Angry, Murdering, God

[Chizzang]

No no...not "inaccurate." "Wrong." As in "Morally Wrong."

Start by googling "an open letter to Dr. Laura" and move on from there.

I'd like to know why I can't own a Canadian..!!! (between them or Mexicans)
Liviticus says I can have slaves

[kalm]

Start by googling "an open letter to Dr. Laura" and move on from there.

I'd like to know why I can't own a Canadian..!!! (between them or Mexicans)
Liviticus says I can have slaves

Seriously, how can Christianity be taken seriously while the OT is still in print?

[JoltinJoe]

I'd like to know why I can't own a Canadian..!!! (between them or Mexicans)
Liviticus says I can have slaves

Seriously, how can Christianity be taken seriously while the OT is still in print?

The NT says the Civil Law of Moses is obsolete. Books like Leviticus set forth not the Law of God, but the Civil Law of Moses. These books remain as part of the Catholic Canon for contextual purposes, for in many instances in the Gospels, Christ expounds or comments on the Civil Law of Moses. See, e.g., Matthew 5:38-39.

In any event, the Civil Law of Moses is NOT the Law of God, which Christ came to fulfill.

[Ibanez]

Seriously, how can Christianity be taken seriously while the OT is still in print?

The NT says the Civil Law of Moses is obsolete. Books like Leviticus set forth not the Law of God, but the Civil Law of Moses. These books remain as part of the Catholic Canon for contextual purposes, for in many instances in the Gospels, Christ expounds or comments on the Civil Law of Moses. See, e.g., Matthew 5:38-39.

In any event, the Civil Law of Moses is NOT the Law of God, which Christ came to fulfill.

So what about the 10 Commandments, food laws, purity laws, laws against homosexuality?

[Ibanez]

Ok, I see where the 10 commandments aren't part of the Law of Moses.

[Ibanez]

I don't know, I think some of these laws are good.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To love all human beings who are of the covenant
Not to wrong any one in speech
To relieve a neighbor of his burden and help to unload his beast
To love the stranger
Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=ESV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lev 18

“None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord. 7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness. 9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home. 10 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter or of your daughter's daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness. 11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, brought up in your father's family, since she is your sister. 12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative. 13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is your mother's relative. 14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. 15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. 17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are relatives; it is depravity. 18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

19 “You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness. 20 And you shall not lie sexually with your neighbor's wife and so make yourself unclean with her. 21 You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.

We better alert the Christian right.

[D1B]

Seriously, how can Christianity be taken seriously while the OT is still in print?

The NT says the Civil Law of Moses is obsolete. Books like Leviticus set forth not the Law of God, but the Civil Law of Moses. These books remain as part of the Catholic Canon for contextual purposes, for in many instances in the Gospels, Christ expounds or comments on the Civil Law of Moses. See, e.g., Matthew 5:38-39.

In any event, the Civil Law of Moses is NOT the Law of God, which Christ came to fulfill.

Catholic apologist excuses.

[D1B]

Seriously, how can Christianity be taken seriously while the OT is still in print?

The NT says the Civil Law of Moses is obsolete. Books like Leviticus set forth not the Law of God, but the Civil Law of Moses. These books remain as part of the Catholic Canon for contextual purposes, for in many instances in the Gospels, Christ expounds or comments on the Civil Law of Moses. See, e.g., Matthew 5:38-39.

In any event, the Civil Law of Moses is NOT the Law of God, which Christ came to fulfill.

Bullshit apologist excuse to avoid the brutality and atrocities of the christian god in the OT.

Joe's been eating too much mustard and is, as always, full of shit.

[D1B]

Seriously, how can Christianity be taken seriously while the OT is still in print?

The NT says the Civil Law of Moses is obsolete. Books like Leviticus set forth not the Law of God, but the Civil Law of Moses. These books remain as part of the Catholic Canon for contextual purposes, for in many instances in the Gospels, Christ expounds or comments on the Civil Law of Moses. See, e.g., Matthew 5:38-39.

In any event, the Civil Law of Moses is NOT the Law of God, which Christ came to fulfill.

Yet we have this:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Joltin Joe = World's biggest liar.

[D1B]

And this:

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

[D1B]

Christians and catholic excuse makers been distancing themselves from the OT ever since atheist biblical experts exposed what was actually in the bible to the billions of christian and catholic idiots who never read it.

Want to know something about the bible?, ask an atheist.

Want to know how to fuck children and get away with it?, ask a catholic priest, cardinal, bishop or pope.

[JoltinJoe]

And this:

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

A lot of stupid stuff in there. Amazing how they distort the actual scripture in their summaries.

The civil law of Moses is not "The Law" of God. When Jesus says not one iota of the Law is to be abrogated, that refers to the Law of God.

This is pretty basic stuff. They cover it in Catholic grammar schools. Were you not paying attention? Shocking!

[D1B]

And this:

A lot of stupid stuff in there. Amazing how they distort the actual scripture in their summaries.

The civil law of Moses is not "The Law" of God. When Jesus says not one iota of the Law is to be abrogated, that refers to the Law of God.

This is pretty basic stuff. They cover it in Catholic grammar schools. Were you not paying attention? Shocking!

Classic catholic "workaround" excuse to distance the superhero god of the NT from the total asshole in the OT. Pretty soon the OT will not be a part of the bible.

This workaround is a close relative of the catholic priest "reacharound" in that in both cases someone is blowing (hot air or altar boy) and someone is getting fucked.

Boilerplate Joltinian horse shit.

[JoltinJoe]

A lot of stupid stuff in there. Amazing how they distort the actual scripture in their summaries.

The civil law of Moses is not "The Law" of God. When Jesus says not one iota of the Law is to be abrogated, that refers to the Law of God.

This is pretty basic stuff. They cover it in Catholic grammar schools. Were you not paying attention? Shocking!

Classic catholic "workaround" excuse to distance the superhero god of the NT from the total asshole in the OT. Pretty soon the OT will not be a part of the bible.

This workaround is a close relative of the catholic priest "reacharound" in that in both cases someone is blowing (hot air or altar boy) and someone is getting ****.

Boilerplate Joltinian horse ****.

Except Catholics have not been following the civil laws of Moses since about 33 AD ...

[D1B]

Classic catholic "workaround" excuse to distance the superhero god of the NT from the total asshole in the OT. Pretty soon the OT will not be a part of the bible.

This workaround is a close relative of the catholic priest "reacharound" in that in both cases someone is blowing (hot air or altar boy) and someone is getting ****.

Boilerplate Joltinian horse ****.

Except Catholics have not been following the civil laws of Moses since about 33 AD ...

Strawman. Joltinan lie.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

[JoltinJoe]

[D1B]

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

[JohnStOnge]

Start by googling "an open letter to Dr. Laura" and move on from there.

Now now, answer the question: Why is any of it morally wrong?

[JoltinJoe]

Hey, if you think repeating over and over the same distorted and falsified summaries of scripture -- that you've lifted from some dopey website -- helps your case, go for it.

By way of mere example, anyone who actually reads the text of Matthew 15:4-7 or John 7:10 (the same story) is going to understand that Jesus was not saying that disobedient children should be stoned. In this story, the Pharisees criticize Jesus for not complying with the ritualistic washing found in the civil law of Moses, and claim that Jesus is violating the law. Jesus turns the tables on the them, to demonstrate their hypocrisy, by pointing out that the Pharisees disobey the civil law of Moses when they do not stone disobedient children. The obvious point is that the civil law of Moses is neither followed nor the Law of God.

It's exactly like when someone here like dbackjon points out here that some fundies will cite Leviticus to say that gays should be stoned, but then they eat shellfish.

[Chizzang]

Hey, if you think repeating over and over the same distorted and falsified summaries of scripture -- that you've lifted from some dopey website -- helps your case, go for it.

Joe
For someone who goes out of his way to criticize web sources
You sure use dopey websites a lot also

Pick one side or the other Joe

and secondly your primary source "The Books of the Bible"
Are as shrouded and sketchy as any source on the internet could ever be
By definition almost - the history of your primary source - is a history of blatant obfuscation

I'd just "stick to your argument" if I was you...

[JoltinJoe]

Hey, if you think repeating over and over the same distorted and falsified summaries of scripture -- that you've lifted from some dopey website -- helps your case, go for it.

Joe
For someone who goes out of his way to criticize web sources
You sure use dopey websites a lot also

Pick one side or the other Joe

and secondly your primary source "The Books of the Bible"
Are as shrouded and sketchy as any source on the internet could ever be
By definition almost - the history of your primary source - is a history of blatant obfuscation

I'd just "stick to your argument" if I was you...

And I've never met anyone with more intellect who uses it less than you do. I'd think someone as bright as you would not be so lazy, and would challenge yourself more, to actually learn and engage yourself.

And it is "I'd just stick to your argument if I were you."

[Chizzang]

Joe
For someone who goes out of his way to criticize web sources
You sure use dopey websites a lot also

Pick one side or the other Joe

and secondly your primary source "The Books of the Bible"
Are as shrouded and sketchy as any source on the internet could ever be
By definition almost - the history of your primary source - is a history of blatant obfuscation

I'd just "stick to your argument" if I was you...

And I've never met anyone with more intellect who uses it less than you do. I'd think someone as bright as you would not be so lazy, and would challenge yourself more, to actually learn and engage yourself.

And it is "I'd just stick to your argument if I were you."

I'm not nearly as smart as you are Joe...
and I'm perfectly happy admitting that to anybody on this forum or beyond

[Grizalltheway]

Hey D, on what basis do you say that all that Old Testament stuff you posted is wrong?

Well, God is the only source of morality, and he says it's cool, so it must be so.

Am I doing this right?

[JohnStOnge]

Well, God is the only source of morality, and he says it's cool, so it must be so.

Am I doing this right?

Kind of. But that's not quite the question. What I'm looking for is an argument that there is a source of innate intrinsic morality in the absence of "God" or something else like that which sets the moral rules.

If you're going to say that "God" or something else is NOT the only source of morality, you need to come up with something else that IS a source of intrinsic morality.

And I can tell you ahead of time that you can't do it.

[JohnStOnge]

Here's the thing, and atheists do this all the time:

They start looking at the Bible and saying that it promotes this and that which is obviously WRONG. But they're in a box because if they're denying anything like God there IS no intrinsic right and wrong so why the hell are they bitching about it?

And yes I know some very complex efforts have been made to argue that there IS an intrinsic right and wrong without something like "God." But there isn't. All efforts in that regard fail.

So they're arguing about an "immoral" God on the basis of morality that can only exist if there is a God or something like that. It's ridiculous.