FBI hunting 12-strong sleeper cell connected to brothers.

[UNI88]

You said we have not yet seen totalitarianism arise from social democracies. You were clearly incorrect. The Weinar Republic not only was a social democracy, but it also had the stamp of approval from the Versailles signatories. The Weimar Republic certainly did give rise to the Nazi dictatorship. It is a textbook example of what you said had not occurred.

Sent from the center of the universe.

Crushing war-reparation debt was a big help.

Cripes, stop bickering you're both right. The Weimar Republic was a social democracy that led to a totalitarian government and yes debt was also a huge factor.

I'm with Kalm that both sides have a pretty equal chance of leading to a totalitarian government if left unfettered.

[CID1990]

Crushing war-reparation debt was a big help.

Cripes, stop bickering you're both right. The Weimar Republic was a social democracy that led to a totalitarian government and yes debt was also a huge factor.

I'm with Kalm that both sides have a pretty equal chance of leading to a totalitarian government if left unfettered.

I agree on that.

Yes, the economy of Germany at the time was a prime mover in the rise of Nazism.

But to make the blanket statement that social democracies in Europe have not led to totalitarian governments while ignoring the fact that the inter-war government of Germany was in fact an example of this is disingenuous.

I think that any government that imposes its will inordinately on citizens that do not want those impositions runs the risk of becoming totalitarian solely as a matter of self-preservation. That the vast majority of totalitarian governments in the past 150 years have in fact been leftist at their origins is an inconvenient truth. But yeah, it can happen with governments on the right for the same reasons. The reason it hasn't happened this century is because the only social movements that have had to break out the whip lest they fizzle have been socialist movements.

The bottom line is that the natural state of man is one of freedom, and if you remove those freedoms human beings will naturally push back. If the average Joe actually realized benefits from enforced egalitarianism, then there wouldn't be such a fuss. The truth is that he largely does not benefit from it and therefore his compliance is largely forced.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

You said we have not yet seen totalitarianism arise from social democracies. You were clearly incorrect. The Weinar Republic not only was a social democracy, but it also had the stamp of approval from the Versailles signatories. The Weimar Republic certainly did give rise to the Nazi dictatorship. It is a textbook example of what you said had not occurred.


Sent from the center of the universe.

The Weimar Republic was a sham. There's a universe of difference between this post WW1 surrender ramshackle of a government and social democracies Kalm referenced.

You know better.

There ARE differences, but there are also too many similarities to leave it out of the conversation, too.

We'll see how the smaller EU signatories handle their current debt issues. There are a number of parallels between 1920s Germany and the modern PIGS of the EU.




Sent from the center of the universe.

[D1B]

Cripes, stop bickering you're both right. The Weimar Republic was a social democracy that led to a totalitarian government and yes debt was also a huge factor.

I'm with Kalm that both sides have a pretty equal chance of leading to a totalitarian government if left unfettered.

I agree on that.

Yes, the economy of Germany at the time was a prime mover in the rise of Nazism.

The economy of every nation is the prime mover in the rise of new regimes.

[D1B]

Cripes, stop bickering you're both right. The Weimar Republic was a social democracy that led to a totalitarian government and yes debt was also a huge factor.

I'm with Kalm that both sides have a pretty equal chance of leading to a totalitarian government if left unfettered.

I agree on that.

Yes, the economy of Germany at the time was a prime mover in the rise of Nazism.

But to make the blanket statement that social democracies in Europe have not led to totalitarian governments while ignoring the fact that the inter-war government of Germany was in fact an example of this is disingenuous.

I think that any government that imposes its will inordinately on citizens that do not want those impositions runs the risk of becoming totalitarian solely as a matter of self-preservation. That the vast majority of totalitarian governments in the past 150 years have in fact been leftist at their origins is an inconvenient truth. But yeah, it can happen with governments on the right for the same reasons. The reason it hasn't happened this century is because the only social movements that have had to break out the whip lest they fizzle have been socialist movements.

The bottom line is that the natural state of man is one of freedom, and if you remove those freedoms human beings will naturally push back. If the average Joe actually realized benefits from enforced egalitarianism, then there wouldn't be such a fuss. The truth is that he largely does not benefit from it and therefore his compliance is largely forced.


Sent from the center of the universe.

Post-hoc fallacy.

[JohnStOnge]

Guys, the big picture bottom line is that when it comes to the United States...or Great Britian...the "side" that generally favors giving more power to the central government is the "left" side. It's obvious. I can't believe anybody would even argue the point.

[kalm]

Guys, the big picture bottom line is that when it comes to the United States...or Great Britian...the "side" that generally favors giving more power to the central government is the "left" side. It's obvious. I can't believe anybody would even argue the point.

Probably true. And the side that generally favors central control by oligarchs is the right side.

[JohnStOnge]

And the side that generally favors central control by oligarchs is the right side.

I don't think that's true at all. I think the closest thing we have to oligarchy in the United States is the Supreme Court. That's the institution whereby the will of the few is imposed upon the population at large. That's the place where small group of unelected, completely unaccountable officials take action to dramatically impact public policy regardless of what the People want. And, though there have been cases in which each "side" has taken advantage of that, I think it's clear that on balance the left is the "side" that favors the idea of the Judiciary doing that and the left is the "side" that has most frequently used the Judiciary to impose its will upon the people.

It is clearly, on balance, the left "side" that favors the idea of a Supreme Court that steps in to alter public policy. And it is clearly the left "side" that more favors the "living Constitution" approach whereby the Court is not bound by what the Constitution says or how any particular section of Constitutional language was understood when it was ratified. It is clearly the left "side" that is more comfortable with being governed by the oligarchy that is the Judicial branch.

[houndawg]

Guys, the big picture bottom line is that when it comes to the United States...or Great Britian...the "side" that generally favors giving more power to the central government is the "left" side. It's obvious. I can't believe anybody would even argue the point.

Probably true. And the side that generally favors central control by oligarchs is the right side.

Who want less government for the same reason bank robbers want less cops.

[BDKJMU]

Ok, 3 more down. About 9 to go.

[BDKJMU]

Traveler from Saudi Arabia arrested at Detroit Metro with pressure cooker

Detroit — Federal agents arrested a Saudi Arabian traveler who arrived at Detroit Metropolitan Airport with a pressure cooker, a key component used in the Boston Marathon bombings last month.

Hussain Al Kwawahir will be arraigned at 1 p.m. in federal court for allegedly using an altered passport and lying to a Customs and Border Protection Agent about the pressure cooker.

Al Kwawahir arrived at the airport Saturday from Saudi Arabia, via Amsterdam, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday in federal court.

He told agents he was visiting his nephew, who attends the University of Toledo.

During baggage inspection, officers noticed a page missing from his passport.

Al Kwawahir told officers he did not know how the page was removed from the passport.

During the baggage exam, officers found a pressure cooker.

Al Kwawahir said he brought the pressure cooker for his nephew because the devices are not sold in the United States, according to the complaint.

Later, he changed his story and admitted that his nephew had purchased a pressure cooker in the U.S. but it was cheap and broken.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2013 ... z2TCGk6tsh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kalm]

Did they ever find the other 9?

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Did they ever find the other 9?

Anybody seen ∞ ∞ ∞ lately?

[BDKJMU]

What's that now, up to 7? The 2 brothers, 3 other students, the guy with the pressure cooker & altered passport at DTW, and now this guy.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05 ... ning?lite=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;