Would Jesus Cut Food Stamps?

[kalm]

The fact of the historical existence of Jesus is accepted nearly universally by genuine historians.

Only internet "scholars" suggest Jesus never existed.

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4] and although there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity,[5][6][7][8] biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[9][10][11] Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD.[12][13][14] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea, did not preach or study elsewhere[15][16][17] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and possibly Greek.[18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and shortly afterwards was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Criticizing internet historians while citing Wiki ...

Spoiler: show

I'm assuming that was intentional

[JoltinJoe]

[kalm]

So would Jesus cut food stamps?

[JoltinJoe]

So would Jesus cut food stamps?

Jesus would take five loaves and a two fish and multiply them so everyone had plenty of food.

So Jesus would cut food stamps because they are not necessary.

[D1B]

The Jesus of the bible is a fabrication. He's no different than the thousands of other mythical characters concocted by our comparatively ignorant ancestors to control the masses.

That being said, if the gospels are to believed, which they shouldn't, the Jesus character would indeed have compelled both individual and collective (government) charity by direct edict and threat of eternal damnation for noncompliance.

[JoltinJoe]

The Jesus of the bible is a fabrication. He's no different than the thousands of other mythical characters concocted by our comparatively ignorant ancestors to control the masses. .

Of course it's a matter of faith of how much to accept about the Gospels. But I think the following can't be disputed:
(i) In his time, Jesus obtained a reputation as a significant religious figure and miracle worker; people traveled long distances to see Jesus.
(ii) Jesus, because of his reputation/legend, became a threat to the religious establishment and political establishment, thus he was crucified.
(iii) Jesus' devout followers who had traveled with him during his ministry later journeyed throughout the known world, spreading their belief that he was the Messiah. All but one his of most devout followers was later executed for spreading the word about Jesus.

After Jesus' execution, you would have expected his followers to go into fearful hiding and then go their separate ways. But instead they became stronger in their faith in Jesus and all willingly accepted persecution and eventually death for spreading the outlawed faith. That's a lot of sacrifice for something you say they knew was a myth. None of them became rich or privileged because of their ministry. For me, there is no rational explanation for this other than they really believed in what they were doing -- so much so that they died for it.

The great mystery of Christianity is why this movement with but a handful of followers even survived past the brutal execution of its leader. I'm not aware of any other historical social or religious movement which has survived against these type of impossible odds.

[YoUDeeMan]

The Jesus of the bible is a fabrication. He's no different than the thousands of other mythical characters concocted by our comparatively ignorant ancestors to control the masses. .

Of course it's a matter of faith of how much to accept about the Gospels. But I think the following can't be disputed:
(i) In his time, Jesus obtained a reputation as a significant religious figure and miracle worker; people traveled long distances to see Jesus.
(ii) Jesus, because of his reputation/legend, became a threat to the religious establishment and political establishment, thus he was crucified.
(iii) Jesus' devout followers who had traveled with him during his ministry later journeyed throughout the known world, spreading their belief that he was the Messiah. All but one his of most devout followers was later executed for spreading the word about Jesus.

After Jesus' execution, you would have expected his followers to go into fearful hiding and then go their separate ways. But instead they became stronger in their faith in Jesus and all willingly accepted persecution and eventually death for spreading the outlawed faith. That's a lot of sacrifice for something you say they knew was a myth. None of them became rich or privileged because of their ministry. For me, there is no rational explanation for this other than they really believed in what they were doing -- so much so that they died for it.

The great mystery of Christianity is why this movement with but a handful of followers even survived past the brutal execution of its leader. I'm not aware of any other historical social or religious movement which has survived against these type of impossible odds.

People will fight for their leaders, or an idea, even after their leader's death. Happens all the time.

People in Iraq/Cambodia/Poland/Isreal/Egypt/'Merica/China/etc. all faced what were thought to be impossible odds...yet they risked life and limb to bring about change.

People drank koolaid for one nut job...and recently tossed a baby into a bonfire for another...in the name of religion.

[D1B]

The great mystery of Christianity is why this movement with but a handful of followers even survived past the brutal execution of its leader.

It's not a mystery.

1. Constantine
2. The attractiveness of the concept of eternal salvation to the poor and the control of this concept by the powerful.
3. 2000 years of brutal punishment for non believers.
4. Trillions upon trillions of dollars invested in indoctrination campaigns that trap people from birth to death - schools, churches, sacraments, guilt......

[JoltinJoe]

People will fight for their leaders, or an idea, even after their leader's death. Happens all the time.

Perhaps, but:

(i) Name one such movement involving about a dozen members which survived into a second generation.
(ii) Name one such, involving about a dozen members, which "fought" non-violently even under the threat of execution.
(iii) Name one such movement, involving about a dozen members, which still exists after two centuries and has expanded world-wide to account for about 2 billion people.

People in Iraq/Cambodia/Poland/Isreal/Egypt/'Merica/China/etc. all faced what were thought to be impossible odds...yet they risked life and limb to bring about change.

Perhaps, but:
(i) Did any of these movements involve just 12 devout followers?
(i) Consider that your point only proves that people will risk their own personal safety, even at the threat of their death or execution, only for compelling causes that they deeply believe in. So doesn't this actually support my point?

People drank koolaid for one nut job...and recently tossed a baby into a bonfire for another...in the name of religion.

Not sure what this has to do with even what you acknowledged to be heroic self-sacrifice to spread a compelling message.

[JoltinJoe]

The great mystery of Christianity is why this movement with but a handful of followers even survived past the brutal execution of its leader.

It's not a mystery.

1. Constantine
2. The attractiveness of the concept of eternal salvation to the poor and the control of this concept by the powerful.
3. 2000 years of brutal punishment for non believers.
4. Trillions upon trillions of dollars invested in indoctrination campaigns that trap people from birth to death - schools, churches, sacraments, guilt......

But none of this speaks to the miracle of the survival of the First Century Church. There were 300 years between Christ and Constantine.

I think the rest of your point has to do with the fact that SOME people have abused a good thing for personal gain or to achieve power. But to me that is not surprising, especially when the vehicle is religion.

The trick is to be a First Century Christian in a church/world that makes living that way difficult, and wishes to distort the message of other reasons (including political, which was the original point of this thread).

I think you would have been very comfortable in the First Century Church.

[D1B]

It's not a mystery.

1. Constantine
2. The attractiveness of the concept of eternal salvation to the poor and the control of this concept by the powerful.
3. 2000 years of brutal punishment for non believers.
4. Trillions upon trillions of dollars invested in indoctrination campaigns that trap people from birth to death - schools, churches, sacraments, guilt......

But none of this speaks to the miracle of the survival of the First Century Church.

Eternal salvation does. It's a concept that gave and gives powerless people the false impression of hope, in a brutally oppressive world. Combine it with borrowed rituals from several pagan religions, the simplicity of monotheism and several effective and aggressive adherents and you can see its evolution from a local cult of personality/myth to something that makes sense to people like Constantine and hundreds of successive tyrants and rulers.

It was brilliant.

[D1B]

It's not a mystery.

1. Constantine
2. The attractiveness of the concept of eternal salvation to the poor and the control of this concept by the powerful.
3. 2000 years of brutal punishment for non believers.
4. Trillions upon trillions of dollars invested in indoctrination campaigns that trap people from birth to death - schools, churches, sacraments, guilt......

But none of this speaks to the miracle of the survival of the First Century Church. There were 300 years between Christ and Constantine.

I think the rest of your point has to do with the fact that SOME people have abused a good thing for personal gain or to achieve power. But to me that is not surprising, especially when the vehicle is religion.

The trick is to be a First Century Christian in a church/world that makes living that way difficult, and wishes to distort the message of other reasons (including political, which was the original point of this thread).

I think you would have been very comfortable in the First Century Church.

I don't think christianity developed from Jesus either. Rather is developed back to a story about someone named Jesus or is an outright fabrication, like the thousands of other similar myths.

Rulers and profiteers, understanding the value of eternal salvation to the poor and the power that comes from controlling the message basically concocted the scheme. This is evidenced by the fact there were no eyewitnesses accounts of Jesus. Much of what we know about him was "written" 50 to several hundred years later and we have very little to no knowledge of who actually wrote the stories.

2000 years from now, the story of Jesus will be unrecognizable to you.

[kalm]

People will fight for their leaders, or an idea, even after their leader's death. Happens all the time.

Perhaps, but:

(i) Name one such movement involving about a dozen members which survived into a second generation.
(ii) Name one such, involving about a dozen members, which "fought" non-violently even under the threat of execution.
(iii) Name one such movement, involving about a dozen members, which still exists after two centuries and has expanded world-wide to account for about 2 billion people.

People in Iraq/Cambodia/Poland/Isreal/Egypt/'Merica/China/etc. all faced what were thought to be impossible odds...yet they risked life and limb to bring about change.

Perhaps, but:
(i) Did any of these movements involve just 12 devout followers?
(i) Consider that your point only proves that people will risk their own personal safety, even at the threat of their death or execution, only for compelling causes that they deeply believe in. So doesn't this actually support my point?

People drank koolaid for one nut job...and recently tossed a baby into a bonfire for another...in the name of religion.

Not sure what this has to do with even what you acknowledged to be heroic self-sacrifice to spread a compelling message.

I read Siddartha years ago, but IIRC it was pretty much one dude and he was non-violent. As for the numbers, Bud Light is really popular too.

[JoltinJoe]

I read Siddartha years ago, but IIRC it was pretty much one dude and he was non-violent.

And were you put to death for being a follower?

[JoltinJoe]

But none of this speaks to the miracle of the survival of the First Century Church. There were 300 years between Christ and Constantine.

I think the rest of your point has to do with the fact that SOME people have abused a good thing for personal gain or to achieve power. But to me that is not surprising, especially when the vehicle is religion.

The trick is to be a First Century Christian in a church/world that makes living that way difficult, and wishes to distort the message of other reasons (including political, which was the original point of this thread).

I think you would have been very comfortable in the First Century Church.

I don't think christianity developed from Jesus either. Rather is developed back to a story about someone named Jesus or is an outright fabrication, like the thousands of other similar myths.

Rulers and profiteers, understanding the value of eternal salvation to the poor and the power that comes from controlling the message basically concocted the scheme. This is evidenced by the fact there were no eyewitnesses accounts of Jesus. Much of what we know about him was "written" 50 to several hundred years later and we have very little to no knowledge of who actually wrote the stories.

2000 years from now, the story of Jesus will be unrecognizable to you.

News flash: I disagree entirely.

BTW, did you see Pope Francis' comments about atheists and saving grace? I'm not going to say I told you so, but I've been saying this for years and you never believed me. It's great to have a Jesuit pope.

[kalm]

I read Siddartha years ago, but IIRC it was pretty much one dude and he was non-violent.

And were you put to death for being a follower?

I don't recall. But upon consulting YOUR Wikipedia, the answer is yes. Of course the Buddha was so much more believable, the assailants laid down their weapons.

[D1B]

I don't think christianity developed from Jesus either. Rather is developed back to a story about someone named Jesus or is an outright fabrication, like the thousands of other similar myths.

Rulers and profiteers, understanding the value of eternal salvation to the poor and the power that comes from controlling the message basically concocted the scheme. This is evidenced by the fact there were no eyewitnesses accounts of Jesus. Much of what we know about him was "written" 50 to several hundred years later and we have very little to no knowledge of who actually wrote the stories.

2000 years from now, the story of Jesus will be unrecognizable to you.

News flash: I disagree entirely.

BTW, did you see Pope Francis' comments about atheists and saving grace? I'm not going to say I told you so, but I've been saying this for years and you never believed me. It's great to have a Jesuit pope.

He obviously read The Art of War.

[AZGrizFan]

News flash: I disagree entirely.

BTW, did you see Pope Francis' comments about atheists and saving grace? I'm not going to say I told you so, but I've been saying this for years and you never believed me. It's great to have a Jesuit pope.

He obviously read The Art of War.

Reading that book now.

[D1B]

He obviously read The Art of War.

Reading that book now.

It aint helping.

houndawg and I have reamed your ass so bad on several thread, you can park your SUV in it.

[AZGrizFan]

Reading that book now.

It aint helping.

houndawg and I have reamed your ass so bad on several thread, you can park your SUV in it.

What color is the sky in your world? Because the SURE sign of getting your ass handed to you is claiming some mythical "internet victory".

[houndawg]

Reading that book now.

It aint helping.

houndawg and I have reamed your ass so bad on several thread, you can park your SUV in it.

Maybe Omar the tent maker can rig up some heavy canvas flaps over Z's ass.

[AZGrizFan]

It aint helping.

houndawg and I have reamed your ass so bad on several thread, you can park your SUV in it.

Maybe Omar the tent maker can rig up some heavy canvas flaps over Z's ass.

Another internet victory claimer. Is your life that meaningless?

[JoltinJoe]

News flash: I disagree entirely.

BTW, did you see Pope Francis' comments about atheists and saving grace? I'm not going to say I told you so, but I've been saying this for years and you never believed me. It's great to have a Jesuit pope.

He obviously read The Art of War.

In a news photo captured this morning, residents of Heaven react to the announcement that D1B and other atheists are now eligible for salvation.

[D1B]

He obviously read The Art of War.

In a news photo captured this morning, residents of Heaven react to the announcement that D1B and other atheists are now eligible for salvation.

D1B already is a lock. Don't need their help.

[D1B]

Maybe Omar the tent maker can rig up some heavy canvas flaps over Z's ass.

Another internet victory claimer. Is your life that meaningless?

L'ingMAO at Captain Canvas Flaps!

Z, you having nighmares about houndawg and I?

Better luck next week. You have a long weekend to gather your strength and focus, and work on mending your canvas flaps after the Mem Day BBQ.