Angry, Murdering, God

[BlueHen86]

I think God is best thought of as a universal, cosmic flow. Life is better if you try live with the current of that flow rather than trudge against it. An unselfish, caring person who tries to live for a greater good is a happy person. A person who lives life with a take whatever I can get, do unto other before they do unto me philosophy will, inevitably, be a miserable person.

Maybe the concept of heaven and hell actually refers to life here on earth and the wisdom contained within religious texts are simply guides on how to live a happy, content life. Wouldn't that be something?

(Cue JJ to belittle this and call it an oversimplification)

Agree. A very pragmatic approach.

[YoUDeeMan]

You are not getting it. God may sit around and watch a girl get raped, but God already set that in motion a long time ago. God made us...and when he made us he knew each of our decisions before we made them. Our decisions were preordained, by God. The way he built us determined our decisions. If God had made us differently, we'd have made different decisions.

There is no way around it...if God is all powerful and all knowing, then we can't make a decision that God didn't set us up to make. Nothing we do is different than God's original plan. That is not free will. Rape was in God's plan...he allowed it. In fact, God created rape.

On what authority are you basing that God has made all our decisions for us?

Funny how you say God can do all, but then put Him in a box to make your argument. Your two versions of God are not congruent.

If God has all the power you say He does, surely He has the power to allow freewill.

If we have the power to decide things, then God isn't all powerful because we have the independent power, outside of his control, to make choices. If it is our power, then it can't be his power.

He is all powerful or not.

[Ibanez]

On what authority are you basing that God has made all our decisions for us?

Funny how you say God can do all, but then put Him in a box to make your argument. Your two versions of God are not congruent.

If God has all the power you say He does, surely He has the power to allow freewill.

If we have the power to decide things, then God isn't all powerful because we have the independent power, outside of his control, to make choices. If it is our power, then it can't be his power.

He is all powerful or not.

He's given us the power to have power over him.

[Chizzang]

I think God is best thought of as a universal, cosmic flow. Life is better if you try live with the current of that flow rather than trudge against it. An unselfish, caring person who tries to live for a greater good is a happy person. A person who lives life with a take whatever I can get, do unto other before they do unto me philosophy will, inevitably, be a miserable person.

Maybe the concept of heaven and hell actually refers to life here on earth and the wisdom contained within religious texts are simply guides on how to live a happy, content life. Wouldn't that be something?

Pure Gold ^ Sun Coast PURE GOLD

[AZGrizFan]

I think God is best thought of as a universal, cosmic flow. Life is better if you try live with the current of that flow rather than trudge against it. An unselfish, caring person who tries to live for a greater good is a happy person. A person who lives life with a take whatever I can get, do unto other before they do unto me philosophy will, inevitably, be a miserable person.

Maybe the concept of heaven and hell actually refers to life here on earth and the wisdom contained within religious texts are simply guides on how to live a happy, content life. Wouldn't that be something?

Pure Gold ^ Sun Coast PURE GOLD

Agreed.

[SeattleGriz]

On what authority are you basing that God has made all our decisions for us?

Funny how you say God can do all, but then put Him in a box to make your argument. Your two versions of God are not congruent.

If God has all the power you say He does, surely He has the power to allow freewill.

If we have the power to decide things, then God isn't all powerful because we have the independent power, outside of his control, to make choices. If it is our power, then it can't be his power.

He is all powerful or not.

How is having the power to make choices taking away Gods power? We obviously see differently on the topic, but I fail to see your logic on this one.

[SeattleGriz]

Oh sure, NOW you pull out the Intelligent Design card!

What is the alternative?

If we are to follow the bible then God created us. God created earth. God created the sun days after he created light. He can do anything! Including predetermine our movements. He is all knowing and in creating us he knew exactly what we would do. Therefore, do we really have a choice?

How is God knowing what we are going to do taking away our choice? Just because God knows does not mean our choice has been predetermined.

[Ibanez]

What is the alternative?

If we are to follow the bible then God created us. God created earth. God created the sun days after he created light. He can do anything! Including predetermine our movements. He is all knowing and in creating us he knew exactly what we would do. Therefore, do we really have a choice?

How is God knowing what we are going to do taking away our choice? Just because God knows does not mean our choice has been predetermined.

If I'm not predetermined to do something, than how can knowledge of that exist?

[D1B]

If we have the power to decide things, then God isn't all powerful because we have the independent power, outside of his control, to make choices. If it is our power, then it can't be his power.

He is all powerful or not.

How is having the power to make choices taking away Gods power? We obviously see differently on the topic, but I fail to see your logic on this one.

Alright, we've established and you admitted you don't understand it. Now shut the fuck up you pain in the ass moron and move on.

[Grizalltheway]

I think God is best thought of as a universal, cosmic flow. Life is better if you try live with the current of that flow rather than trudge against it. An unselfish, caring person who tries to live for a greater good is a happy person. A person who lives life with a take whatever I can get, do unto other before they do unto me philosophy will, inevitably, be a miserable person.

Maybe the concept of heaven and hell actually refers to life here on earth and the wisdom contained within religious texts are simply guides on how to live a happy, content life. Wouldn't that be something?

Sounds great in theory, but it doesn't leave much room for demonizing people different from you. You know, one of the main functions of religion.

[D1B]

I think God is best thought of as a universal, cosmic flow. Life is better if you try live with the current of that flow rather than trudge against it. An unselfish, caring person who tries to live for a greater good is a happy person. A person who lives life with a take whatever I can get, do unto other before they do unto me philosophy will, inevitably, be a miserable person.

Maybe the concept of heaven and hell actually refers to life here on earth and the wisdom contained within religious texts are simply guides on how to live a happy, content life. Wouldn't that be something?

Pure Gold ^ Sun Coast PURE GOLD

Except that biblical/christian texts are hardly guides for living a happy and content life.

[SeattleGriz]

How is having the power to make choices taking away Gods power? We obviously see differently on the topic, but I fail to see your logic on this one.

Alright, we've established and you admitted you don't understand it. Now shut the fuck up you pain in the ass moron and move on.

You've established jack and you know it. Once again trying to gloss over a topic you cannot prove.

[Ibanez]

Alright, we've established and you admitted you don't understand it. Now shut the fuck up you pain in the ass moron and move on.

You've established jack and you know it. Once again trying to gloss over a topic you cannot prove.

You can't prove it either.

[SeattleGriz]

How is God knowing what we are going to do taking away our choice? Just because God knows does not mean our choice has been predetermined.

If I'm not predetermined to do something, than how can knowledge of that exist?

Where does it say God predetermined our lives? Have you ever thought that God may not be bound by our linear timelines. God, if not bound by linear time could then in the past, present and future all at once. That's one way to know all.

[SeattleGriz]

You've established jack and you know it. Once again trying to gloss over a topic you cannot prove.

You can't prove it either.

Exactly.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Pure Gold ^ Sun Coast PURE GOLD

Except that biblical/christian texts are hardly guides for living a happy and content life.

They can be if you carve out all the bullshit and focus primarily on the words attributed to Jesus - the Sermon on the Mount stuff as an example.

[Ibanez]

If I'm not predetermined to do something, than how can knowledge of that exist?

Where does it say God predetermined our lives? Have you ever thought that God may not be bound by our linear timelines. God, if not bound by linear time could then in the past, present and future all at once. That's one way to know all.

He is still our creator. He knows the future, he knows that your son, in 4 months, is going to throw his toy. It's not free will. It was destined to happen.

This comes down to one of two things:

God is our creator, he set everything in motion and then lets it go. He has zero involvement or impact on the world. If you believe in this, then I can understand the possibility of free will.

OR

God is our creator and is active in our world. If so, his actions take away from the free will. The bible clearly states this. He took away any "free will" from Mary. He took it away from Judas. If you're a Christian then you believe in this.

[D1B]

Where does it say God predetermined our lives? Have you ever thought that God may not be bound by our linear timelines. God, if not bound by linear time could then in the past, present and future all at once. That's one way to know all.

He is still our creator. He knows the future, he knows that your son, in 4 months, is going to throw his toy. It's not free will. It was destined to happen.

This comes down to one of two things:

God is our creator, he set everything in motion and then lets it go. He has zero involvement or impact on the world. If you believe in this, then I can understand the possibility of free will.

OR

God is our creator and is active in our world. If so, his actions take away from the free will. The bible clearly states this. He took away any "free will" from Mary. He took it away from Judas. If you're a Christian then you believe in this.

Free will is red herring. How is "worship me or suffer for eternity" free will?

SG is a moron. Another delusional Christian.

[YoUDeeMan]

If I'm not predetermined to do something, than how can knowledge of that exist?

Where does it say God predetermined our lives? Have you ever thought that God may not be bound by our linear timelines. God, if not bound by linear time could then in the past, present and future all at once. That's one way to know all.

Then God knew exactly what he built when he built man.

But you seem to forget that God, and no one else, put the ingredients in Man.

Can we choose to be as powerful as God? Can we choose to change into a butterfly? Right now, those things aren't options for man. In other words, God made a decision to limit our menu choices....a CHOICE of his...not our choice. In fact, God created the menu, because we certainly were not in a position to put in our own ingredients and capabilities. So, what did God put on his menu? The choice to rape your daughter. The choice to saw off another man's head. Notice God didn't give us a choice to cut off his head. Apparently, God thought he was above it all, but he let's little girls suffer (not by their choice either, oddly enough).

Sorry SG, God set up the playground and gave us the capability to rape our own kin, to hack people to death, and to do all sorts of bad things to other people and things. And when he made us, he knew exactly what we would do...EXACTLY. Each and every one of us, each and every single decision along the way was already foreseen BEFORE we were brought into existence...and those decisions we directly related to the way he made us. If he had made us with a few different DNA molecules, we would be more compassionate and not harm others. But, apparently, that would have been boring to God...so he, knowing EXACTLY what every person would do, knowing EXACTLY how everyone would react to different stimuli, still brought us into existence with the exact parts that we needed to make those "choices", even though he made us knowing the choices we'd make (and all the resulting atrocities, and pain associated with them all). See, we don't have choice, because we are incapable of surprising him (he's all knowing).

Of course, God added love...you know, of Him, or we wouldn't be able to sit by his side.

It is absurd to believe God is all knowing and all powerful while also believing man has choice.

[GannonFan]

It is absurd to believe God is all knowing and all powerful while also believing man has choice.

You're confusing knowing what will happen versus causing those things to happen. The free choice for man is real - you can decide what you do, and you're not genetically programmed to make those choices. That's the free part. The idea that God already knew before creating us what we would do and choose doesn't pre-empt the free choice thing - it just means he knew what we would do. That's all.

[YoUDeeMan]

It is absurd to believe God is all knowing and all powerful while also believing man has choice.

You're confusing knowing what will happen versus causing those things to happen. The free choice for man is real - you can decide what you do, and you're not genetically programmed to make those choices. That's the free part. The idea that God already knew before creating us what we would do and choose doesn't pre-empt the free choice thing - it just means he knew what we would do. That's all.

C'mon GF, if I put a chocolate cake in the oven, it will come out as a chocolate cake.

You are assuming that God isn't powerful enough to understand every single decision, and every single interaction, throughout all time, of those that he built, and when he first decided to make/build us. He knew we would kill each other...it was in our blood...and God put that in our blood. Man didn't invent murder...we could not have murdered if God didn't first put that ability in us. We can't kill God, but we can kill each other. That is not by choice...that is by design...His design. If God wanted a slightly different outcome, he would have changed an atom or two, changed the wind, changed or eliminated the amoebas and diseases. God, if all powerful, knows exactly what each of our "decisions" will be...we are incapable of making a decision that he did not know we would make when he first made man, and if He doesn't like any of those decisions, then he should have made us differently because He is responsible for our capabilities. He built us, every single one of us, knowing exactly how we would react to His world from the beginning to the end.

You might say that we have choice, but there is no choice because God made us, and he doesn't make errors, specifically knowing what "choice" we would each make at every single second of each day. If he didn't make us exactly as we are, and we actually have a choice, we would act in a way that God did not intend/foresee, then God is not all powerful, nor is he responsible for all that occurs. That is absurd when someone says God is all powerful and all knowing.

[GannonFan]

You're confusing knowing what will happen versus causing those things to happen. The free choice for man is real - you can decide what you do, and you're not genetically programmed to make those choices. That's the free part. The idea that God already knew before creating us what we would do and choose doesn't pre-empt the free choice thing - it just means he knew what we would do. That's all.

C'mon GF, if I put a chocolate cake in the oven, it will come out as a chocolate cake.

You are assuming that God isn't powerful enough to understand every single decision, and every single interaction, throughout all time, of those that he built, and when he first decided to make/build us. He knew we would kill each other...it was in our blood...and God put that in our blood. Man didn't invent murder...we could not have murdered if God didn't first put that ability in us. We can't kill God, but we can kill each other. That is not by choice...that is by design...His design. If God wanted a slightly different outcome, he would have changed an atom or two, changed the wind, changed or eliminated the amoebas and diseases. God, if all powerful, knows exactly what each of our "decisions" will be...we are incapable of making a decision that he did not know we would make when he first made man, and if He doesn't like any of those decisions, then he should have made us differently because He is responsible for our capabilities. He built us, every single one of us, knowing exactly how we would react to His world from the beginning to the end.

You might say that we have choice, but there is no choice because God made us, and he doesn't make errors, specifically knowing what "choice" we would each make at every single second of each day. If he didn't make us exactly as we are, and we actually have a choice, we would act in a way that God did not intend/foresee, then God is not all powerful, nor is he responsible for all that occurs. That is absurd when someone says God is all powerful and all knowing.

Again, he knew what choices we would make the moment he made us, but that doesn't mean that the choice wasn't our's to make. Him knowing what we would do at the moment we existed isn't the same as not having a free choice to make.

And personally, I like to think we are better than chocolate cake.

[CID1990]

That's different than what Chitzang said. He said Maher takes issue with the Bible. Or are you suggesting that there is some new Christian sect out there that has eschewed the Bible as the source text of the religion? I'd like to meet them, if you have. There's a bible up there on the podium of the First Fudgepacker Baptist Church of Jesus Christ and Rainbows. Are they fundamentalists?

Try to keep up, Klam.

I wasn't responding to His post, was I?

No, but I was. I think you're lost again, old man.

[JoltinJoe]

You're confusing knowing what will happen versus causing those things to happen. The free choice for man is real - you can decide what you do, and you're not genetically programmed to make those choices. That's the free part. The idea that God already knew before creating us what we would do and choose doesn't pre-empt the free choice thing - it just means he knew what we would do. That's all.

C'mon GF, if I put a chocolate cake in the oven, it will come out as a chocolate cake.

You are assuming that God isn't powerful enough to understand every single decision, and every single interaction, throughout all time, of those that he built, and when he first decided to make/build us. He knew we would kill each other...it was in our blood...and God put that in our blood. Man didn't invent murder...we could not have murdered if God didn't first put that ability in us. We can't kill God, but we can kill each other. That is not by choice...that is by design...His design. If God wanted a slightly different outcome, he would have changed an atom or two, changed the wind, changed or eliminated the amoebas and diseases. God, if all powerful, knows exactly what each of our "decisions" will be...we are incapable of making a decision that he did not know we would make when he first made man, and if He doesn't like any of those decisions, then he should have made us differently because He is responsible for our capabilities. He built us, every single one of us, knowing exactly how we would react to His world from the beginning to the end.

You might say that we have choice, but there is no choice because God made us, and he doesn't make errors, specifically knowing what "choice" we would each make at every single second of each day. If he didn't make us exactly as we are, and we actually have a choice, we would act in a way that God did not intend/foresee, then God is not all powerful, nor is he responsible for all that occurs. That is absurd when someone says God is all powerful and all knowing.

F

[Chizzang]

Pure Gold ^ Sun Coast PURE GOLD

Except that biblical/christian texts are hardly guides for living a happy and content life.

I've already stated on this forum (a few dozen times) that the closer people are to the Bible the farther they are away from God...
Of course that's just my opinion