Trickle Down Works!

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Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

So adjusting for inflation, the bottom 90%, with all it's increases in productivity, is making $59 more than they did in 1966. Sounds about right. :coffee:

(Yeah, I know, David Cay Johnston blah, blah, blah...Reaganomics didn't start till the 80's blah, blah, blah...but still... :coffee: )
In 2011 the average income of the bottom 90 percent was just $59 more than in 1966 in real terms, depicted here as one inch. This graphic shows the comparable income growth of those within the top 10 percent.

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Source: Author's calculations from analysis of IRS data by Saez and Piketty.

It has become widely understood that we cannot balance our federal budget by raising taxes only on those at the top, because there is not enough income there, even if we taxed away everything the top makes. What is equally true is that we cannot increase tax revenue if the incomes of the vast majority keep falling. That, however, has yet to become part of the debate on how to finance government.

Maybe this debate can change if we understand how the national income pie is being sliced now and how it was in more prosperous times.

Back in 1966, the top 1 percent of the top 1 percent reported 1.3 percent of all pretax income. In 2011 that tiny number of American households saw their slice of pie more than triple, to 4.5 percent.

Overall, the top 10 percent got a bigger share of the pie in 2011 than in 1966, but the biggest increases went to those at the top, with just a sliver extra for those down near the 90/10 dividing line.

What of the vast majority who make too little to be in the top 10 percent? The bottom 90 percent saw their slice of the national income pie shrivel, from two-thirds in 1966 to barely half in 2011 (66.3 to 51.8 percent).

Between 1980 and 2005, more than 80 percent of the total increase in income went to the top 1 percent of American households.1

Those at the top are pulling away from everyone else not because of hard work, but the shift of income from labor to capital and changes in federal income, gift, and estate tax rules.

The median wage has been stuck since 1999 at a bit more than $500 per week in real terms and job growth has lagged far beyond population growth. But capital gains and dividends have soared, a new Congressional Research Service study shows. And, of course, the rich get most of that income. Thomas Hungerford concluded:


By far, the largest contributor to increasing income inequality (regardless of income inequality measure) was changes in income from capital gains and dividends. Capital gains and dividends were less equally distributed in 1991 than in 2006. . . . Tax policy may have also have had an indirect effect on rising income inequality, especially between 2001 and 2006. The reduction in the tax rate on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends may have led to the increased importance of this source in after-tax income.

The Saez-Piketty analysis shows the concentration of growth at the very top increasing. That is bad for tax revenue and bad for social stability. The drop in incomes among the vast majority holds back economic growth, because there is just not enough aggregate demand to support creating enough new jobs to keep up with population growth...
http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features ... 1D004DE3FC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by UNI88 »

And here I thought someone was peeing on your roof. ;)
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by Grizalltheway »

UNI88 wrote:And here I thought someone was peeing on your roof. ;)
SE only does that during football season.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

Grizalltheway wrote:
UNI88 wrote:And here I thought someone was peeing on your roof. ;)
SE only does that during football season.
Seriously, knock it off. This is serious shit here. Wealth HAS trickled down leading to increased tax revenues, increased demand for goods, and more jobs!
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
SE only does that during football season.
Seriously, knock it off. This is serious **** here. Wealth HAS trickled down leading to increased tax revenues, increased demand for goods, and more jobs!
Sorry. You're right - trickle down works ........ almost as well as percolate up as demonstrated by Obama's stimulus.

Seriously, I don't disagree with the information posted. Trickle down isn't that effective at raising the wages of those at the bottom. I'm also not sure what the alternative is. My suspicion is that taking money from the wealthy to distribute to the less fortunate with the hopes that it will bubble up through the economy (i.e. percolate up) is even less effective. That the average standard of living will drop overall.
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Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by expandspanos »

This video is a MUST SEE for people who think there ISN'T a problem with wealth inequality in America.. and that "the rich deserve to be mega-mega-rich, because they're such great job creators."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM[/youtube]

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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by AZGrizFan »

So, let me see if I've got this right.
You've got to HAVE money to MAKE money.

It's been that way since the dawn of time....Donald Trump and Warren Buffett didn't INVENT that concept.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:So, let me see if I've got this right.
You've got to HAVE money to MAKE money.

It's been that way since the dawn of time....Donald Trump and Warren Buffett didn't INVENT that concept.
...and then came along the middle class. And they were able to scratch out a humble piece of that pie. Eventually credit unions formed where they could park those humble earnings... :coffee:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:So, let me see if I've got this right.
You've got to HAVE money to MAKE money.

It's been that way since the dawn of time....Donald Trump and Warren Buffett didn't INVENT that concept.
...and then came along the middle class. And they were able to scratch out a humble piece of that pie. Eventually credit unions formed where they could park those humble earnings... :coffee:
Credit unions are thriving. :coffee: :nod:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
...and then came along the middle class. And they were able to scratch out a humble piece of that pie. Eventually credit unions formed where they could park those humble earnings... :coffee:
Credit unions are thriving. :coffee: :nod:
Due to a rejection of trickle down banking. :nod:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by JohnStOnge »

I'm skeptical about the source of the numbers. Being the statistics nut I am I've looked at how incomes have changed over the years many times using CBO estimates. And I don't think the idea that the average income of the "bottom" 90% rose by only $59 as suggested by the author's source (Saez and Piketty) in inflation adjusted terms between 1966 and 2011 is consistent with what I've seen in CBO estimates.

I just pulled up a spreadsheet of CBO numbers for the period 1979 through 2005 I've got on my hard drive and did some calculations. By those estimates the inflation adjusted average income of the "bottom" 90% of households was $9,500 higher in 2005 than it was in 1979 (in 2005 dollars). It works out to the average income of the "bottom" 90% being 20% higher in 2005 than it was in 1979 in inflation adjusted terms. I suppose it's possible that the inflation adjusted average income for that group in 1966 was WAY higher than it was in 1979 but I really doubt it.

Not that using CBO numbers doesn't also support the conclusion that the top 10% has gotten farther ahead of the bottom 90% over time. By the CBO numbers the average income of the top 10% in 2005 was $173,000 higher than it was in 1979. It works out to a 201% increase.

But in my opinion what we have here is a couple of liberal French economists at Cal Berkley and the Paris School of Economics who don't start off by wanting to present an objective picture. They're on an "income gap" crusade and they look for ways to fudge the numbers in order to make the most dramatic case. I wouldn't even be surprised if their choice of the time frame (why pick a 46 year time frame staring in 1966?) was part of facilitating that. Can't prove that. Nobody can read minds. But that's what I think. To me it's yet another indication of the problem we have with philosophical bias among scientists. It's pretty much epidemic I think.

If you're interested here is an article on Saez and Piketty:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/busin ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, I can't tell you I know that their numbers are incorrect. But I CAN tell you that it doesn't look like they're consistent with what one gets from looking at the CBO numbers. And I think it's fair to say there's no need for concern about philosophical bias impacting the CBO estimates.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote:I'm skeptical about the source of the numbers. Being the statistics nut I am I've looked at how incomes have changed over the years many times using CBO estimates. And I don't think the idea that the average income of the "bottom" 90% rose by only $59 as suggested by the author's source (Saez and Piketty) in inflation adjusted terms between 1966 and 2011 is consistent with what I've seen in CBO estimates.

I just pulled up a spreadsheet of CBO numbers for the period 1979 through 2005 I've got on my hard drive and did some calculations. By those estimates the inflation adjusted average income of the "bottom" 90% of households was $9,500 higher in 2005 than it was in 1979 (in 2005 dollars). It works out to the average income of the "bottom" 90% being 20% higher in 2005 than it was in 1979 in inflation adjusted terms. I suppose it's possible that the inflation adjusted average income for that group in 1966 was WAY higher than it was in 1979 but I really doubt it.

Not that using CBO numbers doesn't also support the conclusion that the top 10% has gotten farther ahead of the bottom 90% over time. By the CBO numbers the average income of the top 10% in 2005 was $173,000 higher than it was in 1979. It works out to a 201% increase.

But in my opinion what we have here is a couple of liberal French economists at Cal Berkley and the Paris School of Economics who don't start off by wanting to present an objective picture. They're on an "income gap" crusade and they look for ways to fudge the numbers in order to make the most dramatic case. I wouldn't even be surprised if their choice of the time frame (why pick a 46 year time frame staring in 1966?) was part of facilitating that. Can't prove that. Nobody can read minds. But that's what I think. To me it's yet another indication of the problem we have with philosophical bias among scientists. It's pretty much epidemic I think.

If you're interested here is an article on Saez and Piketty:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/busin ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, I can't tell you I know that their numbers are incorrect. But I CAN tell you that it doesn't look like they're consistent with what one gets from looking at the CBO numbers. And I think it's fair to say there's no need for concern about philosophical bias impacting the CBO estimates.
Your posts start making sense when I read them in the voice of Professor John Nerdelbaum Frink, Jr. :thumb:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by CID1990 »

At the end of the day you choose your poison. Either you make less money but your 401k sings, or you make more money and your investments have a flatter return.

Except for right now, where you might be out of work or underemployed, and your investments are shrinking.


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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by JohnStOnge »

Bottom line is that the idea that having the "income gap" get bigger is inherently and necessarily "bad" is a fallacy. It doesn't necessarily mean anybody has taken anything that rightfully belongs to someone else nor does it necessarily mean that anybody is worse off than they were earlier. It's quite possible to have everybody be better off, have a situation in which nobody has taken anything that rightfully belongs to anybody else, and have the income gap...however that's defined...expand dramatically.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by houndawg »

JohnStOnge wrote:Bottom line is that the idea that having the "income gap" get bigger is inherently and necessarily "bad" is a fallacy. It doesn't necessarily mean anybody has taken anything that rightfully belongs to someone else nor does it necessarily mean that anybody is worse off than they were earlier. It's quite possible to have everybody be better off, have a situation in which nobody has taken anything that rightfully belongs to anybody else, and have the income gap...however that's defined...expand dramatically.
Possibly in a country where the CEO doesn't make 450 times what the actual producer makes, but not in the US. Way to much greed here; we'll continue on this path until the mob starts eating the rich. Another 10 years and a banker won't be able to leave his gated community without armed escort.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:Bottom line is that the idea that having the "income gap" get bigger is inherently and necessarily "bad" is a fallacy. It doesn't necessarily mean anybody has taken anything that rightfully belongs to someone else nor does it necessarily mean that anybody is worse off than they were earlier. It's quite possible to have everybody be better off, have a situation in which nobody has taken anything that rightfully belongs to anybody else, and have the income gap...however that's defined...expand dramatically.
Possibly in a country where the CEO doesn't make 450 times what the actual producer makes, but not in the US. Way to much greed here; we'll continue on this path until the mob starts eating the rich. Another 10 years and a banker won't be able to leave his gated community without armed escort.
Biggest fucking falacy continually perpetrated by the far left. The number of instances of this is miniscule when measured against the entire workforce and company base in this country.

You're better than that, dawg.

Oh, and the mob already HAS started to eat the rich. And trust me, you won't like this country very much in 10-15 years...if it's still around.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Possibly in a country where the CEO doesn't make 450 times what the actual producer makes, but not in the US. Way to much greed here; we'll continue on this path until the mob starts eating the rich. Another 10 years and a banker won't be able to leave his gated community without armed escort.
Biggest fucking falacy continually perpetrated by the far left. The number of instances of this is miniscule when measured against the entire workforce and company base in this country.

You're better than that, dawg. .
Yet it's enough create the stat. Wealth is power and that minuscule group tend to control industries that affect all of us. If you don't like Obamacare, you should recognize this.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Biggest fucking falacy continually perpetrated by the far left. The number of instances of this is miniscule when measured against the entire workforce and company base in this country.

You're better than that, dawg. .
Yet it's enough create the stat. Wealth is power and that minuscule group tend to control industries that affect all of us. If you don't like Obamacare, you should recognize this.
Yes, that all is true but, like you, he's willing to throw ALL CEO's out with the bathwater, so to speak, much like you did with bankers before I calibrated your sorry ass. :coffee:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
Yet it's enough create the stat. Wealth is power and that minuscule group tend to control industries that affect all of us. If you don't like Obamacare, you should recognize this.
Yes, that all is true but, like you, he's willing to throw ALL CEO's out with the bathwater, so to speak, much like you did with bankers before I calibrated your sorry ass. :coffee:
:rofl:

The only thing you calibrated was the butt-hurtedness (sp) over your confusion of discussions on high finance with ma and pa credit unions. :tothehand:

FTR...I'm a fan of credit unions and local/regional banks ,in fact am a member/customer of both, and...oh yeah, I'm one of those evil CEO's. :lol:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Yes, that all is true but, like you, he's willing to throw ALL CEO's out with the bathwater, so to speak, much like you did with bankers before I calibrated your sorry ass. :coffee:
:rofl:

The only thing you calibrated was the butt-hurtedness (sp) over your confusion of discussions on high finance with ma and pa credit unions. :tothehand:

FTR...I'm a fan of credit unions and local/regional banks ,in fact am a member/customer of both, and...oh yeah, I'm one of those evil CEO's. :lol:
Yeah, well now I'm NOT so I can bash you to my heart's content! :lol:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by JohnStOnge »

Possibly in a country where the CEO doesn't make 450 times what the actual producer makes,
The "actual producer" may be just a cog in the wheel. Nothing special about him or her. The value of anything is based on supply and demand. You can find anybody to screw a bolt in. If you lose one person that does it you can easily find another.

But maybe it's not so easy to find somebody who can function as a successful CEO of a large company.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Possibly in a country where the CEO doesn't make 450 times what the actual producer makes,
The "actual producer" may be just a cog in the wheel. Nothing special about him or her. The value of anything is based on supply and demand. You can find anybody to screw a bolt in. If you lose one person that does it you can easily find another.

But maybe it's not so easy to find somebody who can function as a successful CEO of a large company.
But even the unsuccessful CEO's get paid well.
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
:rofl:

The only thing you calibrated was the butt-hurtedness (sp) over your confusion of discussions on high finance with ma and pa credit unions. :tothehand:

FTR...I'm a fan of credit unions and local/regional banks ,in fact am a member/customer of both, and...oh yeah, I'm one of those evil CEO's. :lol:
Yeah, well now I'm NOT so I can bash you to my heart's content! :lol:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by BlueHen86 »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Yeah, well now I'm NOT so I can bash you to my heart's content! :lol:
:thumb:
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Re: Trickle Down Works!

Post by AZGrizFan »

BlueHen86 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
The "actual producer" may be just a cog in the wheel. Nothing special about him or her. The value of anything is based on supply and demand. You can find anybody to screw a bolt in. If you lose one person that does it you can easily find another.

But maybe it's not so easy to find somebody who can function as a successful CEO of a large company.
But even the unsuccessful CEO's get paid well.
You're not an unsuccessful CEO for very long.
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