Jesus was made up

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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by kalm »

CAA Flagship wrote:The only complaint that non-believers should have towards believers is if they are constantly berated for not believing. Not sure if that is the case in everyday life for any of you. In this forum however, it is the non-believers that do the majority of the berating. Interesting. Why is that?
1) It's a semi-anonymous football forum.

2) Why shouldn't I complain about religion's influence on politics, laws, and culture? Why shouldn't I complain about the numerous people I know personally who were negatively impacted by their parent's religious beliefs...Mormon kids forced to marry due to teen pregnancy, children disowned because they weren't true believers, etc? Why can't I have an issue with free-loading, parasitic churches, not paying taxes like the rest of us?

3) Hypocrisy and superstition are entertaining.

4) Religion does a ton of good and I really have no personal problems with anyone's personal beliefs.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by JoltinJoe »

[quote="D1B"]
You also appear to have the wherewithal to not blindly support your religion's race to theocracy and madness. This is not the case for the rest of the sheep. Case in point, The Third Reich. There is no **** way that, or Soviet Communism or Italian Fascism take root in a society based on secular humanist values and critical ethical inquiry. All three of those abominations arose in deeply religious nations - Germany, Russia and Italy where a brainwashed populace was already primed by christianity to believe in nonsense and cower blindly to authority. This is the real danger of religion.

[quote]

This is rank nonsense.

First, the Third Reich and Italian Fascism took root for two chief reasons. One, because the leaders capitalized on dire economic conditions and promised economic prosperity. Two, because the leaders concealed their darker purposes and intentions until they were fully entrenched in power.

Second, contrary to your claim, it was the religious who were the most vocal and vociferous opponents of the Third Reich, Mussolini and Soviet Communism -- and they suffered for their opposition. Second to the 6,000,000 Jews who died in concentration, Catholics were targeted by the Nazis for their opposition to Third Reich and their support of Jews, and Catholics were the second most frequent victims of the Holocaust. And they were specifically targeted for their opposition of the Third Reich and their support of the Jews in Europe.

And just who were the tens of millions of people send to the gulags by Stalin? They were the Russian Orthodox who refused to accede to the demand of state-mandated atheism. The price they paid for their opposition to the "humanist" government was a one-way ticket to a gulag, where they were intentionally starved to death (under the weak claim that there was a famine).

So, in fact, it was the religious of Germany, Italy, and Russia that defied the governments of those nations. The argument that it was the strong religious tradition of those countries which made these "humanist" monstrosities holds no water and has no historical support. In fact, it is a "blame the victim" argument.

BTW, if you want to see the most articulate statement of "secular humanism," you should read the Soviet Constitution.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by LeadBolt »

kalm wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote:The only complaint that non-believers should have towards believers is if they are constantly berated for not believing. Not sure if that is the case in everyday life for any of you. In this forum however, it is the non-believers that do the majority of the berating. Interesting. Why is that?
1) It's a semi-anonymous football forum.

2) Why shouldn't I complain about religion's influence on politics, laws, and culture? Why shouldn't I complain about the numerous people I know personally who were negatively impacted by their parent's religious beliefs...Mormon kids forced to marry due to teen pregnancy, children disowned because they weren't true believers, etc? Why can't I have an issue with free-loading, parasitic churches, not paying taxes like the rest of us?

3) Hypocrisy and superstition are entertaining.

4) Religion does a ton of good and I really have no personal problems with anyone's personal beliefs.
Source?
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by LeadBolt »

I know that because I am a Christian I will face ridicule. I stick by my beliefs.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by kalm »

LeadBolt wrote:
kalm wrote:
1) It's a semi-anonymous football forum.

2) Why shouldn't I complain about religion's influence on politics, laws, and culture? Why shouldn't I complain about the numerous people I know personally who were negatively impacted by their parent's religious beliefs...Mormon kids forced to marry due to teen pregnancy, children disowned because they weren't true believers, etc? Why can't I have an issue with free-loading, parasitic churches, not paying taxes like the rest of us?

3) Hypocrisy and superstition are entertaining.

4) Religion does a ton of good and I really have no personal problems with anyone's personal beliefs.
Source?
Observation.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by Grizalltheway »

LeadBolt wrote:I know that because I am a Christian I will face ridicule. I stick by my beliefs.
Payback's a bitch, huh? :coffee:
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by LeadBolt »

Grizalltheway wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:I know that because I am a Christian I will face ridicule. I stick by my beliefs.
Payback's a bitch, huh? :coffee:
It may be, but at least it isn't hell :twocents:
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by 89Hen »

grizzaholic wrote:a claim that, if substantiated, would devalue the core of the Christian faith.
Pass the popcorn
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by D1B »


This is rank nonsense.

First, the Third Reich and Italian Fascism took root for two chief reasons. One, because the leaders capitalized on dire economic conditions and promised economic prosperity. Two, because the leaders concealed their darker purposes and intentions until they were fully entrenched in power.

Second, contrary to your claim, it was the religious who were the most vocal and vociferous opponents of the Third Reich, Mussolini and Soviet Communism -- and they suffered for their opposition. Second to the 6,000,000 Jews who died in concentration, Catholics were targeted by the Nazis for their opposition to Third Reich and their support of Jews, and Catholics were the second most frequent victims of the Holocaust. And they were specifically targeted for their opposition of the Third Reich and their support of the Jews in Europe.

And just who were the tens of millions of people send to the gulags by Stalin? They were the Russian Orthodox who refused to accede to the demand of state-mandated atheism. The price they paid for their opposition to the "humanist" government was a one-way ticket to a gulag, where they were intentionally starved to death (under the weak claim that there was a famine).

So, in fact, it was the religious of Germany, Italy, and Russia that defied the governments of those nations. The argument that it was the strong religious tradition of those countries which made these "humanist" monstrosities holds no water and has no historical support. In fact, it is a "blame the victim" argument.

BTW, if you want to see the most articulate statement of "secular humanism," you should read the Soviet Constitution.

Bullshit. A populace dog trained to believe and worship nonsence is fertile ground for dictators, tyrants and utopian schemes - that's why we witnessed the birth of the most oppressive tyrannies in the most religious nations. History is replete with examples as it's been happening for several thousand years.

Another point you consistently fail to address is religion's impotence in stopping these brutal aberrations. One would think with all the promises of salvation, life everlasting and hope, and claims of moral and ethical superiority, people would not be so easily led astray or so willing to acquiesce to non christian authority. I know why you don't address it, we all do. You know in your heart moral systems that are not based on, or even eschew critical ethical inquiry like yours does, are doomed to fail when the shit hits the fan. A glaring contemporary example being the Catholic Church's breathtaking evil in dealing with the child molestation scandal. Orgs where self-preservation trumps sound ethical judgement are doomed to fail when people need them the most, like when the catholic church partnered with Hitler and signed the Concordat. Rather than having the courage and conviction to the do the tough but ethically right thing, they acquiesced thus legitimizing Hitler's regime for the world. The catholic church partnered with Hitler.

You also conveniently ignore the antisemitism. Hitler was able to parlay the hatred of Jews, fomented by christians/catholics for centuries, into the perfect smokescreen for atrocity.

Yeah, sure a few religious stood up to the tyranny, but it was too few and too late to stop the deaths of 65 million people. What ultimately stopped the madness was a governement based on secular humanist priciples and critical ethical inquiry - USA :nod: .

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Text book example of cowardice.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by Ibanez »

JJ,

How many times in one paragraph are you going to say Catholics were targeted for their opposition to the Third Reich and support of Jews? Bad copy and past job?
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by D1B »

JoltinJoe wrote:
D1B wrote: You also appear to have the wherewithal to not blindly support your religion's race to theocracy and madness. This is not the case for the rest of the sheep. Case in point, The Third Reich. There is no **** way that, or Soviet Communism or Italian Fascism take root in a society based on secular humanist values and critical ethical inquiry. All three of those abominations arose in deeply religious nations - Germany, Russia and Italy where a brainwashed populace was already primed by christianity to believe in nonsense and cower blindly to authority. This is the real danger of religion.
Sorry, had to do two responses to deal with your errors...

The Gulags were filled primarily with political prisoners and victims of Stalin's psychopathy. Sure there were religious objectors but their numbers pale in comparison.

Again, sure a few catholics may have bristled a bit and raised a stink regarding the TR. The issue though is they did virtually nothing compared to their capacity. I'm not going to belabor this because your soon-to-be-sainted pope officially apoligized for the catholic church's "inaction during the holocaust." So who is right here? You or the pope?

Finally, how does a tyrant conceal his intentions from millions of people - supposed adherents to the blessed word of Jesus? They cant. They need help. Hitler didn't shove those Jews into the ovens or set up the concentration camp network. Hitler didn't train people not to question authority. In fact, Hitler never hid his intentions period, it was all in Mein Kampf. People failed to think. Same goes for the rest of em. The gulag operators, secret police, murderes, law makers etc were willing conspirators, all of whom were christians or catholics.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by Ibanez »

D1B wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
Sorry, had to do two responses to deal with your errors...

The Gulags were filled primarily with political prisoners and victims of Stalin's psychopathy. Sure there were religious objectors but their numbers pale in comparison.

Again, sure a few catholics may have bristled a bit and raised a stink regarding the TR. The issue though is they did virtually nothing compared to their capacity. I'm not going to belabor this because your soon-to-be-sainted pope officially apoligized for the catholic church's "inaction during the holocaust." So who is right here? You or the pope?

Finally, how does a tyrant conceal his intentions from millions of people - supposed adherents to the blessed word of Jesus? They cant. They need help. Hitler didn't shove those Jews into the ovens or set up the concentration camp network. Hitler didn't train people not to question authority. In fact, Hitler never hid his intentions period, it was all in Mein Kampf. People failed to think. Same goes for the rest of em. The gulag operators, secret police, murderes, law makers etc were willing conspirators, all of whom were christians or catholics.
There is a book titled, Hitlers Willing Executioners, and it goes into great detail about how Hitler was able to essentially brainwash so many people. With Antisemitism being so profound in the late 19th Century, early 20th Century, it was easy to make Jews the culprit for ever problem. Who lost us the war? Jews? Why are you broke and hungry? Jews. You give people a scapegoat and tell them at every turn who is to blame, eventually the people will believe it and will do what ever the government say.
Spoiler: show
Jews are to blame. Republicans are to blame. It's all the same. :rofl:
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by JoltinJoe »

D1B wrote:
JoltinJoe wrote:
Sorry, had to do two responses to deal with your errors...

The Gulags were filled primarily with political prisoners and victims of Stalin's psychopathy. Sure there were religious objectors but their numbers pale in comparison.

Again, sure a few catholics may have bristled a bit and raised a stink regarding the TR. The issue though is they did virtually nothing compared to their capacity. I'm not going to belabor this because your soon-to-be-sainted pope officially apoligized for the catholic church's "inaction during the holocaust." So who is right here? You or the pope?

Finally, how does a tyrant conceal his intentions from millions of people - supposed adherents to the blessed word of Jesus? They cant. They need help. Hitler didn't shove those Jews into the ovens or set up the concentration camp network. Hitler didn't train people not to question authority. In fact, Hitler never hid his intentions period, it was all in Mein Kampf. People failed to think. Same goes for the rest of em. The gulag operators, secret police, murderes, law makers etc were willing conspirators, all of whom were christians or catholics.
There were no errors in my post.

A "few" Catholics?

Of the 11 million Holocaust victims, six million were Polish. Half of the Polish victims were Jewish. The other three million were targeted for their support of the Jews. While there is no precise count of how many of those three million non-Jewish Poles were Catholics, Poland is over 90% Catholic, so we can assume the vast majority of them were Catholics. And that's just in Poland.

BTW, don't put quotes around "inaction during the Holocaust." That's media spin. The Pope didn't really say that when he apologized. He apologized for the actions of those Catholics who did not oppose the Holocaust. He never said Catholicism itself was inactive (the contention that Catholicism was inactive would be a historical inaccuracy).

You say the gulags were full of "political prisoners," but that is just word play. Those religious who opposed the state was deemed "political opposition." Again, the numbers are not precise, but a sure way to earn a trip to the gulag under Stalin was to speak out publicly against the repression of the Russian Orthodox Church.


While Mein Kampf was no doubt a plain utilitarian express of anti-semitism, nothing in the book suggested Hitler intended a mass extermination of the Jews.

Finally, Germany was nearly 70 percent Lutheran when Hitler came to power. Given Luther's own anti-semitic writings, Lutheranism was especially ripe to be exploited by the tactic of scapegoating the Jews.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:free-loading, parasitic churches
Which ones are those?
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Re: Jesus was made up

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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by andy7171 »

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:free-loading, parasitic churches
Which ones are those?
It must be a completely different world out past the Mississippi.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by CAA Flagship »

andy7171 wrote:
89Hen wrote: Which ones are those?
It must be a completely different world out past the Mississippi.
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Re: Jesus was made up

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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by D1B »

JoltinJoe wrote:
D1B wrote:
Sorry, had to do two responses to deal with your errors...

The Gulags were filled primarily with political prisoners and victims of Stalin's psychopathy. Sure there were religious objectors but their numbers pale in comparison.

Again, sure a few catholics may have bristled a bit and raised a stink regarding the TR. The issue though is they did virtually nothing compared to their capacity. I'm not going to belabor this because your soon-to-be-sainted pope officially apoligized for the catholic church's "inaction during the holocaust." So who is right here? You or the pope?

Finally, how does a tyrant conceal his intentions from millions of people - supposed adherents to the blessed word of Jesus? They cant. They need help. Hitler didn't shove those Jews into the ovens or set up the concentration camp network. Hitler didn't train people not to question authority. In fact, Hitler never hid his intentions period, it was all in Mein Kampf. People failed to think. Same goes for the rest of em. The gulag operators, secret police, murderes, law makers etc were willing conspirators, all of whom were christians or catholics.
There were no errors in my post.

A "few" Catholics?

Of the 11 million Holocaust victims, six million were Polish. Half of the Polish victims were Jewish. The other three million were targeted for their support of the Jews. While there is no precise count of how many of those three million non-Jewish Poles were Catholics, Poland is over 90% Catholic, so we can assume the vast majority of them were Catholics. And that's just in Poland.

BTW, don't put quotes around "inaction during the Holocaust." That's media spin. The Pope didn't really say that when he apologized. He apologized for the actions of those Catholics who did not oppose the Holocaust. He never said Catholicism itself was inactive (the contention that Catholicism was inactive would be a historical inaccuracy).

You say the gulags were full of "political prisoners," but that is just word play. Those religious who opposed the state was deemed "political opposition." Again, the numbers are not precise, but a sure way to earn a trip to the gulag under Stalin was to speak out publicly against the repression of the Russian Orthodox Church.


While Mein Kampf was no doubt a plain utilitarian express of anti-semitism, nothing in the book suggested Hitler intended a mass extermination of the Jews.

Finally, Germany was nearly 70 percent Lutheran when Hitler came to power. Given Luther's own anti-semitic writings, Lutheranism was especially ripe to be exploited by the tactic of scapegoating the Jews.

Sure, the catholics were active - their leaders signed a partnership agreement with Hitler and the vast majority of them were silent while Hitler and Mussolini ravaged Europe. Your beloved pope said as much.

Luther, like Hitler was a catholic. :nod: Nice spin, but the origins of modern antisemitism are catholic/christian. Again, your beloved pope said as much.

Your catholic victim crap is crap. Poles were killed not because they were catholic, but because they were Poles.

No amount of revisionism will rehabilitate the church's abysmal record of poor behavior and lack of courage during last century. You would be better served to follow the lead of your popes and just apologize and hope people forget.

Those days where the church wrote all the history books and burned the ones they didn't like and abused their total control over the scared and ignorant are over.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by andy7171 »

"Elaine, you're from Baltimore, right?"
"Yes, well, Towson actually."
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by 89Hen »

D1B wrote:Luther, like Hitler was a catholic. :nod:
So are you using this logic.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by Screamin_Eagle174 »

LeadBolt wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Payback's a bitch, huh? :coffee:
It may be, but at least it isn't a scary made up place to keep christians attending church and giving them their $. :twocents:
FIFY
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by andy7171 »

Screamin_Eagle174 wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:
It may be, but at least it isn't a scary made up place to keep christians attending church and giving them their $. :twocents:
FIFY
Yeah. Hell is uniquely a Christian thing. :roll:
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by Grizalltheway »

andy7171 wrote:
Screamin_Eagle174 wrote:
FIFY
Yeah. Hell is uniquely a Christian thing. :roll:
No shit. He was responding to someone who identifies as Christian.
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Re: Jesus was made up

Post by Screamin_Eagle174 »

andy7171 wrote:
Screamin_Eagle174 wrote:
FIFY
Yeah. Hell is uniquely a Christian thing. :roll:
Of course it isn't. A lot of organized religions use it to keep their sheeple following them.
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