Kissinger - How the Ukraine crisis ends

[VictorG]

Didn't know he was still on "this side", but interesting perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheDancinMonarch]

Didn't know he was still on "this side", but interesting perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe he should be Secretary of State. It would be like putting the adults in charge.

[Cap'n Cat]

Didn't know he was still on "this side", but interesting perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe he should be Secretary of State. It would be like putting the adults in charge.

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

[AZGrizFan]

Maybe he should be Secretary of State. It would be like putting the adults in charge.

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

Not.

[OL FU]

Maybe he should be Secretary of State. It would be like putting the adults in charge.

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

Probably so, but unfortunately that means we are going backwards at a slower rate

[Cap'n Cat]

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

Not.

Yes, quite so. More that 450,000 killed, disabled, wounded Americans in Iraqistan over the decade+, an overwhelming majority of them owned by that cabal of American terrorists.

[UNI88]

Maybe he should be Secretary of State. It would be like putting the adults in charge.

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

I'd put them at about the same level of incompetence. I'd love to see a new episode of Lil Bush with the Bush gang against the Obama gang. It would be like a combined Lil Rascals and Abbott & Costello show.

Kissinger was one of the greatest diplomats of the 20th century. Kerry isn't qualified to sniff his jock.

[TheDancinMonarch]

Not.

Yes, quite so. More that 450,000 killed, disabled, wounded Americans in Iraqistan over the decade+, an overwhelming majority of them owned by that cabal of American terrorists.

I believe that Mr. Kissinger, a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, much like your hero, left government service in 1977, well before the "iraqistan" fiasco you mention.

And insulting people doesn't make you seem more intelligent.

[YoUDeeMan]

Maybe he should be Secretary of State. It would be like putting the adults in charge.

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

You must have missed this part of Kissinger's essay:

"The politics of post-independence Ukraine/Obama clearly demonstrate that the root of the problem lies in efforts by Ukrainian/Obama's politicians to impose their will on recalcitrant parts of the country, first by one faction, then by the other."

"Elections have consequences."

Kissinger seems to be stuck in the past.

"Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe." That is a bit problematic for Russia, and anyone in East Ukraine, in that the business folks will soon be imposing their own political will on Ukraine, and it will not be good in any way for Russia because the money will be coming from the West. In a few years/decades, the rural Eastern part of Ukraine will be silenced and overruled by the big money machines.

"It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol."

It is also incompatible with the rules of the existing world that Crimea can't just vote to succeed from Ukraine, so why should Russia recognize Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea? And that little bit about the status of the Black Sea's Fleet a Sevastopol is precious...that "treaty" will be ending soon enough, and who in their right minds thinks that a Western oriented Ukraine would make it financially viable for Russia to renew that lease?

Sorry, Kissinger, while your words have wisdom, you whiffed on two of the most important and volatile points of the confrontation. Kicking those things down the road doesn't work these days.

[VictorG]

Says what you like, Butterfly Cock, but the current gang is light years ahead of the CheneyRummyWCondy comedy team.

You must have missed this part of Kissinger's essay:

"The politics of post-independence Ukraine/Obama clearly demonstrate that the root of the problem lies in efforts by Ukrainian/Obama's politicians to impose their will on recalcitrant parts of the country, first by one faction, then by the other."

"Elections have consequences."

Kissinger seems to be stuck in the past.

"Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe." That is a bit problematic for Russia, and anyone in East Ukraine, in that the business folks will soon be imposing their own political will on Ukraine, and it will not be good in any way for Russia because the money will be coming from the West. In a few years/decades, the rural Eastern part of Ukraine will be silenced and overruled by the big money machines.

"It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol."

It is also incompatible with the rules of the existing world that Crimea can't just vote to succeed from Ukraine, so why should Russia recognize Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea? And that little bit about the status of the Black Sea's Fleet a Sevastopol is precious...that "treaty" will be ending soon enough, and who in their right minds thinks that a Western oriented Ukraine would make it financially viable for Russia to renew that lease?

Sorry, Kissinger, while your words have wisdom, you whiffed on two of the most important and volatile points of the confrontation. Kicking those things down the road doesn't work these days.

There are those that I listen to/read who are saying this was a setup created by the US and Britain and Russia fell for it hook line and sinker. What is at stake is the energy (gas and oil) contracts Russia currently has and future ones, with Europe. The US in particular is sitting on the side lines waiting to jump into the market place once Russia has cut their own throats so to speak, especially with natural gas........

If Russia carries out their threats to stem energy exportation to Europe, the US and to a lessor extent some other countries will step in and grab the market and shut Russia out for a long time. This is "behind the scenes" type of economic politicking and the west created or let happen a situation knowing Putin would jump in and go way to far because of his personal ego. Then the west will step in and clean up....

That's what I hear anyway!!!

[BDKJMU]

Not.

Yes, quite so. More that 450,000 killed, disabled, wounded Americans in Iraqistan over the decade+, an overwhelming majority of them owned by that cabal of American terrorists.

Iraq---------: About 4,400 KIA, 32,000 WIA
Afghanistan: About 2,300 KIA, 20,000 WIA
http://www.defense.gov/news/casualty.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Totals under 60k. But I guess liberal math 60k= 450k

[Grizalltheway]

You must have missed this part of Kissinger's essay:

"The politics of post-independence Ukraine/Obama clearly demonstrate that the root of the problem lies in efforts by Ukrainian/Obama's politicians to impose their will on recalcitrant parts of the country, first by one faction, then by the other."

"Elections have consequences."

Kissinger seems to be stuck in the past.

"Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe." That is a bit problematic for Russia, and anyone in East Ukraine, in that the business folks will soon be imposing their own political will on Ukraine, and it will not be good in any way for Russia because the money will be coming from the West. In a few years/decades, the rural Eastern part of Ukraine will be silenced and overruled by the big money machines.

"It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol."

It is also incompatible with the rules of the existing world that Crimea can't just vote to succeed from Ukraine, so why should Russia recognize Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea? And that little bit about the status of the Black Sea's Fleet a Sevastopol is precious...that "treaty" will be ending soon enough, and who in their right minds thinks that a Western oriented Ukraine would make it financially viable for Russia to renew that lease?

Sorry, Kissinger, while your words have wisdom, you whiffed on two of the most important and volatile points of the confrontation. Kicking those things down the road doesn't work these days.

There are those that I listen to/read who are saying this was a setup created by the US and Britain and Russia fell for it hook line and sinker. What is at stake is the energy (gas and oil) contracts Russia currently has and future ones, with Europe. The US in particular is sitting on the side lines waiting to jump into the market place once Russia has cut their own throats so to speak, especially with natural gas........

If Russia carries out their threats to stem energy exportation to Europe, the US and to a lessor extent some other countries will step in and grab the market and shut Russia out for a long time. This is "behind the scenes" type of economic politicking and the west created or let happen a situation knowing Putin would jump in and go way to far because of his personal ego. Then the west will step in and clean up....

That's what I hear anyway!!!

Speaking of conspiracy theories, where has spanos been throughout this whole thing???

[biobengal]

Yes, quite so. More that 450,000 killed, disabled, wounded Americans in Iraqistan over the decade+, an overwhelming majority of them owned by that cabal of American terrorists.

Iraq---------: About 4,400 KIA, 32,000 WIA
Afghanistan: About 2,300 KIA, 20,000 WIA
http://www.defense.gov/news/casualty.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Totals under 60k. But I guess liberal math 60k= 450k

Cappy is right; you need to add in the 1 in 5 returning vets diagnosed with PTSD (300,000), which has cost this country 2 billion SO FAR.... and has turned the military into a benefits organization. Bush/Cheney = American terrorists.

[VictorG]

Speaking of conspiracy theories, where has spanos been throughout this whole thing???

My wife went to school (grade and high school) with his kids. Used to go to his house after school with them and for parties/functions....lost touch with them after high School.

I think he's locked up somewhere watching reruns of the Charger Super Bowls....

[VictorG]

Speaking of conspiracy theories, where has spanos been throughout this whole thing???

I think he discovered some youth pills and in his celebrations did something bad because it looks like he may be going to jail soon!

http://www.wcax.com/story/23692668/spanos-trial-delayed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Actually, I think he's most likely fighting health problems as I found this article where he told his family he was having memory problems back when he was only 85. He's 90 (or more) now.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2008/Dec ... ory-fadin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ASUG8]

Iraq---------: About 4,400 KIA, 32,000 WIA
Afghanistan: About 2,300 KIA, 20,000 WIA
http://www.defense.gov/news/casualty.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Totals under 60k. But I guess liberal math 60k= 450k

Cappy is right; you need to add in the 1 in 5 returning vets diagnosed with PTSD (300,000), which has cost this country 2 billion SO FAR.... and has turned the military into a benefits organization. Bush/Cheney = American terrorists.

So BHO has no stake in this? He shut down the Iraq war and just moved everyone next door to Afghanistan where we continue down the same path. I'm not saying the Iraq war was justified, but you can't have it both ways.

[YoUDeeMan]

Cappy is right; you need to add in the 1 in 5 returning vets diagnosed with PTSD (300,000), which has cost this country 2 billion SO FAR.... and has turned the military into a benefits organization. Bush/Cheney = American terrorists.

So BHO has no stake in this? He shut down the Iraq war and just moved everyone next door to Afghanistan where we continue down the same path. I'm not saying the Iraq war was justified, but you can't have it both ways.

Obiobengal's left leg is several inches shorter than his right leg.

[Grizalltheway]

Cappy is right; you need to add in the 1 in 5 returning vets diagnosed with PTSD (300,000), which has cost this country 2 billion SO FAR.... and has turned the military into a benefits organization. Bush/Cheney = American terrorists.

So BHO has no stake in this? He shut down the Iraq war and just moved everyone next door to Afghanistan where we continue down the same path. I'm not saying the Iraq war was justified, but you can't have it both ways.

We should hopefully be out of Affy by the end of the year. Better late than never.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-2 ... -pact.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[YoUDeeMan]

So BHO has no stake in this? He shut down the Iraq war and just moved everyone next door to Afghanistan where we continue down the same path. I'm not saying the Iraq war was justified, but you can't have it both ways.

We should hopefully be out of Affy by the end of the year. Better late than never.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-2 ... -pact.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You do understand that Obama WANTS to stay in Affy, don't you? We're being kicked out.

And I think you still don't understand that Obama WANTED to stay in Iraq...but we were also kicked out (following Bush's original timetable, mind you).

The more you know...

[Grizalltheway]

We should hopefully be out of Affy by the end of the year. Better late than never.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-2 ... -pact.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You do understand that Obama WANTS to stay in Affy, don't you? We're being kicked out.

And I think you still don't understand that Obama WANTED to stay in Iraq...but we were also kicked out (following Bush's original timetable, mind you).

The more you know...

At this point, I don't really GAF who wants to stay there and who doesn't. Like you, I just want us to quit expending American blood and treasure in far-flung shitholes ASAP.

[YoUDeeMan]

You do understand that Obama WANTS to stay in Affy, don't you? We're being kicked out.

And I think you still don't understand that Obama WANTED to stay in Iraq...but we were also kicked out (following Bush's original timetable, mind you).

The more you know...

At this point, I don't really GAF who wants to stay there and who doesn't. Like you, I just want us to quit expending American blood and treasure in far-flung shitholes ASAP.

(Pssst...Joe, maybe there is a God)

[SDHornet]

You do understand that Obama WANTS to stay in Affy, don't you? We're being kicked out.

And I think you still don't understand that Obama WANTED to stay in Iraq...but we were also kicked out (following Bush's original timetable, mind you).

The more you know...

At this point, I don't really GAF who wants to stay there and who doesn't. Like you, I just want us to quit expending American blood and treasure in far-flung shitholes ASAP.

Amen.

[∞∞∞]

Had to look up who this person since y'all made him out to be a big deal.

He has an interesting and good opinion, but like everyone else not close to the situation (aka. almost everyone), he probably doesn't have all the details to make a fully-informed analysis.

[Grizalltheway]

Had to look up who this person since y'all made him out to be a big deal.

He has an interesting and good opinion, but like everyone else not close to the situation (aka. almost everyone), he probably doesn't have all the details to make a fully-informed analysis.

Umm...did you not take American history in high school?

[∞∞∞]

Had to look up who this person since y'all made him out to be a big deal.

He has an interesting and good opinion, but like everyone else not close to the situation (aka. almost everyone), he probably doesn't have all the details to make a fully-informed analysis.

Umm...did you not take American history in high school?

In general, I don't think the Secretary of State gets too much written about them in history books. I'm sure he's mentioned in a paragraph or two, but it's probably in passing. I mean, I doubt most people can name Secretary of States that retired more than a decade before that person was born. Hell, I can't recall any Secretary of State before Colin Powell without looking it up.