Poll: Is Rand Paul Presidential Timber?

[Ivytalk]

Thank you for saying exactly what I did. Of course the common people can find middle ground, but we are not policymakers. For the people that matter, there is no middle ground, and our country is paralyzed now because of it.

That's not exactly what you said.

Crap, kalm, you and I could solve the world's problems in half a legal pad and a bottle of tequila.

Except the corporations-are-persons part.

[Ivytalk]

You're welcome!

Except for GannonFan and UNI88, centrism is dead in America.

And you're just as much to blame as anyone else, Grover Norquist, Sr.

Norquist lived in my Harvard house. He was a year or two behind me. Very strange dude: always carried a Samsonite briefcase and walked with huge strides, for a short guy with a mop of blond hair and granny glasses.

[Ibanez]

But he wants to tell you who you can and can't marry. Who to love. Who you can be your beneficiary.

I don't follow Rand Paul's social politics very much, but that sounds uncharacteristic of him. I do know that he used the gay marriage flap to talk about how it is a good example of why government should not be in the marriage business. That doesn't jibe with someone who would want to legislate against gay marriage.

He is a Tea Party guy and a principle of the Tea Party is traditional marriage. If we know anything about the TP, they are all or nothing. So, I can surmise that he is anti-gay rights/marriage.

[AZGrizFan]

I don't follow Rand Paul's social politics very much, but that sounds uncharacteristic of him. I do know that he used the gay marriage flap to talk about how it is a good example of why government should not be in the marriage business. That doesn't jibe with someone who would want to legislate against gay marriage.

He is a Tea Party guy and a principle of the Tea Party is traditional marriage. If we know anything about the TP, they are all or nothing. So, I can surmise that he is anti-gay rights/marriage.

From the Tea Party website...15 core beliefs:

1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.
3. A strong military is essential.
4. Special interests must be eliminated.
5. Gun ownership is sacred.
6. Government must be downsized.
7. The national budget must be balanced.
8. Deficit spending must end.
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.
13. Intrusive government must be stopped.
14. English as our core language is required.
15. Traditional family values are encouraged.

So, if I agree with 14 of the 15 core beliefs, I MUST agree with #15?

[Skjellyfetti]

Gun ownership is SACRED??

What the fuck.

[Chizzang]

Only a few are nutty...
1. Illegal aliens are here illegally / read Obama
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable / Tell Wall Street
3. A strong military is essential / But larger than the next 13 combined..?
4. Special interests must be eliminated / Agreed
5. Gun ownership is sacred / Jeezus even said so
6. Government must be downsized / Agreed
7. The national budget must be balanced / Agreed
8. Deficit spending must end / Agreed = See Military spending for prime offender
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal / Mostly true
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must / We don't have a tax problem we have a spending problem
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory / See above
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens / Never gonna happen, too expensive
13. Intrusive government must be stopped / Agreed
14. English as our core language is required / Nope that's bullshit
15. Traditional family values are encouraged / What does that even mean...

[Ibanez]

He is a Tea Party guy and a principle of the Tea Party is traditional marriage. If we know anything about the TP, they are all or nothing. So, I can surmise that he is anti-gay rights/marriage.

From the Tea Party website...15 core beliefs:

1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.
3. A strong military is essential.
4. Special interests must be eliminated.
5. Gun ownership is sacred.
6. Government must be downsized.
7. The national budget must be balanced.
8. Deficit spending must end.
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.
13. Intrusive government must be stopped.
14. English as our core language is required.
15. Traditional family values are encouraged.

So, if I agree with 14 of the 15 core beliefs, I MUST agree with #15?

You left out the heading for that list "15 Non-negotiable Core Beliefs". You also seem to be ignoring the pattern of Tea Partiers being all or nothing.

Listen, on the surface, I have no problem with their economic policies. Reduce the deficit, require a balanced budget is all good. But socially they aren't anywhere close.

Traditionally family values encouraged? That's a polite way of saying, No Gay marriage which also means gays are second class citizens.

English as our core language is a polite way of saying, Learn the language, you immigrant. And to a point, I agree that if you are going to live here that you should speak the dominant language but is #14 necessary? I've never had trouble communicating with anyone in this country, and I've worked with plenty of immigrants. I know many Americans who could stand to learn English (including one who told me he speaks American.)

Sacred gun ownership? That might a bit dramatic but I support the 2nd Amendment.

Meanwhile, " Illegal aliens are here illegally?" Who'd they get to write that, John Madden?

[houndawg]

From the Tea Party website...15 core beliefs:


So, if I agree with 14 of the 15 core beliefs, I MUST agree with #15?

You left out the heading for that list "15 Non-negotiable Core Beliefs". You also seem to be ignoring the pattern of Tea Partiers being all or nothing.

Listen, on the surface, I have no problem with their economic policies. Reduce the deficit, require a balanced budget is all good. But socially they aren't anywhere close.

Traditionally family values encouraged? That's a polite way of saying, No Gay marriage which also means gays are second class citizens.

English as our core language is a polite way of saying, Learn the language, you immigrant. And to a point, I agree that if you are going to live here that you should speak the dominant language but is #14 necessary? I've never had trouble communicating with anyone in this country, and I've worked with plenty of immigrants. I know many Americans who could stand to learn English (including one who told me he speaks American.)

Sacred gun ownership? That might a bit dramatic but I support the 2nd Amendment.

Meanwhile, "Illegal aliens are here illegally?" Who'd they get to write that, John Madden?

They're here illegally, but its ok to hire them...

[CID1990]

Only a few are nutty...
1. Illegal aliens are here illegally / read Obama
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable / Tell Wall Street
3. A strong military is essential / But larger than the next 13 combined..?
4. Special interests must be eliminated / Agreed
5. Gun ownership is sacred / Jeezus even said so
6. Government must be downsized / Agreed
7. The national budget must be balanced / Agreed
8. Deficit spending must end / Agreed = See Military spending for prime offender
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal / Mostly true
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must / We don't have a tax problem we have a spending problem
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory / See above
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens / Never gonna happen, too expensive
13. Intrusive government must be stopped / Agreed
14. English as our core language is required / Nope that's bullshit
15. Traditional family values are encouraged / What does that even mean...

Going to have to disagree with you on #14, and I think if you saw what I have seen you wouldn't think it is BS.

I deal with legal immigrants to the US every day. They come back to the home country after receiving their legal permanent residence (and the attendant benefits) and they remain native sons and daughters of their home countries. A large part of them never assimilate; become Americans, and have no desire to do so. To them, being an American means having access to services not available to them from their own governments. It has nothing to do with actually becoming an American. I have no problem with preserving your own culture, that is a part of being American. But language IS the basis of all culture, and if you intend to become a fully vested and informed citizen, then the language is something you need to at least make an effort to acquire. Being an American is more than just who crapped you out and where they did it.

I dealt with Vietnamese immigrants. They get it. You can't throw a rock without hitting an English school over there, and they scrape and scratch up the money to learn it. The Viets buy so completely into the idea of being Americans that they actually take it a little over the top, like changing their names to Elvis and Leona when they naturalize.

This is one thing that the supposedly more "enlightened" Western countries get. Don't bother showing up at an Australian or French embassy for an immigrant visa if you don't speak English or French.

Language is culture.

[DSUrocks07]

Only a few are nutty...
1. Illegal aliens are here illegally / read Obama
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable / Tell Wall Street
3. A strong military is essential / But larger than the next 13 combined..?
4. Special interests must be eliminated / Agreed
5. Gun ownership is sacred / Jeezus even said so
6. Government must be downsized / Agreed
7. The national budget must be balanced / Agreed
8. Deficit spending must end / Agreed = See Military spending for prime offender
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal / Mostly true
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must / We don't have a tax problem we have a spending problem
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory / See above
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens / Never gonna happen, too expensive
13. Intrusive government must be stopped / Agreed
14. English as our core language is required / Nope that's bullshit
15. Traditional family values are encouraged / What does that even mean...

Going to have to disagree with you on #14, and I think if you saw what I have seen you wouldn't think it is BS.

I deal with legal immigrants to the US every day. They come back to the home country after receiving their legal permanent residence (and the attendant benefits) and they remain native sons and daughters of their home countries. A large part of them never assimilate; become Americans, and have no desire to do so. To them, being an American means having access to services not available to them from their own governments. It has nothing to do with actually becoming an American. I have no problem with preserving your own culture, that is a part of being American. But language IS the basis of all culture, and if you intend to become a fully vested and informed citizen, then the language is something you need to at least make an effort to acquire. Being an American is more than just who crapped you out and where they did it.

I dealt with Vietnamese immigrants. They get it. You can't throw a rock without hitting an English school over there, and they scrape and scratch up the money to learn it. The Viets buy so completely into the idea of being Americans that they actually take it a little over the top, like changing their names to Elvis and Leona when they naturalize.

This is one thing that the supposedly more "enlightened" Western countries get. Don't bother showing up at an Australian or French embassy for an immigrant visa if you don't speak English or French.

Language is culture.

I agree with that. What's the point of calling this nation a proverbial "melting pot" if we aren't adhering to and forming a definitive cultural identity. What does it mean to be an American?

People don't understand what an actual melting pot is (or what it does) I guess.

[89Hen]

3. A strong military is essential / But larger than the next 13 combined..?

Unfortunately, that's how that one works. If you're only a little bit bigger than the next couple guys, there's gonna be a fight.

[Chizzang]

3. A strong military is essential / But larger than the next 13 combined..?

Unfortunately, that's how that one works. If you're only a little bit bigger than the next couple guys, there's gonna be a fight.

A little bit bigger...
Who said a little bit bigger / How about just 5 X times larger than the next guy..?

[BDKJMU]

I never did.



If you'd bothered to pay attention you would know that many TP protested Bush's spending.

And anyone with a lick of sense would know that these types of movements don't spring up in a few weeks or a few months but take years to form.

Insults only get you so far, chief. When was the first Tea Party-organized protest of Bush's fiscally irresponsible policies? Who was the first Tea Party-backed candidate? Prior to the 4/15/09 protests, when did the organized Tea Party hold rallies? K, thanks.

Did Bush pass a close to 900 billion porkulous so called stimuklus bill?
Did Bush bailout the auto companies and UAW, which unlike the banks, haven't paid back all of their $ and likely never will.
Did Bush pass Obamacare?
Did Bush insist on raising taxes?
Did Bush launch an assault on the 2nd Amendment?

If your wife spends $1,000 that you don't have, are you going to have the same level of reaction if she spends $10,000 that you don't have?

[Chizzang]

Insults only get you so far, chief. When was the first Tea Party-organized protest of Bush's fiscally irresponsible policies? Who was the first Tea Party-backed candidate? Prior to the 4/15/09 protests, when did the organized Tea Party hold rallies? K, thanks.

Did Bush pass a close to 900 billion porkulous so called stimuklus bill?
Did Bush bailout the auto companies and UAW, which unlike the banks, haven't paid back all of their $ and likely never will.
Did Bush pass Obamacare?
Did Bush insist on raising taxes?
Did Bush launch an assault on the 2nd Amendment?

If your wife spends $1,000 that you don't have, are you going to have the same level of reaction if she spends $10,000 that you don't have?

You'll want to brush up on your spending facts...
I know you won't - but - you should

[CitadelGrad]

Unfortunately, that's how that one works. If you're only a little bit bigger than the next couple guys, there's gonna be a fight.

A little bit bigger...
Who said a little bit bigger / How about just 5 X times larger than the next guy..?

We don't have a large military. We have an expensive military. There are many reasons for that, but we are not going to overwhelm many other nations with numbers. We overwhelm them with technology.

[kalm]

Insults only get you so far, chief. When was the first Tea Party-organized protest of Bush's fiscally irresponsible policies? Who was the first Tea Party-backed candidate? Prior to the 4/15/09 protests, when did the organized Tea Party hold rallies? K, thanks.

Did Bush pass a close to 900 billion porkulous so called stimuklus bill?
Did Bush bailout the auto companies and UAW, which unlike the banks, haven't paid back all of their $ and likely never will.
Did Bush pass Obamacare?
Did Bush insist on raising taxes?
Did Bush launch an assault on the 2nd Amendment?

If your wife spends $1,000 that you don't have, are you going to have the same level of reaction if she spends $10,000 that you don't have?

Did the banks pay off their zero interest loans?

[DSUrocks07]

Unfortunately, that's how that one works. If you're only a little bit bigger than the next couple guys, there's gonna be a fight.

A little bit bigger...
Who said a little bit bigger / How about just 5 X times larger than the next guy..?

5x bigger isn't all that much of a deterrent...what if #2 - #6 decide to all gang up on you?

[DSUrocks07]

A little bit bigger...
Who said a little bit bigger / How about just 5 X times larger than the next guy..?

We don't have a large military. We have an expensive military. There are many reasons for that, but we are not going to overwhelm many other nations with numbers. We overwhelm them with technology.

In sheer size, there are about 5 or 6 countries that can bring more actual manpower to the front lines. We've been downsizing our military for years now.

[kalm]

That's not exactly what you said.

Crap, kalm, you and I could solve the world's problems in half a legal pad and a bottle of tequila.

Except the corporations-are-persons part.

I'll bring the chips and salsa!

[Chizzang]

We don't have a large military. We have an expensive military. There are many reasons for that, but we are not going to overwhelm many other nations with numbers. We overwhelm them with technology.

In sheer size, there are about 5 or 6 countries that can bring more actual manpower to the front lines. We've been downsizing our military for years now.

Sounds like we've got a whole bunch of Military (Freeloaders) I mean contractors on this forum

very entertaining

[DSUrocks07]

In sheer size, there are about 5 or 6 countries that can bring more actual manpower to the front lines. We've been downsizing our military for years now.

Sounds like we've got a whole bunch of Military (Freeloaders) I mean contractors on this forum

very entertaining

Military Manpower/Size =/= military spending

I agree that we have a severe spending problem and that the military is at the forefront along with social programs.

But saying that we have a military that's 13x larger than any other nation on the planet simply isn't true.

[Ivytalk]

Some very enlightened posts on this thread, Ibanez excluded. But we've gotten away from Rand Paul. Maybe nobody gives two shits about Rand Paul.

[Chizzang]

Sounds like we've got a whole bunch of Military (Freeloaders) I mean contractors on this forum

very entertaining

Military Manpower/Size =/= military spending

I agree that we have a severe spending problem and that the military is at the forefront along with social programs.

But saying that we have a military that's 13x larger than any other nation on the planet simply isn't true.

And when I say bigger I'm talking what it costs

[BDKJMU]

Did Bush pass a close to 900 billion porkulous so called stimuklus bill?
Did Bush bailout the auto companies and UAW, which unlike the banks, haven't paid back all of their $ and likely never will.
Did Bush pass Obamacare?
Did Bush insist on raising taxes?
Did Bush launch an assault on the 2nd Amendment?

If your wife spends $1,000 that you don't have, are you going to have the same level of reaction if she spends $10,000 that you don't have?

Did the banks pay off their zero interest loans?

Taxpayers made $ off the bank bailouts (which I disagreed with then and still do):
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/index" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AZGrizFan]

Did Bush pass a close to 900 billion porkulous so called stimuklus bill?
Did Bush bailout the auto companies and UAW, which unlike the banks, haven't paid back all of their $ and likely never will.
Did Bush pass Obamacare?
Did Bush insist on raising taxes?
Did Bush launch an assault on the 2nd Amendment?

If your wife spends $1,000 that you don't have, are you going to have the same level of reaction if she spends $10,000 that you don't have?

Did the banks pay off their zero interest loans?

a) they weren't zero interest
b) every dime was paid back
c) I still disagree with the bailouts.