Angry, Murdering, God

[Chizzang]

No, not really... not everyone.

I really do think that Carl Sagan was correct- that maybe there are higher forms of intelligence than our own, but those are not gods or God. Individually we are just the stuff of the cosmos, our atoms and molecules come together in an ordered way for an instant, and once we burn out, we return to inanimate matter.

Nothing-Something-Nothing

That's why I get defensive when people are ridiculed for their honestly held religious beliefs... because we all have different coping mechanisms for this realization ^^^ (if we ever even consider it at all)

Some of us accept it. I'm in that group and I think we are rare birds

The other end of the spectrum is people who cannot accept/comprehend it. The mere acceptance of it might drive them mad- there's your religion- there HAS to be some other reason- there HAS to be more to it than that.

So my defensiveness of/for Christians is not as altruistic or kind hearted as you might think..... it is actually probably condescending and paternalistic more than anything, and I'll freely admit that... like thinking it is UNCOOL to tell someone's 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus.

Belief in Jesus as the Son of God and belief in Santa are equally harmless to me (me, CID1990) and therefore I see no reason to have a crusade against them. And I totally get Chizstain's take on it- the 'brainwashing is murder' thingy... I get that

I just think the ridicule thing makes people assholes.

Charming ^ and lovably docile of you CID... (and I mean that)

But when you tell your neighbors kid there's no Santa
He doesn't then become so distraught that he blows up a Planned Parenthood clinic 3 months later

But I do agree with you (on more of a default)
We cannot fight a battle and expect the enemy to not harden their defenses
War on religion only CREATES more nuts - it doesn't change their steel trap minds
It serves only to embolden them and drive them further to levels of insanity

[CID1990]

No, not really... not everyone.

I really do think that Carl Sagan was correct- that maybe there are higher forms of intelligence than our own, but those are not gods or God. Individually we are just the stuff of the cosmos, our atoms and molecules come together in an ordered way for an instant, and once we burn out, we return to inanimate matter.

Nothing-Something-Nothing

That's why I get defensive when people are ridiculed for their honestly held religious beliefs... because we all have different coping mechanisms for this realization ^^^ (if we ever even consider it at all)

Some of us accept it. I'm in that group and I think we are rare birds

The other end of the spectrum is people who cannot accept/comprehend it. The mere acceptance of it might drive them mad- there's your religion- there HAS to be some other reason- there HAS to be more to it than that.

So my defensiveness of/for Christians is not as altruistic or kind hearted as you might think..... it is actually probably condescending and paternalistic more than anything, and I'll freely admit that... like thinking it is UNCOOL to tell someone's 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus.

Belief in Jesus as the Son of God and belief in Santa are equally harmless to me (me, CID1990) and therefore I see no reason to have a crusade against them. And I totally get Chizstain's take on it- the 'brainwashing is murder' thingy... I get that

I just think the ridicule thing makes people assholes.

You're underestimating the inherent dangers and utter ridiculousness of certain "coping mechanisms."

You should note that maher doesn't take shots at eastern mysticism and others cuz they ain't run by assholes who fleece and make people do stupid ****. He's got a particular hard on for the Catholics because they rape children and promote bigotry. Same thing with the Muslim and fundamentalist assholes who desire a violent repressive theocracy.

Just admit they're some of the worst "interpretations", hence his ridicule.

He isn't that focused, D. He's as much of an asshole to the simple churchgoer as he is the televangelist who bilks little old ladies out of their money to avoid damnation

If he was just going after the Westboro and the Robertsons and the Islamic murder monkeys then we really wouldn't be having this discussion.

[D1B]

You're underestimating the inherent dangers and utter ridiculousness of certain "coping mechanisms."

You should note that maher doesn't take shots at eastern mysticism and others cuz they ain't run by assholes who fleece and make people do stupid ****. He's got a particular hard on for the Catholics because they rape children and promote bigotry. Same thing with the Muslim and fundamentalist assholes who desire a violent repressive theocracy.

Just admit they're some of the worst "interpretations", hence his ridicule.

He isn't that focused, D. He's as much of an asshole to the simple churchgoer as he is the televangelist who bilks little old ladies out of their money to avoid damnation

If he was just going after the Westboro and the Robertsons and the Islamic murder monkeys then we really wouldn't be having this discussion.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. He treats his christian show guests rather fairly and seems to have one on every show and many come back, which means they're comfortable. In his movie, he was rather levelheaded when dealing with his mother's faith.

Think it was Uranuses who wisely said the Phelps clan does all their own damage, so there is no need to go after them. The truly dangerous and arrogant cults are the ones who front as a loving caring org but behind the curtain they're raping chilren, buying lawmakers, promoting guns/violence/racism and brainwashing otherwise decent people.

I get it, you hate Maher. I feel your hatred for him (he is arrogant and smug) is overiding the fact that he is generally spot on with his positions on certain religions.

If these certain "interpretations" would follow the law and constitution and not try to force their beliefs on everyone, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This aside, that it's 2014 and people are still clinging to bronze age myth - this is appropriate fodder for ridicule. It's no different than flat earthers, geocentrism, cannibalizm, fascism and all the other idiotic belief systems appropriate for ridicule.

[kalm]

He isn't that focused, D. He's as much of an asshole to the simple churchgoer as he is the televangelist who bilks little old ladies out of their money to avoid damnation

If he was just going after the Westboro and the Robertsons and the Islamic murder monkeys then we really wouldn't be having this discussion.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. He treats his christian show guests rather fairly and seems to have one on every show and many come back, which means they're comfortable. In his movie, he was rather levelheaded when dealing with his mother's faith.

Think it was Uranuses who wisely said the Phelps clan does all their own damage, so there is no need to go after them. The truly dangerous and arrogant cults are the ones who front as a loving caring org but behind the curtain they're raping chilren, buying lawmakers, promoting guns/violence/racism and brainwashing otherwise decent people.

I get it, you hate Maher. I feel your hatred for him (he is arrogant and smug) is overiding the fact that he is generally spot on with his positions on certain religions.

If these certain "interpretations" would follow the law and constitution and not try to force their beliefs on everyone, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This aside, that it's 2014 and people are still clinging to bronze age myth - this is appropriate fodder for ridicule. It's no different than flat earthers, geocentrism, cannibalizm, fascism and all the other idiotic belief systems appropriate for ridicule.

They at least deserve ridicule than Lord of the Rings fans.

[Chizzang]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. He treats his christian show guests rather fairly and seems to have one on every show and many come back, which means they're comfortable. In his movie, he was rather levelheaded when dealing with his mother's faith.

Think it was Uranuses who wisely said the Phelps clan does all their own damage, so there is no need to go after them. The truly dangerous and arrogant cults are the ones who front as a loving caring org but behind the curtain they're raping chilren, buying lawmakers, promoting guns/violence/racism and brainwashing otherwise decent people.

I get it, you hate Maher. I feel your hatred for him (he is arrogant and smug) is overiding the fact that he is generally spot on with his positions on certain religions.

If these certain "interpretations" would follow the law and constitution and not try to force their beliefs on everyone, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This aside, that it's 2014 and people are still clinging to bronze age myth - this is appropriate fodder for ridicule. It's no different than flat earthers, geocentrism, cannibalizm, fascism and all the other idiotic belief systems appropriate for ridicule.

They at least deserve ridicule than Lord of the Rings fans.

No kidding / 100% agreed

[CID1990]

I feel your hatred for him (he is arrogant and smug)

You left out that he looks like the coonskin hat kid from The Christmas Story

I want to punch people who look like that in the nose


**but what is religion if NOT a coping mechanism? I didn't say that religious people are ALL nuts, I said that there's one end of the spectrum that's inhabited by the nuts. I can see ridiculing that crowd, except that they aren't all that numerous... which brings me back to the tempest in a teapot.

I was very familiar with Eric Rudolph's brother while Eric was on the run in western NC. This guy was certifiably crazy- and in 17 years of being a cop I only saw that kind of crazy twice- Rudolph, and this dude who used to protest at the abortion mill in Savannah Highway in Charleston. This is by no means a scientific survey, but cops tend to see ALL the crazies at least once. I saw it twice in a 17 year career. That suggests to me that the snake handlers and fire and brimstone Westboro nuts aren't very numerous. At least they aren't epidemic as Maher would suggest.

So it makes you wonder what the big deal is? How big of a demographic is this, really? I think Maher just enjoys picking on the Christians in general- and suggests that they are all cut from the same cloth. So in my book he's an asshole of the first order.

[D1B]

I feel your hatred for him (he is arrogant and smug)

You left out that he looks like the coonskin hat kid from The Christmas Story

I want to punch people who look like that in the nose

It's great to find common ground and understanding.

He looks like a fucking catcher's mitt.

[CID1990]

You left out that he looks like the coonskin hat kid from The Christmas Story

I want to punch people who look like that in the nose

It's great to find common ground and understanding.

He looks like a **** catcher's mitt.

You answered while I was editing

[D1B]

It's great to find common ground and understanding.

He looks like a **** catcher's mitt.

You answered while I was editing

Hitchens, Maher, Harris, D1B's ultimate goal is to expose the human intellectual and financial waste/consequences associated with religion. It aint the crazies who are dangerous, it's the billions of automatons who turn a blind eye to the crimes of their church or the billions advocating for the destruction of western civilization. Yes, the little catholic lady or muslim hookah maker are dangerous.

In addition to the brutal and abhorrent history of the big three that has cost humanity dearly, they continue to distract people from real problems and opportunities. Trillions of dollars are wasted on what is pretty much a scam. Our government shuts down charlatans left and right, but big religion is actually encouraged to fuck over people.

Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russian and American Conservative Movement are prime examples of what can go wrong with a populace conditioned by religion to acquiesce to authority and believe in fairy tales. The people who operated the ovens were christians. The people who watched and did nothing while their jewish neighbors were being herded into train cars were catholic/christians. The people ridiculing the poor in American are christian. The people who ran the gulags were christians - billions of people who don't know how to think for themselves. Billions of regular people. Billions of cowards.

[CID1990]

You answered while I was editing

Hitchens, Maher, Harris, D1B's ultimate goal is to expose the human intellectual and financial waste/consequences associated with religion. It aint the crazies who are dangerous, it's the billions of automatons who turn a blind eye to the crimes of their church or the billions advocating for the destruction of western civilization. Yes, the little catholic lady or muslim hookah maker are dangerous.

In addition to the brutal and abhorrent history of the big three that has cost humanity dearly, they continue to distract people from real problems and opportunities. Trillions of dollars are wasted on what is pretty much a scam. Our government shuts down charlatans left and right, but big religion is actually encouraged to **** over people.

Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russian and American Conservative Movement are prime examples of what can go wrong with a populace conditioned by religion to acquiesce to authority and believe in fairy tales. The people who operated the ovens were christians. The people who watched and did nothing while their jewish neighbors were being herded into train cars were catholic/christians. The people ridiculing the poor in American are christian. The people who ran the gulags were christians - billions of people who don't know how to think for themselves. Billions of regular people. Billions of cowards.

Your jab at American conservatives pretty much kills your credibility in this, but -

Human beings didn't do these things to each other before Christianity?

I'd say that brutality is much more a human trait than a Christian one.

[D1B]

Hitchens, Maher, Harris, D1B's ultimate goal is to expose the human intellectual and financial waste/consequences associated with religion. It aint the crazies who are dangerous, it's the billions of automatons who turn a blind eye to the crimes of their church or the billions advocating for the destruction of western civilization. Yes, the little catholic lady or muslim hookah maker are dangerous.

In addition to the brutal and abhorrent history of the big three that has cost humanity dearly, they continue to distract people from real problems and opportunities. Trillions of dollars are wasted on what is pretty much a scam. Our government shuts down charlatans left and right, but big religion is actually encouraged to **** over people.

Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russian and American Conservative Movement are prime examples of what can go wrong with a populace conditioned by religion to acquiesce to authority and believe in fairy tales. The people who operated the ovens were christians. The people who watched and did nothing while their jewish neighbors were being herded into train cars were catholic/christians. The people ridiculing the poor in American are christian. The people who ran the gulags were christians - billions of people who don't know how to think for themselves. Billions of regular people. Billions of cowards.

Your jab at American conservatives pretty much kills your credibility in this, but -

Human beings didn't do these things to each other before Christianity?

I'd say that brutality is much more a human trait than a Christian one.

Sorry I hurt your feelings. Lighten up Francis.

Religion is a catalyst that systemitizes brutality.

[Chizzang]

[



Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russian and American Conservative Movement are prime examples of what can go wrong with a populace conditioned by religion to acquiesce to authority and believe in fairy tales. The people who operated the ovens were christians. The people who watched and did nothing while their jewish neighbors were being herded into train cars were catholic/christians. The people ridiculing the poor in American are christian. The people who ran the gulags were christians - billions of people who don't know how to think for themselves. Billions of regular people. Billions of cowards.

This ^ paragraph interest me...
Because didn't like 50 million Russians die defeating Germany
as well as millions of Americans and British

and wasn't a HUGE percentage of those who died Christian..?

I'm no Christian apologist (of which this forum is well stocked) but your paragraph is lopsided a little

[Ibanez]

[



Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russian and American Conservative Movement are prime examples of what can go wrong with a populace conditioned by religion to acquiesce to authority and believe in fairy tales. The people who operated the ovens were christians. The people who watched and did nothing while their jewish neighbors were being herded into train cars were catholic/christians. The people ridiculing the poor in American are christian. The people who ran the gulags were christians - billions of people who don't know how to think for themselves. Billions of regular people. Billions of cowards.

This ^ paragraph interest me...
Because didn't like 50 million Russians die defeating Germany
as well as millions of Americans and British

and wasn't a HUGE percentage of those who died Christian..?

I'm no Christian apologist (of which this forum is well stocked) but your paragraph is lopsided a little

Not exactly. The USA and the UK each loss less than 500,000. Their total doesn't even reach 1 million. Total USSR military and civilian casualties are are about 25 million people. I think about 6 million were due to famine and disease alone, brought on by way.

Just by taking a guess, i'm sure more Christian soldiers died in World War 2 than no Christian.

[D1B]

[



Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russian and American Conservative Movement are prime examples of what can go wrong with a populace conditioned by religion to acquiesce to authority and believe in fairy tales. The people who operated the ovens were christians. The people who watched and did nothing while their jewish neighbors were being herded into train cars were catholic/christians. The people ridiculing the poor in American are christian. The people who ran the gulags were christians - billions of people who don't know how to think for themselves. Billions of regular people. Billions of cowards.

This ^ paragraph interest me...
Because didn't like 50 million Russians die defeating Germany
as well as millions of Americans and British

and wasn't a HUGE percentage of those who died Christian..?

I'm no Christian apologist (of which this forum is well stocked) but your paragraph is lopsided a little

Read a history book.

The russians fought only because they were attacked after they signed several agreements/pacts with Hitler They were one bad decision from being a 4th axis power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2% ... Axis_talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Americans were dragged into the war because we were attacked by Japan, not becasue of some noble cause to end the holocaust, even though we knew what was going on.

[Chizzang]

This ^ paragraph interest me...
Because didn't like 50 million Russians die defeating Germany
as well as millions of Americans and British

and wasn't a HUGE percentage of those who died Christian..?

I'm no Christian apologist (of which this forum is well stocked) but your paragraph is lopsided a little

Read a history book.

The russians fought only because they were attacked after they signed several agreements/pacts with Hitler They were one bad decision from being a 4th axis power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2% ... Axis_talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Americans were dragged into the war because we were attacked by Japan, not becasue of some noble cause to end the holocaust, even though we knew what was going on.

I didn't mention any reasons...
I simply pointed out that Christians died by the millions defeating the Nazi's
Without those millions of Christians (regardless of their reasons) we might be speaking German

[D1B]

Read a history book.

The russians fought only because they were attacked after they signed several agreements/pacts with Hitler They were one bad decision from being a 4th axis power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2% ... Axis_talks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Americans were dragged into the war because we were attacked by Japan, not becasue of some noble cause to end the holocaust, even though we knew what was going on.

I didn't mention any reasons...
I simply pointed out that Christians died by the millions defeating the Nazi's
Without those millions of Christians (regardless of their reasons) we might be speaking German

Reasons are important. And the christian god commanded Thou Shalt Not Kill.

[Chizzang]

I didn't mention any reasons...
I simply pointed out that Christians died by the millions defeating the Nazi's
Without those millions of Christians (regardless of their reasons) we might be speaking German

Reasons are important. And the christian god commanded Thou Shalt Not Kill.

'

We don't get to argue much anymore... I miss it

[SeattleGriz]

I didn't mention any reasons...
I simply pointed out that Christians died by the millions defeating the Nazi's
Without those millions of Christians (regardless of their reasons) we might be speaking German

Reasons are important. And the christian god commanded Thou Shalt Not Kill.

For all your talk of being educated on the subject, you still miss sorely on this on. The correct Hebrew translation is "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference.

[D1B]

Reasons are important. And the christian god commanded Thou Shalt Not Kill.

For all your talk of being educated on the subject, you still miss sorely on this on. The correct Hebrew translation is "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm gonna return all my misprinted bibles and head down to city hall with a chisell and hammer and correct the monument there, and a hundred thousand other places too.

[Chizzang]

Reasons are important. And the christian god commanded Thou Shalt Not Kill.

For all your talk of being educated on the subject, you still miss sorely on this on. The correct Hebrew translation is "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference.

and to Sin means to misunderstand the meaning or "miss the mark"
Poorly translated indeed / Hell and all the other fabrications

I argue NOBODY in history is as mis-quoted and misunderstood as Jesus
He was far closer to a Buddhist hippie than the son of God and all the late translations work very hard to move him into the GOD arena and away from the pleasant Hippie arena

[SeattleGriz]

For all your talk of being educated on the subject, you still miss sorely on this on. The correct Hebrew translation is "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm gonna return all my misprinted bibles and head down to city hall with a chisell and hammer and correct the monument there, and a hundred thousand other places too.

And D1B misses the point again, how common. The difference is the book you hate so dearly, the Bible, clearly differentiates between the various forms of killing and murder. So in the context of your war example, that killing was justified. Killing someone to protect yourself is justified as well.

[D1B]

Thanks for the heads up. I'm gonna return all my misprinted bibles and head down to city hall with a chisell and hammer and correct the monument there, and a hundred thousand other places too.

And D1B misses the point again, how common. The difference is the book you hate so dearly, the Bible, clearly differentiates between the various forms of killing and murder. So in the context of your war example, that killing was justified. Killing someone to protect yourself is justified as well.

Tell that to the tens of thousands of carpet bombing victims in Dresden or Viet Nam.

[kalm]

For all your talk of being educated on the subject, you still miss sorely on this on. The correct Hebrew translation is "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference.

and to Sin means to misunderstand the meaning or "miss the mark"
Poorly translated indeed / Hell and all the other fabrications

I argue NOBODY in history is as mis-quoted and misunderstood as Jesus
He was far closer to a Buddhist hippie than the son of God and all the late translations work very hard to move him into the GOD arena and away from the pleasant Hippie arena

Jesus would shop at Whole Foods.

[Chizzang]

and to Sin means to misunderstand the meaning or "miss the mark"
Poorly translated indeed / Hell and all the other fabrications

I argue NOBODY in history is as mis-quoted and misunderstood as Jesus
He was far closer to a Buddhist hippie than the son of God and all the late translations work very hard to move him into the GOD arena and away from the pleasant Hippie arena

Jesus would shop at Whole Foods.

Clearly we're on the same page here...

[CID1990]