THE BIG EAST CONFERENCE

[clenz]

Keep ignoring that 4th best SoS statistic too. Funny that you look at a play-in game to somehow justify that the ACC is better than the Big East this year.

Should we use the St. John's home loss last night, in front of just over 1k people, to Robert Morris, in a game where the Johnnies were down by 26 at one point, as another example?

Come on, let's use common sense - the ACC is significantly better than the Big East. Are you honestly saying that UVA, Syracuse, Duke, North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Clemson, and North Carolina St don't trump nova, Creighton, Providence, and Xavier? The best thing about the Big East is that their worst team is better than the ACC's worst team. But at the top, it's no contest, and the top is where things ultimately matter.

By conference title/FF breakdown. Old conference alignment comes first...current comes after the /

ACC: 5/6 titles, 6/7 title game appearances, 9/11 Final Fours, 4/5 different schools in F4
B1G: 0/0 titles, 5/5 title game appearances, 9/9 Final Fours, 5/5 different schools in F4
Big 12: 1/1 title, 3/3 title game appearances, 8/9 Final Fours, 4/5 different schools in F4
Pac 12: 0/0 titles, 1/1 title game appearance, 3/3 Final Fours, 1/1 school in F4
SEC: 3/3 titles, 3/3 title game appearances, 5/5 Final Fours, 3/3 schools in F4
Big East: 4/0 titles, 4/2 title games, 10/5 Final Fours, 5/4 schools in F4
AAC: (obviously 0 in contemp.) 3 titles, 4 title games, 7 Final Fours, 3 schools in F4

next year the ACC adds at least one Final Four. B1G adds 1 title, 1 TG appearance, 2 Final Fours, and 1 school. The AAC loses 1 title, 1 TG appearance, 3 Final Fours, and 1 school.

The Big East is a shell that will have a lot to prove...especially if Creighton and Nova don't both make deep runs.

[grizzaholic]

[vutomcat]

Found this site while reading up on the tournament. Interesting read for Nova fans and the haters can post on too.

14 teams pass at least one champ test…but only Villanova passes them all

Posted on March 11, 2014 by ptiernan inShare.

The last 13 champs have possessed these characteristics:
■A one, two or three seed
■Member of a Power conference: ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-10 or SEC
■Either went to the previous year’s dance or have an All-American
■Led by a coach with more than five tourney trips and at least one Elite Eight run
■Averaging more than 73 points per game
■Allowing fewer than 73 points per game
■An average scoring margin of at least seven points per game
■A schedule among the 75 strongest in the country

The teams that meet all these criteria include: Villanova, Arizona, Duke, Michigan, Kansas, Wisconsin and North Carolina. Here’s the legend…and then the breakdown:
■Orange boxes show teams meeting all criteria
■Light red boxes show where teams missed the criteria
■Purple boxes show teams who don’t deserve their AP top 20 ranking according to KenPom efficiency statistics.



Of the seven teams that possess all eight basic champ credentials, Wisconsin and North Carolina are in the greatest jeopardy of losing stats champ status. The Badgers remain precariously close to the 73-point threshold. And the Tar Heels are currently projected as a four seed in Joe Lunardi’s latest bracket.

In a sign of how difficult it is to peg this year’s top teams, there are now seven squads in the AP top 20 whom efficiency numbers suggest are undeserving of their lofty rating. San Diego State, North Carolina, Iowa State, Oklahoma, St. Louis, Memphis and New Mexico don’t have KenPom Pythag values among the top 20 teams in the country. Advanced stats suggest that Tennessee (13), Ohio State (14), VCU (15), Michigan State (16), Iowa (17), Oklahoma State (19) and Pitt (20) are the better teams.

Speaking of possession-based data, there are 10 teams that pass at least one of the two efficiency champ tests. If you’ll recall, I use the KenPom’s ratings of the past champions to perform two tests:
1.I compare the raw offensive and defensive efficiency numbers (based on points-per-100-possessions) of this year’s teams with the thresholds set by the last 11 champions.
2.I compare the offensive and defensive efficiency ratings of this year’s teams with the ratings of those same champions.

Since 2003, the worst a champion has performed on offense in terms of points per 100 possessions is 112.2. That number belongs to last year’s champ Louisville. And the worst a champ has been ranked on offense is 18th (both Louisville and UConn in 2013). On defense, the most points a champ has allowed per 100 possessions is 95.4; that would be North Carolina in 2009—and they were ranked 49th in the country (of course, there offensive efficiency was through the roof).

Here are the seven teams with an OE above 112.2 and a DE below 95.4:
■Wichita State
■Florida
■Villanova
■Louisville
■Virginia
■Syracuse
■Arizona

This is the same list of teams as last year—with one exception. Kansas saw it’s DE jump up to 96.1 and thus missed out on the defensive threshold.

When it comes to efficiency test #2, the rankings comparison, there are xx teams that own top-18 offensive and top-49 defensive rankings. They are:
■Kansas
■Wichita State
■Florida
■Villanova
■Louisville
■Tennessee (say what?)
■Michigan State

Wisconsin and UCLA dropped off the efficiency ratings list and were replaced by Tennessee and Michigan State. What the heck is with these Vols? They’ve come out of nowhere to become the 13th most efficient team in the country. That’s why I’ve pegged them as an Upsetter in my Pulse Check.

Overall, between the basic, raw and ranked efficiency tests, there are 14 champion candidates. Only Villanova appears on all these lists. Here’s the breakdown, by number of lists made:
1.Villanova (BA, RAW, RK)
2.Arizona (BA, RAW)
Kansas (BA, RK)
Florida (RAW, RK)
Wichita State (RAW, RK)
Louisville (RAW, RK)
3.Duke (BA)
Wisconsin (BA)
Michigan (BA)
North Carolina (BA)
Virginia (RAW)
Syracuse (RAW)
Tennessee (RK)
Michigan State (RK)

[grizzaholic]

And just like the kid in my previous post, you will get smacked out early.

[clenz]

I don't think anyone here has "doubted" or been a "hater" of Nova...just your blind homerism to all things that is Big East/east coast basketball.

[tribe_pride]

Agree with clenz. Most people (there are a few exceptions) agree that Nova is very good. It's just that they haven't beaten anyone who is very strong since early in the season and that while the Big East does not have the horrible teams that other conferences have, the amount of top teams and teams that should make it to the NCAA tournament are small in number.

[GannonFan]

Agree with clenz. Most people (there are a few exceptions) agree that Nova is very good. It's just that they haven't beaten anyone who is very strong since early in the season and that while the Big East does not have the horrible teams that other conferences have, the amount of top teams and teams that should make it to the NCAA tournament are small in number.

Agreed. Most of us were diehard Big East supporters for years and were on these boards touting the superiority of the Big East, that is, until it fell apart last year and is now just the Big East in name only. nova clearly is a team that has deserved their seeding, but that doesn't mean their resume is without holes in it (just like every other good team out there too).

[vutomcat]

Great to hear we are all fans or supporters ( with a few exceptions). What did you think of the article?

[GannonFan]

Great to hear we are all fans or supporters ( with a few exceptions). What did you think of the article?

I stopped reading when the article said the Big East was still a power conference.

[clenz]

vu...are you sure I'm the one that isn't capable of holding an intelligent conversation?

You don't actually answer any questions or bring anything to this other than

"HATER" or "Well, what do you think of Nova" or "RPI"

Do you think the MWC was the best conference last season?

[Seahawks08]

Should we use the St. John's home loss last night, in front of just over 1k people, to Robert Morris, in a game where the Johnnies were down by 26 at one point, as another example?

Come on, let's use common sense - the ACC is significantly better than the Big East. Are you honestly saying that UVA, Syracuse, Duke, North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Clemson, and North Carolina St don't trump nova, Creighton, Providence, and Xavier? The best thing about the Big East is that their worst team is better than the ACC's worst team. But at the top, it's no contest, and the top is where things ultimately matter.

I knew that you guys would bring up St. Johns. And quite frankly, I don't think St. Johns cared enough to play that game. It's like what happened to Kentucky last year. Teams sometimes don't care that much since the NIT means nothing to them. Therefore, I take the results from the NIT and CBI with a grain of salt.

Your second paragraph is the key one. It's spot on, but I will continue to argue the conference as a whole is better since the top teams play the bottom teams and that matters for records. For example, if the Big East had the AAC's bottom five teams in its conference this year, most likely St. Johns and probably Marquette would make the NCAA tournament.

[GannonFan]

Should we use the St. John's home loss last night, in front of just over 1k people, to Robert Morris, in a game where the Johnnies were down by 26 at one point, as another example?

Come on, let's use common sense - the ACC is significantly better than the Big East. Are you honestly saying that UVA, Syracuse, Duke, North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Clemson, and North Carolina St don't trump nova, Creighton, Providence, and Xavier? The best thing about the Big East is that their worst team is better than the ACC's worst team. But at the top, it's no contest, and the top is where things ultimately matter.

I knew that you guys would bring up St. Johns. And quite frankly, I don't think St. Johns cared enough to play that game. It's like what happened to Kentucky last year. Teams sometimes don't care that much since the NIT means nothing to them. Therefore, I take the results from the NIT and CBI with a grain of salt.

Your second paragraph is the key one. It's spot on, but I will continue to argue the conference as a whole is better since the top teams play the bottom teams and that matters for records. For example, if the Big East had the AAC's bottom five teams in its conference this year, most likely St. Johns and probably Marquette would make the NCAA tournament.

Then expand and get bigger. The Big East is too small right now and that hurts the top teams. There just isn't enough critical mass at the top to make it into a power conference right now. The ACC and Big 10 and others have the advantage that their top 5-6 teams routinely play each other and therefore they get that many more big time games. The Big East had nova and Creighton so they had two big time games this year. The other conferences had that many in a week. It's like how people question Wichita State - it's not because people want to hate on the Shockers, but they played in a conference where the top of the conference was pretty light other than them.

I'm not sure what the Big East can do at this point. The ACC and Big 12 get even stronger next year after raiding the AAC (which did have a nice core group of teams at the top this year, hence why the AAC was probably better than the Big East this year). Raiding the A10 would seem to be the only play they have, and I'm not sure you can get enough programs from the A10 that are routinely good enough to make a difference, and nova would still not agree to any other Philly team joining them in a conference.

[BlueHen86]

vu...are you sure I'm the one that isn't capable of holding an intelligent conversation?

You don't actually answer any questions or bring anything to this other than

"HATER" or "Well, what do you think of Nova" or "RPI"

Do you think the MWC was the best conference last season?

You forgot to mention the use of the emoticon.

[BlueHen86]

Great to hear we are all fans or supporters ( with a few exceptions). What did you think of the article?

ESPN did something similar yesterday, only with a different set of criteria. They had Florida winning it all.

[vutomcat]

t

I knew that you guys would bring up St. Johns. And quite frankly, I don't think St. Johns cared enough to play that game. It's like what happened to Kentucky last year. Teams sometimes don't care that much since the NIT means nothing to them. Therefore, I take the results from the NIT and CBI with a grain of salt.

Your second paragraph is the key one. It's spot on, but I will continue to argue the conference as a whole is better since the top teams play the bottom teams and that matters for records. For example, if the Big East had the AAC's bottom five teams in its conference this year, most likely St. Johns and probably Marquette would make the NCAA tournament.

Then expand and get bigger. The Big East is too small right now and that hurts the top teams. There just isn't enough critical mass at the top to make it into a power conference right now. The ACC and Big 10 and others have the advantage that their top 5-6 teams routinely play each other and therefore they get that many more big time games. The Big East had nova and Creighton so they had two big time games this year. The other conferences had that many in a week. It's like how people question Wichita State - it's not because people want to hate on the Shockers, but they played in a conference where the top of the conference was pretty light other than them.

I'm not sure what the Big East can do at this point. The ACC and Big 12 get even stronger next year after raiding the AAC (which did have a nice core group of teams at the top this year, hence why the AAC was probably better than the Big East this year). Raiding the A10 would seem to be the only play they have, and I'm not sure you can get enough programs from the A10 that are routinely good enough to make a difference, and nova would still not agree to any other Philly team joining them in a conference.

This is the biggest challenge for the Big East. How can they expand and still add quality. I agree withh Gannon that Villanova will not agree on St Joe's or Temple.

[vutomcat]

Great to hear we are all fans or supporters ( with a few exceptions). What did you think of the article?

ESPN did something similar yesterday, only with a different set of criteria. They had Florida winning it all.

I had not seen anything previously from the author of the column I posted. Thought maybe one of our posters had seen something from him.

[vutomcat]

[quote="clenz"]vu...are you sure I'm the one that isn't capable of holding an intelligent conversation?

"Res ipsa loquitor"

[clenz]

vu...are you sure I'm the one that isn't capable of holding an intelligent conversation?

"Res ipsa loquitor"

Translation:

I don't actually want to talk about the conference anymore because I've been completely owned by multiple posters...So instead I'll post any random thing to deflect from the topic at hand.

[SDHornet]

[clenz]

There's no popcorn to be had anymore.

I, and a couple others, have given extremely concrete answers with facts and reasoning behind our assertions of the Big East Conference. The only thing tomkitty has come back with for the last couple days is a bunch of nothing.

Once he starts adding something of value to this thread regarding the discussion of the fact his opinion of Big East basketball, Temple basketball, ACC/B10/AAC/A10 basketball than we can starting using facts, figures, and reason in this thread again. Until then...party on, Wayne!

[SDHornet]

I'm just enjoying the view big man.

[clenz]

I'm just enjoying the view big man.

It's amazing that the other Big East homer, Seahawks08, is on our (Bluehen86, myself, and whoever else) but yet tomcat continues to hold out with overwhelming evidence against him.

He'll continue to avoid the entire topic but find some random article talking about VU and their chances to win the title...which isn't the topic that's been discussed.

Also, I struggle to take VU completely seriously with the way Creighton shit stomped them...twice. Once I could understand. Twice isn't an accident.

FWIW, before tomcat has an aneurism, I have Nova in the S16 in my bracket before bowing out to Iowa State.

[Seahawks08]

Then expand and get bigger. The Big East is too small right now and that hurts the top teams. There just isn't enough critical mass at the top to make it into a power conference right now. The ACC and Big 10 and others have the advantage that their top 5-6 teams routinely play each other and therefore they get that many more big time games. The Big East had nova and Creighton so they had two big time games this year. The other conferences had that many in a week. It's like how people question Wichita State - it's not because people want to hate on the Shockers, but they played in a conference where the top of the conference was pretty light other than them.

I'm not sure what the Big East can do at this point. The ACC and Big 12 get even stronger next year after raiding the AAC (which did have a nice core group of teams at the top this year, hence why the AAC was probably better than the Big East this year). Raiding the A10 would seem to be the only play they have, and I'm not sure you can get enough programs from the A10 that are routinely good enough to make a difference, and nova would still not agree to any other Philly team joining them in a conference.

I know it would be tricky, but the only way to get the Big East somewhat back to the old days is to bring in UCONN and Cincinnati. I don't know how they would do it to make sure both those schools stay due to their football programs (which would have to either stay in the AAC or go independent). Maybe set the exit fee astronomically high? In my universe, I target those programs and only them to get the league to 12.

[clenz]

Then expand and get bigger. The Big East is too small right now and that hurts the top teams. There just isn't enough critical mass at the top to make it into a power conference right now. The ACC and Big 10 and others have the advantage that their top 5-6 teams routinely play each other and therefore they get that many more big time games. The Big East had nova and Creighton so they had two big time games this year. The other conferences had that many in a week. It's like how people question Wichita State - it's not because people want to hate on the Shockers, but they played in a conference where the top of the conference was pretty light other than them.

I'm not sure what the Big East can do at this point. The ACC and Big 12 get even stronger next year after raiding the AAC (which did have a nice core group of teams at the top this year, hence why the AAC was probably better than the Big East this year). Raiding the A10 would seem to be the only play they have, and I'm not sure you can get enough programs from the A10 that are routinely good enough to make a difference, and nova would still not agree to any other Philly team joining them in a conference.

I know it would be tricky, but the only way to get the Big East somewhat back to the old days is to bring in UCONN and Cincinnati. I don't know how they would do it to make sure both those schools stay due to their football programs (which would have to either stay in the AAC or go independent). Maybe set the exit fee astronomically high? In my universe, I target those programs and only them to get the league to 12.

There is ZERO chance in hell that the AAC lets UCONN and Cinci run back to the Big East and leave football there....ZERO.

There is a slightly better chance...like .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% better...that they move football indy and do it that way. Problem is...there's no money in being an independent unless you are Notre Dame, anymore. Even ND is moving into a conference alignmentish with the ACC.

The new playoff format doesn't make it reasonable to be independent either without doing what ND did and aligning with a conference. The AAC/B10/B12/SEC aren't going to let UCONN/Cinci do that.


The Big East's *best* bet is to try to raid Dayton, St. Louis, VCU, etc... However, you will never convince me that the Big East is ANYTHING other than a MM conference at that point.

[grizzaholic]

I'm just enjoying the view big man.

It's amazing that the other Big East homer, Seahawks08, is on our (Bluehen86, myself, and whoever else) but yet tomcat continues to hold out with overwhelming evidence against him.

He'll continue to avoid the entire topic but find some random article talking about VU and their chances to win the title...which isn't the topic that's been discussed.

Also, I struggle to take VU completely seriously with the way Creighton shit stomped them...twice. Once I could understand. Twice isn't an accident.

FWIW, before tomcat has an aneurism, I have Nova in the S16 in my bracket before bowing out to Iowa State.

Didn't VU lose in the first game of their tourney?