Title IX Strikes Again

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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

If you really believe that only liberals do that then there is no need to read further. You are biased and misguided.
I do think the Liberal side does it more. I guess one would have to do a study where they first set up criteria for identifying instances in which it's done then have some kind of scientific survey to document it.

But to me it's obvious that the Liberal side does it more. Like in the area of college admissions the Supreme Court ruled that they can't have quotas so now they say you have to have a "critical mass" of under represented minority students in order to get the benefits of "diversity" that the institution wants to have. Bottom line is they're shooting for having an "acceptable" percentage of under represented minority students but they've found a way to dance around calling it a "quota."

In fact I'm having trouble thinking of an example of someone on the Conservative side doing that sort of linguistic gymnastics right now. I'm sure there are some though. I'm guessing you'll come up with at least one.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by kalm »

From Wiki...
Background: The Clear Skies Initiative[edit]

On February 14, 2002 President George W. Bush announced the Clear Skies Initiative.[1] The policy was put together by Jim Connaughton, Chairman of the Council on Environmental Quality, and involved the work of Senators Bob Smith and George Voinovich and Congressmen Billy Tauzin and Joe Barton. The Initiative is based on a central idea: "that economic growth is key to environmental progress, because it is growth that provides the resources for investment in clean technologies." The resulting proposal was a market-based cap-and-trade approach which intends to legislate power plant emissions caps without specifying the specific methods used to reach those caps. The Initiative would reduce the cost and complexity of compliance and the need for litigation.
Current power plant emissions amounted to 67% of all sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions (in the United States), 37% of mercury emissions, and 25% of all nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions. Only SO2 has been administered under a cap-and-trade program.
The goals of the Initiative are threefold:
Cut SO2 emissions by 73%, from emissions of 11 million tons to a cap of 4.5 million tons in 2010, and 3 million tons in 2018.
Cut NOx emissions by 67%, from emissions of 5 million tons to a cap of 2.1 million tons in 2008, and to 1.7 million tons in 2018.
Cut mercury emissions by 69%, from emissions of 48 tons to a cap of 26 tons in 2010, and 15 tons in 2018.
Actual emissions caps would be set to account for different air quality needs in the East and West.
Through the use of a market-based cap-and-trade program, the intent of the Initiative was to reward innovation, reduce costs, and guarantee results. Each power plant facility would be required to have a permit for each ton of pollution emitted. Because the permits are tradeable, companies would have a financial incentive to cut back their emissions using newer technologies.
The Initiative was modeled on the successful SO2 emissions trading program in effect since 1995. According to the President, the program had reduced air pollution more than all other programs under the Clean Air Act of 1990 combined. Actual reductions were more than the law required and compliance was virtually 100% without the need for litigation. Also, he said that only a "handful" of employees were needed to administer the program. The total cost to achieve the reductions was about 80% less than had originally been expected.
Bush mentioned several benefits of the Initiative:
Reduces respiratory and cardiovascular diseases by dramatically reducing smog, fine particles, and regional haze.
Protects wildlife, habitats and ecosystem health from acid rain, nitrogen and mercury deposition.
Cuts pollution further, faster, cheaper, and with more certainty—replacing a cycle of endless litigation with rapid and certain improvements in air quality.
Saves as much as $1 billion annually in compliance costs that are passed along to consumers.
Protects the reliability and affordability of electricity.
Encourages use of new and cleaner pollution control technologies.
Competing proposals[edit]

In May 2004, the Energy Information Administration (EIA) released a study comparing the Clear Skies Act with the Clean Air Planning Act of 2003 (S. 843), introduced by Senator Thomas R. Carper, and the Clean Power Act of 2003 (S. 366), introduced by Senator James Jeffords.
The differences between the three bills are summarized as follows:
Carbon dioxide emissions: While all three bills implement emissions targets on power sector emissions of NOx, SO2, and mercury, the Clean Air Planning Act and the Clean Power Act also call for limits on carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions. Under the Clean Air Planning Act, greenhouse gas emission reductions outside of the power sector, referred to as offsets, can be used to meet the emission targets for CO2.
Size of generators covered: All three bills cover emissions from larger generators that generate power for sale, including central station generators and generators at customer sites that sell power they do not use for their own needs. The Clear Skies and Clean Air Planning Acts cover generating facilities 25 megawatts and larger, while the Clean Power Act covers facilities 15 megawatts and larger. The bills have differing provisions regarding the coverage of combined heat and power facilities that generate some power for sale.
Emissions caps: The bills generally rely on emissions cap and trade programs to achieve the required reductions. Under such programs, allowances will be allocated and covered generators will have to submit one allowance for each unit of emissions they produce. However, for mercury, the Clean Air Planning Act combines a minimum removal target for all plants with an emissions cap, and the Clean Power Act specifies a maximum emissions rate for all facilities and allows no trading of mercury allowances. The Clear Skies Act contains a "safety valve" feature that caps the price that power companies would have to pay for mercury ($2,187.50 per ounce or $35,000 per pound), SO2 ($4,000 per ton), and NOx ($4,000 per ton) allowances. Should one or more of these "safety valves" be triggered, the corresponding cap on emissions would effectively be relaxed.
Emissions allocation: Under the Clear Skies Act, emission allowances are to be allocated based on historical fuel consumption, what is often referred to as "grandfathering". Under the Clean Air Planning Act, a grandfathering approach is used to allocate emission allowances for SO2, but allowances for NOx, mercury, and CO2, are allocated using an output-based scheme. Under this approach, referred to as a generation performance standard (GPS), generators are given allowances for each unit of electricity they generate. The number of allowances allocated for each unit of generation changes each year as the total generation from covered sources changes. The use of a GPS dampens the electricity price impacts of the bill but raises overall compliance costs.
Control technology: In addition to the emission caps, the Clean Power Act also requires that all plants have the best available control technology (BACT) beginning in 2014 or when they reach 40 years of age, whichever comes later. This provision, often referred to as a "birthday" provision, requires older plants to add controls even if the total emissions of covered facilities are below the emission caps.
Criticisms in opposition[edit]

The law reduces air pollution controls, including those environmental protections of the Clean Air Act, including caps on toxins in the air and budget cuts for enforcement. The Act is opposed by conservationist groups such as the Sierra Club with Henry A. Waxman, a Democratic congressman of California, describing its title as "clear propaganda."
Among other things, the Clear Skies Act:
Allows 42 million more tons of pollution emitted than the EPA proposal.
Weakens the current cap on nitrogen oxide pollution levels from 1.25 million tons to 2.1 million tons, allowing 68% more NOx pollution.
Delays the improvement of sulfur dioxide (SO2) pollution levels compared to the Clean Air Act requirements.
Delays enforcement of smog-and-soot pollution standards until 2015.
By 2018, the Clear Skies Act will supposedly allow 3 million tons more NOx through 2012 and 8 million more by 2020, for SO2, 18 million tons more through 2012 and 34 million tons more through 2020. 58 tons more mercury through 2012 and 163 tons more through 2020 would be released into the environment than what would be allowed by enforcement of the Clean Air Act.[2]
In August 2001, the EPA proposed a version of the Clear Skies Act that contained short timetables and lower emissions caps [3]. It is unknown why this proposal was withdrawn and replaced with the Bush Administration proposal. It is also unclear whether or not the original EPA proposal would have made it out of committee.
In addition, some opponents consider the term, "Clear Skies Initiative" (similarly to the Healthy Forests Initiative), to be an example of administration Orwellian Doublespeak, using environmentally friendly terminology as "cover" for a give-away to business interests.[1]
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by travelinman67 »

JohnStOnge wrote:Here is the thing about Title IX, by the way. The applicable language is this:
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance,
As I've written before, what that says and how it's being "interpreted" are two different things. Just the fact that there are separate athletic programs for females violates that language. If a guy asks to try out for the LSU soccer team, for example, he's going to be told "no." And the reason he's going to be told "no" is that he is a guy and it is a female sports team. He's going to be "…on the basis of sex, excluded from participation…" on the soccer team. VERY clearly a violation of what the language actually says.

To really follow that language, everybody would eliminate the distinction between male and female sports. There would be no sports such that males are excluded from participation. And who made and did not make each team would be based strictly on how good they are. And if a female sprinter went out for the track team and did not make it because she couldn't run a fast enough time she would be being excluded on the basis of not having sufficient ability. It would not be "on the basis of sex."

The law itself? I don't like the whole idea of a bunch of money going to the Federal government then the Federal government re-distributing it with strings attached. But beyond that, if we're going to enforce that law, we ought to enforce what it actually says instead of distorting it through Judicial decisions into something else.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Yeah, next thing you know they'll start making accommodations for the hearing impaired. **** egalitarians…
I just mentioned the handicapped accommodations thing because it was mentioned in a response. But since it was brought up and mentioned hearing impairment:

Yes, I am opposed to the idea of something like the Americans With Disabilities Act even though I have a deaf son. So is my deaf son. He does believes it is his job to overcome his difficulties and adapt. He does not believe others in the society should be forced to accommodate him.
America is a better society for this whether you and your son recognize it or not. :nod:
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
If you really believe that only liberals do that then there is no need to read further. You are biased and misguided.
I do think the Liberal side does it more. I guess one would have to do a study where they first set up criteria for identifying instances in which it's done then have some kind of scientific survey to document it.

But to me it's obvious that the Liberal side does it more. Like in the area of college admissions the Supreme Court ruled that they can't have quotas so now they say you have to have a "critical mass" of under represented minority students in order to get the benefits of "diversity" that the institution wants to have. Bottom line is they're shooting for having an "acceptable" percentage of under represented minority students but they've found a way to dance around calling it a "quota."

In fact I'm having trouble thinking of an example of someone on the Conservative side doing that sort of linguistic gymnastics right now. I'm sure there are some though. I'm guessing you'll come up with at least one.

Of course you do.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

In addition, some opponents consider the term, "Clear Skies Initiative" (similarly to the Healthy Forests Initiative), to be an example of administration Orwellian Doublespeak, using environmentally friendly terminology as "cover" for a give-away to business interests.
Ok that's a good one. In that particular case it's referring to what "some opponents" say. But Republicans do do that sort of thing. I don't know if I'd put it in terms like "give-away to business interests" but they WILL spin something as an "environmental" effort when what they're really doing is trying to strike a reasonable balance between environmental concerns and other concerns.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

America is a better society for this whether you and your son recognize it or not.
I don't think so. I don't think it's a better society, for instance, when the friggin' national government is telling some Mom and Pop operation that wants to sell hamburgers that they HAVE to put in a wheelchair ramp, handicapped restroom stalls, etc.

That's not "better." That's over reaching and over intrusive government. And you're not making a better society when you send the message to people that they are entitled to have other people forced by government to make accommodations for them.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

Of course you do.
And you don't? Seriously now.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Of course you do.
And you don't? Seriously now.
I don't. I don't believe that deceit runs along party lines. The idea is pretty stupid really. You would see that if you weren't so biased. You really would.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

I don't. I don't believe that deceit runs along party lines. The idea is pretty stupid really. You would see that if you weren't so biased. You really would.
And what makes my belief in this regard biased and yours unbiased? I didn't say deceit is exclusive to one side or the other. I said I think it is more prevalent on one side.

So if I say that and you say it's equally distributed, what makes my statement more likely to be biased than yours is? And you can't document that what you think is accurate any more than I can document my own belief.

Could be that you have a bias towards thinking you have to say both sides are just as bad about something. Could be that's something you're biased towards believing.

BTW I'm not talking about what we see in political campaigns. Obviously deceit runneth over in that area. I'm talking about what people do day in and day out during things like debates over policy and what the best approaches are, etc.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
I don't. I don't believe that deceit runs along party lines. The idea is pretty stupid really. You would see that if you weren't so biased. You really would.
And what makes my belief in this regard biased and yours unbiased? I didn't say deceit is exclusive to one side or the other. I said I think it is more prevalent on one side.

So if I say that and you say it's equally distributed, what makes my statement more likely to be biased than yours is? And you can't document that what you think is accurate any more than I can document my own belief.

Could be that you have a bias towards thinking you have to say both sides are just as bad about something. Could be that's something you're biased towards believing.

BTW I'm not talking about what we see in political campaigns. Obviously deceit runneth over in that area. I'm talking about what people do day in and day out during things like debates over policy and what the best approaches are, etc.
You are clearly biased when it comes to conservative /liberal. Perhaps we all are to an extent. To me you seem more biased than most. You are entitled to your opinion, but it has little credibility with me when it comes to politics.

Nice job with the thread though. We're talking about you instead of whatever the thread was supposed to be about. Nice work. :thumb:
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

You are clearly biased when it comes to conservative /liberal. Perhaps we all are to an extent. To me you seem more biased than most. You are entitled to your opinion, but it has little credibility with me when it comes to politics.

Nice job with the thread though. We're talking about you instead of whatever the thread was supposed to be about. Nice work. :thumb:
Your opinion is that I am biased. And the only reason we are talking about me is because you brought up the question of whether or not I'm biased.

I'm not. I've been around for a little over a half a century. My perspective with respect to Liberals or Conservatives was developed through what I've seen an experienced over that time. I didn't start off in any particular way. The information led me to conclude that "Liberals" are, overall, more dishonest and more willing to use "ends justify means" misinformation than "Conservatives" are. They are much more into the "situational ethics" philosophy. They will lie to you in a heartbeat for what they perceive as "the greater good." They will distort anything, including the practice of science, to do it.

And the irony of it is that they project themselves as the honest ones. They're not.
Last edited by JohnStOnge on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You are clearly biased when it comes to conservative /liberal. Perhaps we all are to an extent. To me you seem more biased than most. You are entitled to your opinion, but it has little credibility with me when it comes to politics.

Nice job with the thread though. We're talking about you instead of whatever the thread was supposed to be about. Nice work. :thumb:
Your opinion is that I am biased. And the only reason we are talking about me is because you brought up the question of whether I not I'm biased.

What we should be focusing on is that fact that it is indeed true that those who come from the "Liberal" perspective are indeed more dishonest than those who come from the "Conservative" perspective are. Not that there's not dishonesty on both sides. But the "Liberal" side definitely has the edge.

And the irony of it is that they project themselves as the honest ones. They're not.
You're seriously trying too hard now ... :lol:
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

You're seriously trying too hard now .
I'm not trying hard at all. I'm just telling the truth. Telling the truth is easy. Much easier than lying.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You are clearly biased when it comes to conservative /liberal. Perhaps we all are to an extent. To me you seem more biased than most. You are entitled to your opinion, but it has little credibility with me when it comes to politics.

Nice job with the thread though. We're talking about you instead of whatever the thread was supposed to be about. Nice work. :thumb:
Your opinion is that I am biased. And the only reason we are talking about me is because you brought up the question of whether I not I'm biased.

What we should be focusing on is that fact that it is indeed true that those who come from the "Liberal" perspective are indeed more dishonest than those who come from the "Conservative" perspective are. Not that there's not dishonesty on both sides. But the "Liberal" side definitely has the edge.

And the irony of it is that they project themselves as the honest ones. They're not.
Conks are just as bad. Look at you, you started this thread under the guise of talking about a bad decision, but your real intent was to bash liberals. You wanted people to think you were doing one thing, but you were doing something else. Very deceitful of you.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

Conks are just as bad. Look at you, you started this thread under the guise of talking about a bad decision, but your real intent was to bash liberals. You wanted people to think you were doing one thing, but you were doing something else. Very deceitful of you.
No deceit at all. The "Title IX" paradigm as it is practiced is a bad one. And the reason it exists is Liberalism. Liberalism is the cause of the bad paradigm. That's the idea.

I am not trying to hide the fact that Liberalism or Progressivism or whatever you want to call it is at fault at all. That was the point. Presenting one more example of the harm Liberalism does.

Not that it's never done ANYTHING good. It has. But on balance it has been a negative thing. And this is an example of one of its negative influences.
Last edited by JohnStOnge on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You're seriously trying too hard now .
I'm not trying hard at all. I'm just telling the truth. Telling the truth is easy. Much easier than lying.
So you apply scientific studies only when it suits your purposes. :roll:

Where is the evidence supporting your "truth"?

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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Conks are just as bad. Look at you, you started this thread under the guise of talking about a bad decision, but your real intent was to bash liberals. You wanted people to think you were doing one thing, but you were doing something else. Very deceitful of you.
No deceit at all. The "Title IX" paradigm as it is practiced is a bad one. And the reason it exists is Liberalism. Liberalism is the cause of the bad paradigm. That's the idea.

I am not trying to hide the fact that Liberalism or Progressivism or whatever you want to call it is at fault at all. That was the point. Presenting one more example of the harm Liberalism does.

Not that it's never done ANYTHING good. It has. But on balance it has been a negative thing. And this is an example of one of its negative influences.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You're seriously trying too hard now .
I'm not trying hard at all. I'm just telling the truth. Telling the truth is easy. Much easier than lying.
John, you have a problem confusing your opinion with truth or fact. It's your opinion that liberals are more dishonest and you've come to it based on experience and observation but that doesn't make it the truth. Step back and look at what you've said here and elsewhere. You like to hold others to a high standard of having to prove their theories through rigid scientific methods but you want others to take your opinion as truth or fact. Your methods wouldn't even meet the standards of a sociological or political science study (disciplines which you would dismiss as non-sciences) yet you want us to believe them because you say it's so.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
I'm not trying hard at all. I'm just telling the truth. Telling the truth is easy. Much easier than lying.
John, you have a problem confusing your opinion with truth or fact. It's your opinion that liberals are more dishonest and you've come to it based on experience and observation but that doesn't make it the truth. Step back and look at what you've said here and elsewhere. You like to hold others to a high standard of having to prove their theories through rigid scientific methods but you want others to take your opinion as truth or fact. Your methods wouldn't even meet the standards of a sociological or political science study (disciplines which you would dismiss as non-sciences) yet you want us to believe them because you say it's so.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

So you apply scientific studies only when it suits your purposes. :roll:

Where is the evidence supporting your "truth"?
I said in an earlier post that I can't provide that level of evidence for what I said. It is the truth as I see it.

However, it is equally the case that you cannot rebut it.

There are certain things that fall into such realms.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

ohn, you have a problem confusing your opinion with truth or fact. It's your opinion that liberals are more dishonest and you've come to it based on experience and observation but that doesn't make it the truth.
It is the truth in this sense:

Someone asks you, "Who do you think are more dishonest?"

And you honestly answer, "Liberals."

The question of whether you can demonstrate that as fact or not is different than the question of whether you are being biased or not. It's quite possible that, due to the difficulty and complexity of substantiating any position with respect to that question, you cannot provide "proof" one way or the other. But that doesn't mean you're biased in reaching the conclusion you reach.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
So you apply scientific studies only when it suits your purposes. :roll:

Where is the evidence supporting your "truth"?
I said in an earlier post that I can't provide that level of evidence for what I said. It is the truth as I see it.

However, it is equally the case that you cannot rebut it.

There are certain things that fall into such realms.
And you can't rebut my opinion that conks and libs are equally deceitful, but you keep trying. :lol:
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JohnStOnge
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by JohnStOnge »

And you can't rebut my opinion that conks and libs are equally deceitful, but you keep trying.
Actually, I think I wrote that I can't. I think I wrote that you can't rebut my opinion on that issue any more than I can rebut yours.

What I'm rebutting is your assertion that my opinion is the result of bias.
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Re: Title IX Strikes Again

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
And you can't rebut my opinion that conks and libs are equally deceitful, but you keep trying.
Actually, I think I wrote that I can't. I think I wrote that you can't rebut my opinion on that issue any more than I can rebut yours.

What I'm rebutting is your assertion that my opinion is the result of bias.
You're biased, also my opinion. Which you can't rebut, but I know you will try. :lol:
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