Wake Up Call

[Chizzang]

It doesn't...

Sure it does. Do you really think the excise tax (i.e a tax on the sales, not a tax on profit) on medical devices won't have the effect of reducing the amount of research or innovation in that field? People like to make money from their efforts and when people see that their cannot profit from a particular line of research or innovation they tend to work on something else. Again, we have a vaccination market, globally, that doesn't really come up with new vaccinations anymore and when they do, the rollout is limited, the supply is minimal, and mostly it's because there is no way to profit from those endevours. Governments typically are the consumers in this market and they set a price and there is no competition. You get whatever they are willing to pay. It does result in real cheap vaccinations, but it also results in limited supply and a general lack of new and innovative vaccinations.

To say that we are only managing how insurance is managed is disingenious. This has never been and isn't now soley about health insurance. Medicare is basically just insurance, but its impact on the pricing and availability of medical care is pretty profound. How we treat people and medically care for people is certainly affected by the way the insurance is managed - why else would we even be discussin this issue?

You're argument is interesting but flawed
If the Bio-Med industry wasn't a 500 billion dollar a year monster I'd say sure you have a point, lets not cripple this struggling delicate new micro-economy

But today
It's going to take a lot more than "Obama Care" to effect the Biomed / Pharma colossus machine

Its similar to the argument Exxon Mobil and Royal Dutch Shell use
when anybody mentions we should put environment over extraction
It's going to KILL the INDUSTRY model that's in place... and yet

[BDKJMU]

Really? Everyone's insurance is going up 100+%? Did you read the article? Some people saw a reduction.

True, some people voted for Obama, and now their insurance went way up, but some peoples insurance went down. There might even be some people who voted for Romney and had their insurance drop.

Read a story about a Republican official in the south - has diabetes, owns a small business - his premiums dropped $10,000/year.

And he's probably older with a pre existing condition. The insurance companies are going to lose $$$ hand over fist insuring him. Only be able to charge him x when their cost will be multiple times x. And guess who's going to pay for it? The young (especially male), healthy, middle income and up that get their insurance from the individual market...

[BDKJMU]

Everyone in their 20s-30s in the individual market, no pre existing conditions saw huge increases...

Well, except for when they need it - you know, the uninsured, gets hurt in accident, goes to ER, we all pay for that. Overall, It will be a wash or a reduction for that age group. They are generally health-system freeloaders.

You're delusuional if you believe that. Who do you think are going to be subsidizing the older and less healthy, who are going to consume far more health care services than they are going to be paying for? The younger, healthy.....

[BDKJMU]

Perhaps the Tea Party will support Baby Boomer euthanasia in exchange for passing the continuing resolution and raising the debt ceiling. They seem like caring, compassionate people.

Hey, you should thank the TEA Party. You're going to get a 2-3 week paid vacation because of them...

[BDKJMU]

Am I the only one who laughed when I read this article..?
What do we think is going to happen when


1) We have insurance companies write our healthcare policy
2) We have profiteers and oil companies structure our Foreign Policy
3) Weapons manufacturers and Defense contractors determine our global military needs
4) Exxon Mobil and Royal Dutch shell employees out number biologists on our Environmental committees

Everything is for sale baby... get in line
the $700 trillion is going fast

What $700 trillion? We don't have any money....

Yeah we do. Whatever $$$ we need, the Treasury will just print.....

[kalm]

Read a story about a Republican official in the south - has diabetes, owns a small business - his premiums dropped $10,000/year.

And he's probably older with a pre existing condition. The insurance companies are going to lose $$$ hand over fist insuring him. Only be able to charge him x when their cost will be multiple times x. And guess who's going to pay for it? The young (especially male), healthy, middle income and up that get their insurance from the individual market...

Aka the insurance business.

[89Hen]

Read a story about a Republican official in the south - has diabetes, owns a small business - his premiums dropped $10,000/year.

And he's probably older with a pre existing condition. The insurance companies are going to lose $$$ hand over fist insuring him. Only be able to charge him x when their cost will be multiple times x. And guess who's going to pay for it? The young (especially male), healthy, middle income and up that get their insurance from the individual market...

Sounds a bit like socialism.

[93henfan]

Perhaps the Tea Party will support Baby Boomer euthanasia in exchange for passing the continuing resolution and raising the debt ceiling. They seem like caring, compassionate people.

Hey, you should thank the TEA Party. You're going to get a 2-3 week paid vacation because of them...

Fail. I was recalled to work on Sunday night. I may or may not get paid for the three and a half days I was sent home last week. I will never be paid the 20% furlough reduction that DoD endured over the summer.

[Grizalltheway]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial ... picks=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BDKJMU]

Hey, you should thank the TEA Party. You're going to get a 2-3 week paid vacation because of them...

Fail. I was recalled to work on Sunday night. I may or may not get paid for the three and a half days I was sent home last week. I will never be paid the 20% furlough reduction that DoD endured over the summer.

My bad- forgot you mentioned in the other thread you'd been recalled. Most non exempt fed employees will likely get a 2-3 week paid vacation though....

[GannonFan]

It's not an absolute, but a matter of degrees. There will still be innovations, of course, just a question of how many. We still develop new vaccinations, but we're also still manually injecting material into chicken eggs to incubate many of those vaccines because it hasn't been worth anyone's time to develop and commercialize a better method. How much more would we do if that market wasn't essentially single payer as it is today? A lot more, for sure, but hard to say. Same with healthcare, there will always be innovations (and certainly ones that drive down the cost), but the flow will definitely slow down.

The United States Military is single payer too.

Yes, it is, and a wonderfully efficient and worthwhile model to follow, isn't it?

Of course, it also has the benefit of being able to develop things for the military, and then several years later when what was developed isn't as cutting edge anymore, it is no longer restricted to the military and it no longer is a single payer market. The innovation of GPS did pretty well once the military decided it didn't need exclusivity to it anymore.

[DSUrocks07]

And he's probably older with a pre existing condition. The insurance companies are going to lose $$$ hand over fist insuring him. Only be able to charge him x when their cost will be multiple times x. And guess who's going to pay for it? The young (especially male), healthy, middle income and up that get their insurance from the individual market...

Sounds a bit like socialism.

Sounds exactly like Social Security to me, the original Pyramid scheme.

[GannonFan]

Sure it does. Do you really think the excise tax (i.e a tax on the sales, not a tax on profit) on medical devices won't have the effect of reducing the amount of research or innovation in that field? People like to make money from their efforts and when people see that their cannot profit from a particular line of research or innovation they tend to work on something else. Again, we have a vaccination market, globally, that doesn't really come up with new vaccinations anymore and when they do, the rollout is limited, the supply is minimal, and mostly it's because there is no way to profit from those endevours. Governments typically are the consumers in this market and they set a price and there is no competition. You get whatever they are willing to pay. It does result in real cheap vaccinations, but it also results in limited supply and a general lack of new and innovative vaccinations.

To say that we are only managing how insurance is managed is disingenious. This has never been and isn't now soley about health insurance. Medicare is basically just insurance, but its impact on the pricing and availability of medical care is pretty profound. How we treat people and medically care for people is certainly affected by the way the insurance is managed - why else would we even be discussin this issue?

You're argument is interesting but flawed
If the Bio-Med industry wasn't a 500 billion dollar a year monster I'd say sure you have a point, lets not cripple this struggling delicate new micro-economy

But today
It's going to take a lot more than "Obama Care" to effect the Biomed / Pharma colossus machine

Its similar to the argument Exxon Mobil and Royal Dutch Shell use
when anybody mentions we should put environment over extraction
It's going to KILL the INDUSTRY model that's in place... and yet

I'm not talking about the viability of the industry - of course there will always be the Biomed/Pharma industry. What's at stake is the innovation when only a single payer is involved. The comparison to Big Oil is a bad one - I know of roughly 5 billion individual payers when it comes to petroleum products, and no amount of regulation is attempting to reduce that to one.

[93henfan]

Fail. I was recalled to work on Sunday night. I may or may not get paid for the three and a half days I was sent home last week. I will never be paid the 20% furlough reduction that DoD endured over the summer.

My bad- forgot you mentioned in the other thread you'd been recalled. Most non exempt fed employees will likely get a 2-3 week paid vacation though....

Define vacation. i was recalled ten and a half hours before my reporting time to work. Unless you call hanging out at home a vacation, I was not on vacation.

October is a big month for vacations among acquisition folks like myself, who are customarily put in a no-leave period in August and September due to fiscal year end workload. The shutdown has wreaked havoc on a lot of folks' vacation plans because they were put in furlough status which could potentially place them awol if they were recalled and did not report the next day.

[Chizzang]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial ... picks=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fascinating... this is completely NEW information for me

"Meanwhile, the likely benefits of Obamacare for small businesses are enormous. To begin with, it’ll make it easier for people to start their own companies—which has always been a risky proposition in the U.S., because you couldn’t be sure of finding affordable health insurance. As John Arensmeyer, who heads the advocacy group Small Business Majority, and is himself a former small-business owner, told me, “In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, but we’ve had this bizarre disincentive in the system that’s kept people from starting new businesses.” Purely for the sake of health insurance, people stay in jobs they aren’t suited to—a phenomenon that economists call “job lock.” “With the new law, job lock goes away,” Arensmeyer said. “Anyone who wants to start a business can do so independent of the health-care costs.” Studies show that people who are freed from job lock (for instance, when they start qualifying for Medicare) are more likely to undertake something entrepreneurial, and one recent study projects that Obamacare could enable 1.5 million people to become self-employed."

[Grizalltheway]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial ... picks=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fascinating... this is completely NEW information for me

"Meanwhile, the likely benefits of Obamacare for small businesses are enormous. To begin with, it’ll make it easier for people to start their own companies—which has always been a risky proposition in the U.S., because you couldn’t be sure of finding affordable health insurance. As John Arensmeyer, who heads the advocacy group Small Business Majority, and is himself a former small-business owner, told me, “In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, but we’ve had this bizarre disincentive in the system that’s kept people from starting new businesses.” Purely for the sake of health insurance, people stay in jobs they aren’t suited to—a phenomenon that economists call “job lock.” “With the new law, job lock goes away,” Arensmeyer said. “Anyone who wants to start a business can do so independent of the health-care costs.” Studies show that people who are freed from job lock (for instance, when they start qualifying for Medicare) are more likely to undertake something entrepreneurial, and one recent study projects that Obamacare could enable 1.5 million people to become self-employed."

Even more fascinating are the crickets from conks on the subject.

[93henfan]

i'm not a Conk, but you want to know what will be an even bigger eliminator of "job lock"?

Unemployment.

[Cap'n Cat]

Fascinating... this is completely NEW information for me

"Meanwhile, the likely benefits of Obamacare for small businesses are enormous. To begin with, it’ll make it easier for people to start their own companies—which has always been a risky proposition in the U.S., because you couldn’t be sure of finding affordable health insurance. As John Arensmeyer, who heads the advocacy group Small Business Majority, and is himself a former small-business owner, told me, “In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, but we’ve had this bizarre disincentive in the system that’s kept people from starting new businesses.” Purely for the sake of health insurance, people stay in jobs they aren’t suited to—a phenomenon that economists call “job lock.” “With the new law, job lock goes away,” Arensmeyer said. “Anyone who wants to start a business can do so independent of the health-care costs.” Studies show that people who are freed from job lock (for instance, when they start qualifying for Medicare) are more likely to undertake something entrepreneurial, and one recent study projects that Obamacare could enable 1.5 million people to become self-employed."

Even more fascinating are the crickets from conks on the subject.

Just hang on, Gway. Z will have some banal five-word answer to refute.

[AZGrizFan]

Fascinating... this is completely NEW information for me

"Meanwhile, the likely benefits of Obamacare for small businesses are enormous. To begin with, it’ll make it easier for people to start their own companies—which has always been a risky proposition in the U.S., because you couldn’t be sure of finding affordable health insurance. As John Arensmeyer, who heads the advocacy group Small Business Majority, and is himself a former small-business owner, told me, “In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, but we’ve had this bizarre disincentive in the system that’s kept people from starting new businesses.” Purely for the sake of health insurance, people stay in jobs they aren’t suited to—a phenomenon that economists call “job lock.” “With the new law, job lock goes away,” Arensmeyer said. “Anyone who wants to start a business can do so independent of the health-care costs.” Studies show that people who are freed from job lock (for instance, when they start qualifying for Medicare) are more likely to undertake something entrepreneurial, and one recent study projects that Obamacare could enable 1.5 million people to become self-employed."

Even more fascinating are the crickets from conks on the subject.

What's fascinating is you have "conks" a whole 10 minutes to respond. Unlike most Donks, the Conks on this board are all gainfully employed and can't spend every waking moment defending conk honor on the internet.

This argument is a non-starter. I know many small businessmen, some with zero employees, on up to some with 10-12 employees....ALL were able to get healthcare on an individual basis prior to this law. Most people who are entrepenureal in nature find a way to become their own boss. Most who just THINK they want to be their own boss find out very quickly that they can't survive the fluctuations in income inherent in any small business and long for the "steady paycheck" days. It has very little to do with healthcare...

[AZGrizFan]

Even more fascinating are the crickets from conks on the subject.

Just hang on, Gway. Z will have some banal five-word answer to refute.

As opposed to this riveting 13 word treatise?

[Grizalltheway]

Even more fascinating are the crickets from conks on the subject.

What's fascinating is you have "conks" a whole 10 minutes to respond. Unlike most Donks, the Conks on this board are all gainfully employed and can't spend every waking moment defending conk honor on the internet.

This argument is a non-starter. I know many small businessmen, some with zero employees, on up to some with 10-12 employees....ALL were able to get healthcare on an individual basis prior to this law. Most people who are entrepenureal in nature find a way to become their own boss. Most who just THINK they want to be their own boss find out very quickly that they can't survive the fluctuations in income inherent in any small business and long for the "steady paycheck" days. It has very little to do with healthcare...

Get bent, Mr. 36,000 posts.

And I gave you two hours, not ten minutes.

[Chizzang]

Even more fascinating are the crickets from conks on the subject.

What's fascinating is you have "conks" a whole 10 minutes to respond. Unlike most Donks, the Conks on this board are all gainfully employed and can't spend every waking moment defending conk honor on the internet.

This argument is a non-starter. I know many small businessmen, some with zero employees, on up to some with 10-12 employees....ALL were able to get healthcare on an individual basis prior to this law. Most people who are entrepenureal in nature find a way to become their own boss. Most who just THINK they want to be their own boss find out very quickly that they can't survive the fluctuations in income inherent in any small business and long for the "steady paycheck" days. It has very little to do with healthcare...

So you're admitting that Obama Care isn't bad for the 96% of American Businesses...?


interesting...

[Cap'n Cat]

Just hang on, Gway. Z will have some banal five-word answer to refute.

As opposed to this riveting 13 word treatise?

Ahem. Was talking to G, Milford. You were NOT invited.

[Baldy]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial ... picks=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fascinating... this is completely NEW information for me

"Meanwhile, the likely benefits of Obamacare for small businesses are enormous. To begin with, it’ll make it easier for people to start their own companies—which has always been a risky proposition in the U.S., because you couldn’t be sure of finding affordable health insurance. As John Arensmeyer, who heads the advocacy group Small Business Majority, and is himself a former small-business owner, told me, “In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, but we’ve had this bizarre disincentive in the system that’s kept people from starting new businesses.” Purely for the sake of health insurance, people stay in jobs they aren’t suited to—a phenomenon that economists call “job lock.” “With the new law, job lock goes away,” Arensmeyer said. “Anyone who wants to start a business can do so independent of the health-care costs.” Studies show that people who are freed from job lock (for instance, when they start qualifying for Medicare) are more likely to undertake something entrepreneurial, and one recent study projects that Obamacare could enable 1.5 million people to become self-employed."

Of course it's completely NEW information, Cleets. It's a totally made-up brand new phenomenon.
The "Small Business Majority" is a fringe lefty group for fringe lefty entrepreneurs. It is a trove of biased and inaccurate information for a biased and inaccurate rag like the New Yorker.

[Cap'n Cat]

Fascinating... this is completely NEW information for me

"Meanwhile, the likely benefits of Obamacare for small businesses are enormous. To begin with, it’ll make it easier for people to start their own companies—which has always been a risky proposition in the U.S., because you couldn’t be sure of finding affordable health insurance. As John Arensmeyer, who heads the advocacy group Small Business Majority, and is himself a former small-business owner, told me, “In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, but we’ve had this bizarre disincentive in the system that’s kept people from starting new businesses.” Purely for the sake of health insurance, people stay in jobs they aren’t suited to—a phenomenon that economists call “job lock.” “With the new law, job lock goes away,” Arensmeyer said. “Anyone who wants to start a business can do so independent of the health-care costs.” Studies show that people who are freed from job lock (for instance, when they start qualifying for Medicare) are more likely to undertake something entrepreneurial, and one recent study projects that Obamacare could enable 1.5 million people to become self-employed."

Of course it's completely NEW information, Cleets. It's a totally made-up brand new phenomenon.
The "Small Business Majority" is a fringe lefty group for fringe lefty entrepreneurs. It is a trove of biased and inaccurate information for a biased and inaccurate rag like the New Yorker.

Conk paranoia, Limbaugh style.