Tonight on PBS: Frontline exposes the Vatican

[Grizalltheway]

Ain't that the truth.

I'm a DoD buyer and even I wouldn't pay that much. Hahah.

The corpus of a trust exists to generate income, but generally speaking, the corpus cannot be spent -- only interest on the corpus can be spent. (We are speaking about perpetual care of the cemeteries, so the corpus has to be maintained).

A trust of $57 million probably kicks off about $3.5 million in interest every year. The diocese maintains eight cemeteries. The average golf course course costs over $1 million to maintain every year.

Next.

You really think the maintenance needs for a golf course and a cemetery are the same? Next indeed.

[JoltinJoe]

The corpus of a trust exists to generate income, but generally speaking, the corpus cannot be spent -- only interest on the corpus can be spent. (We are speaking about perpetual care of the cemeteries, so the corpus has to be maintained).

A trust of $57 million probably kicks off about $3.5 million in interest every year. The diocese maintains eight cemeteries. The average golf course course costs over $1 million to maintain every year.

Next.

You really think the maintenance needs for a golf course and a cemetery are the same? Next indeed.

No, I'd guess it's probably about 50% of the cost. But when you have eight cemeteries, I'm guessing $3.5 million is right in the ball park for appropriate maintenance.

[D1B]

Ain't that the truth.

I'm a DoD buyer and even I wouldn't pay that much. Hahah.

The corpus of a trust exists to generate income, but generally speaking, the corpus cannot be spent -- only interest on the corpus can be spent. (We are speaking about perpetual care of the cemeteries, so the corpus has to be maintained).

A trust of $57 million probably kicks off about $3.5 million in interest every year. The diocese maintains eight cemeteries. The average golf course course costs over $1 million to maintain every year.

Next.

The trust was never meant to cover cemetary costs. It was moved there from diocese balance sheets to protect it from children raped by your priests. No other diocese has ever done this to shield assets. It's nothing more than a shell game concieved by bankruptsy attorneys and other catholic lawyer scumbags.

In 2007, before heading east, then-Archbishop Dolan asked the Vatican’s Congregation for Clergy for a “transfer of assets from the patrimony of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee to a separate juridic person, an autonomous pious foundation known as the Archdiocese of Milwaukee Catholic Cemetery Perpetual Care Trust.”

“I foresee an improved protection of these funds from legal claims and liability litigation,” Dolan wrote. The usually cumbersome Vatican bureaucracy acted promptly to grant his request.

The Milwaukee archdiocese had also transferred $90 million in assets to individual parishes, which are legally separate entities.

What would Jesus do? Take responsibility and take care of the victims

What the Catholic Church did? Pay scumbag bankruptsy attorneys to figure out a way to shield assest from children raped by their priests.

[D1B]

The corpus of a trust exists to generate income, but generally speaking, the corpus cannot be spent -- only interest on the corpus can be spent. (We are speaking about perpetual care of the cemeteries, so the corpus has to be maintained).

A trust of $57 million probably kicks off about $3.5 million in interest every year. The diocese maintains eight cemeteries. The average golf course course costs over $1 million to maintain every year.

Next.

You really think the maintenance needs for a golf course and a cemetery are the same? Next indeed.

Joe is using a red herring here, again. This is a moot issue.

The funds were in the diocesan general treasury as unrestricted funds. Dolan simply moved/renamed them on the balance sheet to restrict them thus shielding them from claimants, in this case children raped by his priests. The catholic church then argued that forcing them to use these "newly named" restricted funds for anything other than religious purposes, like say to help survivors raped by priests, would violate their free exercise of religion under the First Amendment.

Here are a couple things the diocesan general treasure funds - now, the Cemetary Trust were used for, in Milwaukee:

Dolan used these very same funds to pay pedophile priests $20,000 plus full medical, dental and some pension for life to walk away. He never reported these known pedophiles to the police.

Archbishop Rembert Weakland of the Milwaukee Archdiocese paid a secret settlement to a man he sexually abused when a student at Marquette University. The amount of the settlement was $450,000

[D1B]

Joe, who won the O.J Simpson double murder case?

[JoltinJoe]

You really think the maintenance needs for a golf course and a cemetery are the same? Next indeed.

Joe is using a red herring here, again. This is a moot issue.

The funds were in the diocesan general treasury as unrestricted funds. Dolan simply moved/renamed them on the balance sheet to restrict them thus shielding them from claimants, in this case children raped by his priests. The catholic church then argued that forcing them to use these "newly named" restricted funds for anything other than religious purposes, like say to help survivors raped by priests, would violate their free exercise of religion under the First Amendment.

Here are a couple things the diocesan general treasure funds - now, the Cemetary Trust were used for, in Milwaukee:

Dolan used these very same funds to pay pedophile priests $20,000 plus full medical, dental and some pension for life to walk away. He never reported these known pedophiles to the police.

Archbishop Rembert Weakland of the Milwaukee Archdiocese paid a secret settlement to a man he sexually abused when a student at Marquette University. The amount of the settlement was $450,000

You're wrong. The fact is these funds were ALWAYS separately booked as "trust funds" by the Diocese -- a point the Committee conceded. Although the funds themselves should have always been segregated in a separate trust account, the Diocese acted appropriately when it formally segregated the funds into a trust account in 2005. As stated, the Diocese should have been doing that from day one.

So this case turned out to be an easy one. This kind of thing happens all the time in a bankruptcy context. A debtor is supposed to be holding an asset in trust, but never formalized the trust. General creditors often try to steal that asset for themselves. But in the absence of a demonstrated fraud or intentional co-mingling, the Court will uphold the trust on equitable grounds.

Easy case which routinely is decided in favor of the trust.

[JoltinJoe]

The corpus of a trust exists to generate income, but generally speaking, the corpus cannot be spent -- only interest on the corpus can be spent. (We are speaking about perpetual care of the cemeteries, so the corpus has to be maintained).

A trust of $57 million probably kicks off about $3.5 million in interest every year. The diocese maintains eight cemeteries. The average golf course course costs over $1 million to maintain every year.

Next.

The trust was never meant to cover cemetary costs. It was moved there from diocese balance sheets to protect it from children raped by your priests. No other diocese has ever done this to shield assets. It's nothing more than a shell game concieved by bankruptsy attorneys and other catholic lawyer scumbags.

In 2007, before heading east, then-Archbishop Dolan asked the Vatican’s Congregation for Clergy for a “transfer of assets from the patrimony of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee to a separate juridic person, an autonomous pious foundation known as the Archdiocese of Milwaukee Catholic Cemetery Perpetual Care Trust.”

“I foresee an improved protection of these funds from legal claims and liability litigation,” Dolan wrote. The usually cumbersome Vatican bureaucracy acted promptly to grant his request.

The Milwaukee archdiocese had also transferred $90 million in assets to individual parishes, which are legally separate entities.

What would Jesus do? Take responsibility and take care of the victims

What the Catholic Church did? Pay scumbag bankruptsy attorneys to figure out a way to shield assest from children raped by their priests.

The victims have already been paid by the Milwaukee Diocese. Years ago. Dirty secret about the Milwaukee bankruptcy: most of the claimants have either been previously paid or their claims are outright bogus. This is why Milwaukee is playing hardball (and winning).

And if the press ever got further than Ander$NAP's press releases, they would see this.

Milwaukee just filed a plan of reorganization offering $4 million to those claims it recognizes as a legitimate and not previously paid. It offered nothing to about 80% of the alleged claimants. It has said if the supposed creditors turn the plan down, it will take on each contested claim one after another. Milwaukee knows it will win any hearing on a claim it contests.

[D1B]

The trust was never meant to cover cemetary costs. It was moved there from diocese balance sheets to protect it from children raped by your priests. No other diocese has ever done this to shield assets. It's nothing more than a shell game concieved by bankruptsy attorneys and other catholic lawyer scumbags.



What would Jesus do? Take responsibility and take care of the victims

What the Catholic Church did? Pay scumbag bankruptsy attorneys to figure out a way to shield assest from children raped by their priests.

The victims have already been paid by the Milwaukee Diocese. Years ago. Dirty secret about the Milwaukee bankruptcy: most of the claimants have either been previously paid or their claims are outright bogus. This is why Milwaukee is playing hardball (and winning).

No they haven't. Show me the source confirming the victims have already been paid. More are coming forth by the day and, as the recent court-ordered 6000 page release of documents by the archdiocese reveals, the Archdiocese has a major problem of Bostonian magnitude, and, that's why the church is playing hardball.

Your callous attempts to poison the well with the rare bogus claim ruse continues to fall on deaf ears and betrays a disturbing level of cynicism and unchristlike lack of compassion on your part. Even your church admits most claims are credible. And so what if youre church has to deal with bogus claim? That's what happen when corporations like the church don't do the right things.



And if the press ever got further than Ander$NAP's press releases, they would see this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah....everyone, including the most credible of sources, experts and whistleblowers within the church around the globe got it wrong except for you. I understand why you vilify people and advocacy groups like SNAP. It's got to be shameful, maybe not for you, but I can imagine a lifelong catholic watching the Frontline piece and feeling betrayed, the more moral of em - becoming enraged. Then there's you, lashing out against victims, just like your church does - deny, blame and deflect is your mantra. It's easier for the weak of mind and character to blame someone like Jeff Anderson than accept that you've been heinously misled by the people you worship.

Milwaukee just filed a plan of reorganization offering $4 million to those claims it recognizes as a legitimate and not previously paid. It offered nothing to about 80% of the alleged claimants. It has said if the supposed creditors turn the plan down, it will take on each contested claim one after another. Milwaukee knows it will win any hearing on a claim it contests.

They just filed THEIR plan a week or ago and it's crap - pays less than half to victims of what Dolan paid to pedophile priests. The church is not judge and jury here. Those victims should be compensated at a level commensurate with the brutality of the crimes against them. Milwaukee has done and continues to do anything they can to avoid the courtroom because they know they will lose way often more than not. They also know that precedent has been set where the church not only loses these cases, but are also compelled to release associated documents highlighting their abhorrent behavior, cover up, threats and revictimization of victims and families. THIS is ultimately what they want to avoid and what in the end will further do them in.

Winning? The battle has just begun for this already bankrupt archdiocese. And, it's just beginning in Chicago. Stay tuned.

Got to hand it to you Joe, you sure can pack a shitload of lies, unsubstantiated conjecture and fallacious reasoning in a short space.

[93henfan]

Gotta love Joe's tenacity in the face of obvious defeat.

[Chizzang]

Gotta love Joe's tenacity in the face of obvious defeat.

This ^ hilarity

[kalm]

The corpus of a trust exists to generate income, but generally speaking, the corpus cannot be spent -- only interest on the corpus can be spent. (We are speaking about perpetual care of the cemeteries, so the corpus has to be maintained).

A trust of $57 million probably kicks off about $3.5 million in interest every year. The diocese maintains eight cemeteries. The average golf course course costs over $1 million to maintain every year.

Next.

You really think the maintenance needs for a golf course and a cemetery are the same? Next indeed.

Not even close. And the average golf course doesn't cost a million to maintain either.

[D1B]

Joltin Joe (center):

"Nein! Bogusafthussen! - Leftenstchalck zein Xylkonsch Chamber!!"

"Ja Sagan Reighten auf der Internierungslager!"

...

[D1B]

You really think the maintenance needs for a golf course and a cemetery are the same? Next indeed.

Not even close. And the average golf course doesn't cost a million to maintain either.

Agree, but this is red herring. The money originally was in a general unrestricted account that was pretty much a slush fund Dolan and other Milwaukee criminals used for a myriad of purposes most of which were not approved by donors. The cemetery trust move was a callous ruse orchestrated to protect the money from the victims of church brutality.

Now the church has $57,000,000 for a few cemeteries. This is akin to a corporation restricting $57,000,000 to cover the costs of coffee in the break room.

Lot of poor people could be helped with that money.

[D1B]

Joe is using a red herring here, again. This is a moot issue.

The funds were in the diocesan general treasury as unrestricted funds. Dolan simply moved/renamed them on the balance sheet to restrict them thus shielding them from claimants, in this case children raped by his priests. The catholic church then argued that forcing them to use these "newly named" restricted funds for anything other than religious purposes, like say to help survivors raped by priests, would violate their free exercise of religion under the First Amendment.

Here are a couple things the diocesan general treasure funds - now, the Cemetary Trust were used for, in Milwaukee:

Dolan used these very same funds to pay pedophile priests $20,000 plus full medical, dental and some pension for life to walk away. He never reported these known pedophiles to the police.

Archbishop Rembert Weakland of the Milwaukee Archdiocese paid a secret settlement to a man he sexually abused when a student at Marquette University. The amount of the settlement was $450,000

You're wrong. The fact is these funds were ALWAYS separately booked as "trust funds" by the Diocese -- a point the Committee conceded. Although the funds themselves should have always been segregated in a separate trust account, the Diocese acted appropriately when it formally segregated the funds into a trust account in 2005. As stated, the Diocese should have been doing that from day one.

So this case turned out to be an easy one. This kind of thing happens all the time in a bankruptcy context. A debtor is supposed to be holding an asset in trust, but never formalized the trust. General creditors often try to steal that asset for themselves. But in the absence of a demonstrated fraud or intentional co-mingling, the Court will uphold the trust on equitable grounds.

Easy case which routinely is decided in favor of the trust.

It was a slush fund for the Archbishop.

Nothing but a shell game precipitated solely by the imminent loss of these funds to children who were raped by your priests.

Even if you're accurate, which you are not, this issue, again unprecedented within your church, exposes reprehensible financial mismanagement and breach of donor intent as these funds have historically been used for other purposes, many dubious.

[GannonFan]

You're wrong. The fact is these funds were ALWAYS separately booked as "trust funds" by the Diocese -- a point the Committee conceded. Although the funds themselves should have always been segregated in a separate trust account, the Diocese acted appropriately when it formally segregated the funds into a trust account in 2005. As stated, the Diocese should have been doing that from day one.

So this case turned out to be an easy one. This kind of thing happens all the time in a bankruptcy context. A debtor is supposed to be holding an asset in trust, but never formalized the trust. General creditors often try to steal that asset for themselves. But in the absence of a demonstrated fraud or intentional co-mingling, the Court will uphold the trust on equitable grounds.

Easy case which routinely is decided in favor of the trust.

It was a slush fund for the Archbishop.

Nothing but a shell game precipitated solely by the imminent loss of these funds to children who were raped by your priests.

Even if you're accurate, which you are not, this issue, again unprecedented within your church, exposes reprehensible financial mismanagement and breach of donor intent as these funds have historically been used for other purposes, many dubious.

The thing is, Joe's right in this particular case, and you are right, then, to point out the terrible financial management at the bishop level in this case. While donors thought they were contributing to the upkeep of cemeteries, all too often, and in dioceses other than Milwaukee, the bishops were taking these protected trusts and then co-mingling them with general funds to spend on whatver they wanted to spend them on, sometimes legitimate things, and sometimes illegitimate things. In the Milwaukee case, the court outcome was to give the stamp of approval on correcting this orignal issue, that is, correcting the fact that the bishop had not kept the money in a protected trust for that specific use as the money was intended to be.

All the more reason to only donate locally (i.e. at the parish level) or, if you're going to donate to a larger cause, then to do so to something like the Catholic Charities. I wouldn't trust the archdiocese with my money at this point, and frankly, the archdiocese doesn't do much for me at the local level anyway. The laity run most of the church operations at the local level, along with the pastor, so the "central" authority seems very distant from that perspective.

[93henfan]

I wouldn't trust the archdiocese with my money at this point, and frankly, the archdiocese doesn't do much for me at the local level anyway.

Your honesty is refreshing.

Of course, you're not a lawyer either.

[D1B]

It was a slush fund for the Archbishop.

Nothing but a shell game precipitated solely by the imminent loss of these funds to children who were raped by your priests.

Even if you're accurate, which you are not, this issue, again unprecedented within your church, exposes reprehensible financial mismanagement and breach of donor intent as these funds have historically been used for other purposes, many dubious.

The thing is, Joe's right in this particular case, and you are right, then, to point out the terrible financial management at the bishop level in this case. While donors thought they were contributing to the upkeep of cemeteries, all too often, and in dioceses other than Milwaukee, the bishops were taking these protected trusts and then co-mingling them with general funds to spend on whatver they wanted to spend them on, sometimes legitimate things, and sometimes illegitimate things. In the Milwaukee case, the court outcome was to give the stamp of approval on correcting this orignal issue, that is, correcting the fact that the bishop had not kept the money in a protected trust for that specific use as the money was intended to be.

All the more reason to only donate locally (i.e. at the parish level) or, if you're going to donate to a larger cause, then to do so to something like the Catholic Charities. I wouldn't trust the archdiocese with my money at this point, and frankly, the archdiocese doesn't do much for me at the local level anyway. The laity run most of the church operations at the local level, along with the pastor, so the "central" authority seems very distant from that perspective.

They created the ruse, unique only to Milwaukee because of the size of the funds involved, ONLY after they were exposed. Don't make it sound like they willingly desired to correct the issue for noble purpose.

The other issue I touched upon earlier is why is the church even still soliciting donations for bullshit cemetery upkeep from widows knowing they have $60,000,000 in the can? Why is the church even charging parishioners, at this point, to be buried in their cemeteries? They're clearly taking advantage of and deceiving the grieved.

But again, the trust issue and legality is a red herring. Here's where Joe's character fails him causing him not to understand the primary issues - bottom line, ethically, all church assets should be available to atone for its crimes against children. That money should be available to victims just like the billions of other donor dollars that have alreadry been spent by the church in lost lawsuits and legal costs.

Its the right thing to do. It's what Jesus would do.

[D1B]

It was a slush fund for the Archbishop.

Nothing but a shell game precipitated solely by the imminent loss of these funds to children who were raped by your priests.

Even if you're accurate, which you are not, this issue, again unprecedented within your church, exposes reprehensible financial mismanagement and breach of donor intent as these funds have historically been used for other purposes, many dubious.

The thing is, Joe's right in this particular case, and you are right, then, to point out the terrible financial management at the bishop level in this case. While donors thought they were contributing to the upkeep of cemeteries, all too often, and in dioceses other than Milwaukee, the bishops were taking these protected trusts and then co-mingling them with general funds to spend on whatver they wanted to spend them on, sometimes legitimate things, and sometimes illegitimate things. In the Milwaukee case, the court outcome was to give the stamp of approval on correcting this orignal issue, that is, correcting the fact that the bishop had not kept the money in a protected trust for that specific use as the money was intended to be.

All the more reason to only donate locally (i.e. at the parish level) or, if you're going to donate to a larger cause, then to do so to something like the Catholic Charities. I wouldn't trust the archdiocese with my money at this point, and frankly, the archdiocese doesn't do much for me at the local level anyway. The laity run most of the church operations at the local level, along with the pastor, so the "central" authority seems very distant from that perspective.

Catholic Charities, yes. Even your local parish is suspect as there's little to no oversight over what your money actually pays for. There's no accountability either.

Don't think for a second that none of your gift to your little, safe parish partially pays off pedophiles a la Dolan, or pays thugs like Joe to threaten and harass victims and their families or pays the health and dental and pension for life for a retired priest who has raped over 100 children.

You partially fund this sick mess.

[GannonFan]

The thing is, Joe's right in this particular case, and you are right, then, to point out the terrible financial management at the bishop level in this case. While donors thought they were contributing to the upkeep of cemeteries, all too often, and in dioceses other than Milwaukee, the bishops were taking these protected trusts and then co-mingling them with general funds to spend on whatver they wanted to spend them on, sometimes legitimate things, and sometimes illegitimate things. In the Milwaukee case, the court outcome was to give the stamp of approval on correcting this orignal issue, that is, correcting the fact that the bishop had not kept the money in a protected trust for that specific use as the money was intended to be.

All the more reason to only donate locally (i.e. at the parish level) or, if you're going to donate to a larger cause, then to do so to something like the Catholic Charities. I wouldn't trust the archdiocese with my money at this point, and frankly, the archdiocese doesn't do much for me at the local level anyway. The laity run most of the church operations at the local level, along with the pastor, so the "central" authority seems very distant from that perspective.

Catholic Charities, yes. Even your local parish is suspect as there's little to no oversight over what your money actually pays for. There's no accountability either.

Don't think for a second that none of your gift to your little, safe parish partially pays off pedophiles a la Dolan, or pays thugs like Joe to threaten and harass victims and their families or pays the health and dental and pension for life for a retired priest who has raped over 100 children.

You partially fund this sick mess.

Of course some money ends up going to the archdiocese and then yes, certainly some of it goes to pay off bad deeds, but far less than you think. There's actually much more oversight over what the money goes to from a local standpoint - there's a whole budgetary committee of lay people who work with the pastor and have full access to the books - it's not that complicated. It's all up to the people in the parish. Some parishes are more involved than others. When my wife and I were going to the Jesuit parish in the city, it was almost like a Protestant church in terms of the control of the church - the lay board had virtually full control of the church's operations and the Jesuits handled the church doctrine part of it (the spiritual side of the church). Even to the point that they forced out the pastor they didn't like because they felt he was getting too involved into the day to day functions of the church that were being handled by others. But when it comes down to it, the churches are as accountable as the people that go to them make them - some are very accountable, and then ones I've been involved with are like that. Obviously, there are others that are less so. The broad brush doesn't work here.

[D1B]

Catholic Charities, yes. Even your local parish is suspect as there's little to no oversight over what your money actually pays for. There's no accountability either.

Don't think for a second that none of your gift to your little, safe parish partially pays off pedophiles a la Dolan, or pays thugs like Joe to threaten and harass victims and their families or pays the health and dental and pension for life for a retired priest who has raped over 100 children.

You partially fund this sick mess.

Of course some money ends up going to the archdiocese and then yes, certainly some of it goes to pay off bad deeds, but far less than you think. There's actually much more oversight over what the money goes to from a local standpoint - there's a whole budgetary committee of lay people who work with the pastor and have full access to the books - it's not that complicated. It's all up to the people in the parish. Some parishes are more involved than others. When my wife and I were going to the Jesuit parish in the city, it was almost like a Protestant church in terms of the control of the church - the lay board had virtually full control of the church's operations and the Jesuits handled the church doctrine part of it (the spiritual side of the church). Even to the point that they forced out the pastor they didn't like because they felt he was getting too involved into the day to day functions of the church that were being handled by others. But when it comes down to it, the churches are as accountable as the people that go to them make them - some are very accountable, and then ones I've been involved with are like that. Obviously, there are others that are less so. The broad brush doesn't work here.

Who audits your church?

[JoltinJoe]

Gotta love Joe's tenacity in the face of obvious defeat.

I said months ago it was OBVIOUS the trust as going to be upheld, and I was right.

Obvious defeat? It's a shame that when I make a prediction, you guys got find a parlor to place a bet. You guys would be rich if you could place money on what I predict. I even called Msgr. Lynn's conviction be overturned, and I was right -- even as all the (cough, cough) media predicted his appeal would fail.

How come I'm always right? I'm just better informed and I look more carefully at the facts.

Milwaukee will be out of bankruptcy within a year and it won't pay much more than the $4 million offered in its plan.

BTW, you stole my joke. I've used that Monty Python thing before. Get original, ok?

[93henfan]

Tis but a scratch!

Merely a flesh wound!!



He doesn't quit.

[JoltinJoe]

Tis but a scratch!

Merely a flesh wound!!



He doesn't quit.

Dude:

Was the Trust upheld as legitimate by a federal court?

Did I correctly predict this outcome?

/thread

[GannonFan]

Of course some money ends up going to the archdiocese and then yes, certainly some of it goes to pay off bad deeds, but far less than you think. There's actually much more oversight over what the money goes to from a local standpoint - there's a whole budgetary committee of lay people who work with the pastor and have full access to the books - it's not that complicated. It's all up to the people in the parish. Some parishes are more involved than others. When my wife and I were going to the Jesuit parish in the city, it was almost like a Protestant church in terms of the control of the church - the lay board had virtually full control of the church's operations and the Jesuits handled the church doctrine part of it (the spiritual side of the church). Even to the point that they forced out the pastor they didn't like because they felt he was getting too involved into the day to day functions of the church that were being handled by others. But when it comes down to it, the churches are as accountable as the people that go to them make them - some are very accountable, and then ones I've been involved with are like that. Obviously, there are others that are less so. The broad brush doesn't work here.

Who audits your church?

Not an outside agency like I'm sure you're referring to. But again, the budgetary committee (about 15 parishoners each year) see all the incoming funds and the expenditures. Again, there isn't so much money coming in that it can't be followed.

[93henfan]

Tis but a scratch!

Merely a flesh wound!!



He doesn't quit.

Dude:

Was the Trust upheld as legitimate by a federal court?

Did I correctly predict this outcome?

/thread

I have no idea. I don't follow that nor do I care. I just wish you'd acknowledge that you belong to a money-grubbing organization that defends and covers for pedophiles.

But of course you won't. You can never swallow your pride and that's why everyone loves to fuck with you over and over and over.