Government shutdowns and public relations

[93henfan]

What they're doing is part of the legislative process. There is absolutely nothing inherently "wrong" with it.

Otherwise, it amazes me that you place no blame on the Democrats. Yes, the House Republicans are saying they are willing to see government "shut down" rather than put forth a continuing resolution without anything related to impeding the Affordable Care Act in it. But the Senate Republicans and the President are just as certainly saying they are willing to see government "shut down" if they don't get THEIR way. Additionally, it is clear that the Republicans have been willing to try to adjust and compromise a little on the point while the Democrats have adopted a strict "We will not negotiate" posture.

Really. Why can't the Democrats agree to fund the things both sides agree on funding? Like I posted a video about the Republicans putting forth action to fund NIH. Both sides agree on funding that. Why can't the Democrats just agree to fund it?

If you can both agree on what to fund why not do it? The Republicans are willing to do that. The Democrats are not.

Think about it. Go back to the beginning. There was agreement on funding everything but the Affordable Care Act. It was the Democrat side that said, "If you will not also fund the thing we DON'T agree on we will not agree to fund ANY of it."

Blaming the Republicans for the Democrats refusing to sign off on funding what everybody agrees to is insane. But it's widespread.

Regardless of your feelings on the ACA, you have to admit that there was zero chance of anything getting approved when the GOP attached their ACA amendments. You have to admit it was purely political and symbolic. The Republicans fucked this up. The Moderate Republicans need to retake their party.

[YoUDeeMan]

What they're doing is part of the legislative process. There is absolutely nothing inherently "wrong" with it.

Otherwise, it amazes me that you place no blame on the Democrats. Yes, the House Republicans are saying they are willing to see government "shut down" rather than put forth a continuing resolution without anything related to impeding the Affordable Care Act in it. But the Senate Republicans and the President are just as certainly saying they are willing to see government "shut down" if they don't get THEIR way. Additionally, it is clear that the Republicans have been willing to try to adjust and compromise a little on the point while the Democrats have adopted a strict "We will not negotiate" posture.

Really. Why can't the Democrats agree to fund the things both sides agree on funding? Like I posted a video about the Republicans putting forth action to fund NIH. Both sides agree on funding that. Why can't the Democrats just agree to fund it?

If you can both agree on what to fund why not do it? The Republicans are willing to do that. The Democrats are not.

Think about it. Go back to the beginning. There was agreement on funding everything but the Affordable Care Act. It was the Democrat side that said, "If you will not also fund the thing we DON'T agree on we will not agree to fund ANY of it."

Blaming the Republicans for the Democrats refusing to sign off on funding what everybody agrees to is insane. But it's widespread.

Regardless of your feelings on the ACA, you have to admit that there was zero chance of anything getting approved when the GOP attached their ACA amendments. You have to admit it was purely political and symbolic. The Republicans fucked this up. The Moderate Republicans need to retake their party.

Why? Reduce the size and expenditures of our government. Plain and simple.

If this is a wake up call, then I'm all for it.

[93henfan]

Wake up calls are always great when it's someone else's paycheck and not yours. Congress is still getting paid. So are all of their aides. They don't have to look anyone in the eye that has to figure out how to feed their kids, pay their mortgage, etc.

[93henfan]

Nice work Tea Party. Markets getting spooked, down a percent already today. Dow down in the 14Ks.

Another $300M in salaries pulled out of the economy today.

Maybe they'll continue pounding their fists through the 17th and allow the nation to default on its debt too.

Nice work Tea Party.

[JohnStOnge]

Regardless of your feelings on the ACA, you have to admit that there was zero chance of anything getting approved when the GOP attached their ACA amendments. You have to admit it was purely political and symbolic.

I think there was zero chance of having the Democrats immediately accept the initial submission. And there may be zero chance of them agreeing to ANYTHING that has to do with the Affordable Care Act. Time will tell.

But I don't think this was symbolic. I do think the Republicans want to scuttle the Affordable Care Act and that this is part of that.

And I still think the Democrats are wrong for not going ahead and agreeing to fund what both sides can agree upon funding. So let's say both sides agreed on all funding except the Republicans won't agree to fund the Affordable Care Act. If the Republicans are clearly wrong for doing that then the Democrats should be able to make hay out of it. They should be able to say "We can't move forward with the Affordable Care Act to the extent that we wanted to because the Republicans refused to fund it. If you want to get rid of this kind of thing vote against Republicans in the next House elections."

Then if the People disagree with them they could vote against the Republicans in the next House election. There is absolutely no good reason to refuse to authorize spending on all the things the two sides agree on because the other side won't agree to authorize spending on one thing. The Democrats say that the Republicans are holding the whole thing hostage to get one thing but that's exactly what the DEMOCRATS are doing. It's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. There's no good reason for doing what they're doing unless one says that them calculating that it'll give them a political advantage in the next election is a good reason.

[bluehenbillk]

Regardless of your feelings on the ACA, you have to admit that there was zero chance of anything getting approved when the GOP attached their ACA amendments. You have to admit it was purely political and symbolic. The Republicans **** this up. The Moderate Republicans need to retake their party.

Why? Reduce the size and expenditures of our government. Plain and simple.

If this is a wake up call, then I'm all for it.

I agree with this.

In essence the GOP is fighting the wrong war and should shift fronts immediately. The majority of the American public is going to side with the Democrats on the shutdown. From the Ted Cruz antics to the Supreme Court challenge of Obamacare to the fact it's already up & running. If I'm the GOP I try sending a bill through that funds Obamacare but does something popular too like kills the Medical Device Excise Tax & I'd bet the Senate would pass it & then we could move on.

What we could move onto is to where the GOP would have much better leverage, the debt ceiling fight. Do we spend WWWWWAAAAAYYYYYY to much as a federal government? If you answer anything other than yes you are either an ultra-liberal or you need your head examined, and yes I know those two are in essence one in the same. Harry Reid & Obama will take their turn in the minority of public opinion saying we just need to do business as usual & lift the debt ceiling. The GOP needs to come to the table however with some reasonable specific areas to cut government waste/expenditures in exchange for raising the debt ceiling. Otherwise the Democrats are just going to continue to pay lip service to the debt & government spending - in this instance the Tea Party is definitely on the mark & should start putting their efforts towards this fight because the longer they keep up the shutdown I'm afraid less people will want to listen to them moving forward.

[kalm]

Wake up calls are always great when it's someone else's paycheck and not yours. Congress is still getting paid. So are all of their aides. They don't have to look anyone in the eye that has to figure out how to feed their kids, pay their mortgage, etc.

Yeah...it's really easy to make a principled stand...when you've got no skin in the game.

[JohnStOnge]

Another thing that's happening is that the Democrats are making it impossible for the Republicans to back off, should they choose to back off, in a graceful way. If you're in negotiations and you've got the upper hand you still have to handle things in a way that makes the other side be able to claim that it got something out of it. If you take a "I'm not going to negotiate or give anything" attitude you're going to create a situation in which a situation that might readily be resolved can't be resolved.

And that's exactly what the Democratic side is doing right now. This thing is not likely to end as long as they maintain that posture.

[blueballs]

Nice work Tea Party. Markets getting spooked, down a percent already today. Dow down in the 14Ks.

Another $300M in salaries pulled out of the economy today.

Maybe they'll continue pounding their fists through the 17th and allow the nation to default on its debt too.

Nice work Tea Party.

Go back and check out what 0bama told CNBC yesterday before you blame the GOP on the market's adverse reaction...

[kalm]

Another thing that's happening is that the Democrats are making it impossible for the Republicans to back off, should they choose to back off, in a graceful way. If you're in negotiations and you've got the upper hand you still have to handle things in a way that makes the other side be able to claim that it got something out of it. If you take a "I'm not going to negotiate or give anything" attitude you're going to create a situation in which a situation that might readily be resolved can't be resolved.

And that's exactly what the Democratic side is doing right now. This thing is not likely to end as long as they maintain that posture.

[Ibanez]

What can the GOP gain from this? The Democrat party?

[89Hen]

I guess the one nice side effect of the shutdown for me, Col H, Trip, and 89Hen is that there will be 300,000 less motherfuckers on the road at rush hour in the DC area.

It just took me an hour to get from Fairfax to Manassas (23 miles). Even a shutdown can't save this traffic.

Obama apparently talking in Rockville, MD today and they decided they needed to shut down the beltway and 270 twice (coming and going). I was stopped on a road that goes under the beltway for 25 minutes, just sitting. Keep in mind that the caravan wasn't going on the road I was on, just over the road I was on. Mrs 89 got stuck for 30 minutes in Rockville waiting.

[JohnStOnge]

Another thing that's happening is that the Democrats are making it impossible for the Republicans to back off, should they choose to back off, in a graceful way. If you're in negotiations and you've got the upper hand you still have to handle things in a way that makes the other side be able to claim that it got something out of it. If you take a "I'm not going to negotiate or give anything" attitude you're going to create a situation in which a situation that might readily be resolved can't be resolved.

And that's exactly what the Democratic side is doing right now. This thing is not likely to end as long as they maintain that posture.

You laugh but that's usually the way it works. Part of my job is to evaluate entities and provide consultation on technical matters. But another part of it is to negotiate how problems are going to be addressed. Adversarial situations arise. So I am trained to negotiate. And allowing the other side to save face, regardless of how much evidence you have in support of your side of the argument, is a very important principle. The Democrats aren't doing that at all.

Of course both sides routinely make things more difficult to begin with by publicly insulting each other. I guess that's politics. But I think the Democrats are being worse with respect to that in this particular instance. I think their public statements are much more oriented towards personal attacks and insults than the Republican statements are. I'm not saying it's like that in all instances or even most instances. But it is like that in this one. The Republicans seem to be more focused on attacking the Affordable Care Act and what they see as unfair or bad about it. Referring to the American People not supporting it, etc. The Democrats are more focused on personally insulting the Republicans, calling them names, etc.

[kalm]

You laugh but that's usually the way it works. Part of my job is to evaluate entities and provide consultation on technical matters. But another part of it is to negotiate how problems are going to be addressed. Adversarial situations arise. So I am trained to negotiate. And allowing the other side to save face, regardless of how much evidence you have in support of your side of the argument, is a very important principle. The Democrats aren't doing that at all.

Of course both sides routinely make things more difficult to begin with by publicly insulting each other. I guess that's politics. But I think the Democrats are being worse with respect to that in this particular instance. I think their public statements are much more oriented towards personal attacks and insults than the Republican statements are. I'm not saying it's like that in all instances or even most instances. But it is like that in this one. The Republicans seem to be more focused on attacking the Affordable Care Act and what they see as unfair or bad about it. Referring to the American People not supporting it, etc. The Democrats are more focused on personally insulting the Republicans, calling them names, etc.

Jesus Christ...have you listened at all to the Republican Party since Obama took office...even before the ACA was debated?

Wow.

[JohnStOnge]

he majority of the American public is going to side with the Democrats on the shutdown.

The last poll I looked at (CBS) had 44 percent blaming Republicans more, 35 percent blaming Democrats more, and 17 percent blaming both. What's interesting is that 44 percent is about what percentage approves of Obama's job performance. I noticed that about a week ago when they first showed a poll on Obama's job approval then showed a poll on who people blamed for the then-coming government shut down crisis. If I remember correctly the first poll had 43 percent approving of Obama's performance as President and the second poll had 44 percent blaming Republicans for the shut down crisis. That's essentially equal. No "significant" difference between the two numbers.

So I suspect what you're seeing is that people who would say they approve of Obama's job approval also blame Republicans for the shutdown.

On the other side Republicans are pretty evenly divided over the government shutdown. Right now I don't think there's a lot of evidence in the polls to suggest people will vote differently than they otherwise would have based on this incident. There may be a lot of Republicans who blame both sides right now and fall into that 17 percent but I don't think that means they're likely to vote Democrat. Also don't think an Independent who blames both sides is more likely than otherwise to vote Democrat since that independent sees both sides as being at fault.

[Ibanez]

JSO, what could the GOP had done to avoid the shutdown? Try for the 43rd time to repeal Obamacare? Everyone know that sending that sort of bill to the Democrat Senate is a non-starter. It's bullshit. There is no logic behind it. The GOP should've sent a clean CR, approved it and THEN staged their protest for the ACA. They are fighting the wrong battle, at the wrong time, and in the wrong way. The GOP knew their bill would not pass. They knew it, they aren't idiots.

[YoUDeeMan]

What is so unreasonable about delaying Obamacare for a year?

Obama himself delayed the law of the land for several hand picked entities, so it really can't be that important that the law can't be delayed a year in order to make improvements.

But, oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh no, say that Democrats. We passed a law that YOU will have to follow, but we, and our special interest friends, don't.

CLOWNISH.

Put up barriers and retain guards in an open air memorial?

COMICAL.

Threaten to shut down a football game that will earn more money than it costs to run...in a time when money is tight?

DOPE!

Obama is making calculated moves to hurt specific groups of people so they lash out at Republicans. Obama doesn't give a rat's azz about anyone or anything that isn't on his agenda. Period.

Those veterans should storm the White House and see if Obama would arrest them. The people should run this country...not some bickering fools who insulate themselves from their rules and the rest of the citizenry.

This government of ours is dysfunctional and doesn't give a crap about the ordinary person. In the next election, toss them all out on their azzes. Elect people that will reduce the size and scope of our government.

GO TEA PARTY. Short term pain, long term gain.

[Ibanez]

What is so unreasonable about delaying Obamacare for a year?

Obama himself delayed the law of the land for several hand picked entities, so it really can't be that important that the law can't be delayed a year in order to make improvements.

But, oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh no, say that Democrats. We passed a law that YOU will have to follow, but we, and our special interest friends, don't.

CLOWNISH.

Put up barriers and retain guards in an open air memorial?

COMICAL.

Threaten to shut down a football game that will earn more money than it costs to run...in a time when money is tight?

DOPE!

Obama is making calculated moves to hurt specific groups of people so they lash out at Republicans. Obama doesn't give a rat's azz about anyone or anything that isn't on his agenda. Period.

Those veterans should storm the White House and see if Obama would arrest them. The people should run this country...not some bickering fools who insulate themselves from their rules and the rest of the citizenry.

This government of ours is dysfunctional and doesn't give a crap about the ordinary person. In the next election, toss them all out on their azzes. Elect people that will reduce the size and scope of our government.

GO TEA PARTY. Short term pain, long term gain.

There is nothing unreasonable about delaying Obamacare. It is unreasonable when you know putting the amendments forth will equal no gain because your party does not have the votes in the upper house.

[SDHornet]

JSO, what could the GOP had done to avoid the shutdown? Try for the 43rd time to repeal Obamacare? Everyone know that sending that sort of bill to the Democrat Senate is a non-starter. It's bullshit. There is no logic behind it. The GOP should've sent a clean CR, approved it and THEN staged their protest for the ACA. They are fighting the wrong battle, at the wrong time, and in the wrong way. The GOP knew their bill would not pass. They knew it, they aren't idiots.

So you want the Tea Partiers to ignore the platform they got elected on? Look its basic negotiation tactics 101. The TP started with their extreme “no ACA funding at all” mantra and have moved to a more reasonable “one year individual mandate delay and no Congressional exemption”. A stance the TP would have no leg to stand on had Obama not issued exemptions to unions and most recently the one year delay for big business. The fact is Obama put himself in this situation by picking and choosing who has to participate in this “law of the land” (BTW how the fuck is any of what Obama did with the exemptions and delays legal?).

As ugly as this has been, there is no way a logical person can put this all on the TP. All of them are to blame, and why these discussions haven’t started until a week ago is comical. The Dems and establishment Repubs knew this was coming and no one bothered to pick up the phone to talk about it until recently. As much as I disagree with a lot of what the TP supports, I am glad somebody…hell anybody…is finally giving the establishment politicians the finger and making a point of how hypocritical the establishment parties are.

[SDHornet]

There is nothing unreasonable about delaying Obamacare. It is unreasonable when you know putting the amendments forth will equal no gain because your party does not have the votes in the upper house.

So basically bend over, and don't partake in the built in checks and balances of this government. You're kidding right? Then at what point does anyone stand up to the establishment? After Obama and the Dems get everything they want. Give them the funding now and debt ceiling increase and then negotiate? At that point there will be nothing to negotiate over because the damage will be done. The TP has leverage, it would be foolish of them to not use it. Giving in now and relinquishing that leverage is just bowing to the status quo as the establishment GOP has been doing for decades now.

[YoUDeeMan]

JSO, what could the GOP had done to avoid the shutdown? Try for the 43rd time to repeal Obamacare? Everyone know that sending that sort of bill to the Democrat Senate is a non-starter. It's bullshit. There is no logic behind it. The GOP should've sent a clean CR, approved it and THEN staged their protest for the ACA. They are fighting the wrong battle, at the wrong time, and in the wrong way. The GOP knew their bill would not pass. They knew it, they aren't idiots.

So you want the Tea Partiers to ignore the platform they got elected on? Look its basic negotiation tactics 101. The TP started with their extreme “no ACA funding at all” mantra and have moved to a more reasonable “one year individual mandate delay and no Congressional exemption”. A stance the TP would have no leg to stand on had Obama not issued exemptions to unions and most recently the one year delay for big business. The fact is Obama put himself in this situation by picking and choosing who has to participate in this “law of the land” (BTW how the fuck is any of what Obama did with the exemptions and delays legal?).

As ugly as this has been, there is no way a logical person can put this all on the TP. All of them are to blame, and why these discussions haven’t started until a week ago is comical. The Dems and establishment Repubs knew this was coming and no one bothered to pick up the phone to talk about it until recently. As much as I disagree with a lot of what the TP supports, I am glad somebody…hell anybody…is finally giving the establishment politicians the finger and making a point of how hypocritical the establishment parties are.

Another OUTSTANDING post!

Obama set up his special exemptions for his buddies. F that. Law of the land is for everyone or no one.

Delay Obamacare for everyone or no one.

[Ibanez]

JSO, what could the GOP had done to avoid the shutdown? Try for the 43rd time to repeal Obamacare? Everyone know that sending that sort of bill to the Democrat Senate is a non-starter. It's bullshit. There is no logic behind it. The GOP should've sent a clean CR, approved it and THEN staged their protest for the ACA. They are fighting the wrong battle, at the wrong time, and in the wrong way. The GOP knew their bill would not pass. They knew it, they aren't idiots.

So you want the Tea Partiers to ignore the platform they got elected on? Look its basic negotiation tactics 101. The TP started with their extreme “no ACA funding at all” mantra and have moved to a more reasonable “one year individual mandate delay and no Congressional exemption”. A stance the TP would have no leg to stand on had Obama not issued exemptions to unions and most recently the one year delay for big business. The fact is Obama put himself in this situation by picking and choosing who has to participate in this “law of the land” (BTW how the fuck is any of what Obama did with the exemptions and delays legal?).

As ugly as this has been, there is no way a logical person can put this all on the TP. All of them are to blame, and why these discussions haven’t started until a week ago is comical. The Dems and establishment Repubs knew this was coming and no one bothered to pick up the phone to talk about it until recently. As much as I disagree with a lot of what the TP supports, I am glad somebody…hell anybody…is finally giving the establishment politicians the finger and making a point of how hypocritical the establishment parties are.

They are all to blame and I've said that. But negotiating when you know your demands won't be met, or even discussed is pointless. If I came to you, knowing you will not pay me more than $100 and demand $150, we'd get nowhere, especially if you aren't willing to go up and i'm not willing to go down (no homo). The democrats should have accepted the 1 year delay. That was an easy win right there. But both sides won't back down because any compromise is perceived as weakness.

[SDHornet]

Another OUTSTANDING post!

Obama set up his special exemptions for his buddies. F that. Law of the land is for everyone or no one.

Delay Obamacare for everyone or no one.

It's really that simple.

[Ibanez]

There is nothing unreasonable about delaying Obamacare. It is unreasonable when you know putting the amendments forth will equal no gain because your party does not have the votes in the upper house.

So basically bend over, and don't partake in the built in checks and balances of this government. You're kidding right? Then at what point does anyone stand up to the establishment? After Obama and the Dems get everything they want. Give them the funding now and debt ceiling increase and then negotiate? At that point there will be nothing to negotiate over because the damage will be done. The TP has leverage, it would be foolish of them to not use it. Giving in now and relinquishing that leverage is just bowing to the status quo as the establishment GOP has been doing for decades now.

You have to pick your battles. You have to pick when and where you fight. The TP fights the same losing battle all the time. Change your rhetoric and tactic. I understand checks and balances. If the Democrats were really concerned, they would have gone into conference on Tuesday. That was such a smart move by the GOP. I really have no side in this, I'm not a fan or supporter of the Tea Party or either Party.

[Ibanez]

Another OUTSTANDING post!

Obama set up his special exemptions for his buddies. F that. Law of the land is for everyone or no one.

Delay Obamacare for everyone or no one.

It's really that simple.

I agree. Obama wants to talk about an elitist mentality in the GOP and he pulls that bs. GMAFB.