Kentucky. Wisconsin/UConn would have been a watchable game.

Anyway, Nova was overrated, as was the entire Big Least. Next year will be another quick exit for the Wildkitties.

[clenz]

I couldn't believe the amount of just running people over UK gets away with - not just last night...but every game.

anyway

Early top 25 for next season from ESPN

1. Arizona Wildcats
2. Duke Blue Devils
3. Kentucky Wildcats
4. Wisconsin Badgers
5. Wichita State Shockers
6. North Carolina Tar Heels
7. Virginia Cavaliers
8. Florida Gators
9. Kansas Jayhawks
10. Connecticut Huskies
11. SMU Mustangs
12. Louisville Cardinals
13. Villanova Wildcats
14. VCU Rams
15. Gonzaga Bulldogs
16. Iowa State Cyclones
17. Michigan Wolverines
18. Michigan State Spartans
19. Texas Longhorns
20. Oklahoma Sooners
21. Syracuse Orange
22. UCLA Bruins
23. Oregon Ducks
24. Kansas State Wildcats
25. Iowa Hawkeyes

Conference break down:
ACC – 5
B12 – 5
B10 – 4
P12 – 3
SEC – 2
AAC – 2
MVC – 1
A10 – 1
WCC – 1
BE – 1



Clearly the BE is a top 4 conference.

[GannonFan]

I couldn't believe the amount of just running people over UK gets away with - not just last night...but every game.

anyway

Early top 25 for next season

1. Arizona Wildcats
2. Duke Blue Devils
3. Kentucky Wildcats
4. Wisconsin Badgers
5. Wichita State Shockers
6. North Carolina Tar Heels
7. Virginia Cavaliers
8. Florida Gators
9. Kansas Jayhawks
10. Connecticut Huskies
11. SMU Mustangs
12. Louisville Cardinals
13. Villanova Wildcats
14. VCU Rams
15. Gonzaga Bulldogs
16. Iowa State Cyclones
17. Michigan Wolverines
18. Michigan State Spartans
19. Texas Longhorns
20. Oklahoma Sooners
21. Syracuse Orange
22. UCLA Bruins
23. Oregon Ducks
24. Kansas State Wildcats
25. Iowa Hawkeyes

Conference break down:
ACC – 5
B12 – 5
B10 – 4
P12 – 3
SEC – 2
AAC – 2
MVC – 1
A10 – 1
WCC – 1
BE – 1



Clearly the BE is a top 4 conference.

You're forgetting that Seton Hall is going to be LOADED and that St. John's is due for a return to prominence any year now.

[clenz]

A couple BR articles (yes...I know...BOO BR)

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2020 ... ent/page/3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How the mighty have fallen.

Over the previous 10 NCAA tournaments, the Big East had produced four national champions and 10 Final Four teams. In both cases, that was more than any other conference had during that stretch.

Along with great regular-season basketball and the best conference tournament, the Big East was on top of the college hoops world.

But then conference realignment happened.

All of those championship banners now hang in gyms that no longer belong to the Big East.

Not only did the Big East have to watch as a former conference member made a run to the national championship, but there wasn't a single Big East team in the Final Four.

Or the Elite Eight.

Or the Sweet 16.

The Big East went 2-4 in this year's tournament without playing against a single team seeded No. 5 or better.

Worse yet, Buzz Williams left Marquette to take an unheralded position at Virginia Tech. Meanwhile, St. John's is losing sophomore Jakarr Sampson to the NBA draft and sophomore Chris Obekpa has elected to transfer.

With Doug McDermott, Bryce Cotton and Semaj Christon all moving on to bigger and better things, the Big East could be rapidly deteriorating into a wasteland.

[clenz]

Bleacher Report (OH NOEZ...BLEACHER REPORT) top 25

1. Wisconsin
2. Arizona
3. Kansas
4. North Carlina
5. Duke
6. Kentucky
7. Florida
8. Wichita St
9. Virginia
10. UCONN
11. Nova
12. SMU
13. Iowa State
14. Michigan
15. Texas
16. Gonzaga
17. Nebraska
18. Kansas State
19. Oklahoma
20. Oregon
21. Louisville
22. Iowa
23. Harvard
24. Michigan State
25. Ohio State


By Conference
B10 6
B12 5
ACC 4
AAC 2
SEC 2
P12 2
MVC 1
WCC 1
Ivy 1
BE 1

[vutomcat]

Really silly

[vutomcat]

Guard play...

BTW, I found out who won this morning when my son's bus driver told me UConn won. Just couldn't get interested in watching a game involving those clowns from Kentucky. Wisconsin/UConn would have been a watchable game.

Anyway, Nova was overrated, as was the entire Big Least. Next year will be another quick exit for the Wildkitties.

This is really silly. Nova gets ousted by the tourney winner and you want to call them overrated? That Delaware football beating stills hurts?

[clenz]

Really silly

what would your top 25 look like?

Actually offer something of substance once in a while

[YoUDeeMan]

This is really silly. Nova gets ousted by the tourney winner and you want to call them overrated? That Delaware football beating stills hurts?

Quick, name all the top 25 teams that Nova beat in 2014.

[clenz]

Done

[SDHornet]