What has Atheism given us?

[CID1990]

Sent from the center of the universe.

[D1B]

STFU you fat little troll.

Like they say, it takes a troll to know a troll, some are bigger and fatter than others.

Yep, and some are just plain uglier than others.

[D1B]

The crown and the church were one in the same and Joe knows this.

Yes he does know. However, the argument is that many of these inquistors went beyond what was intended. We can say that for sure. THe historical record tells us that the church began and sacntioned the inquistions and the torture methods used.

Who gives a fuck? They tortured people.

[Ibanez]

Yes he does know. However, the argument is that many of these inquistors went beyond what was intended. We can say that for sure. THe historical record tells us that the church began and sacntioned the inquistions and the torture methods used.

Who gives a fuck? They tortured people.

I actually agree with your premise, Potsy.

[JoltinJoe]

We already covered this. Torture devices were used by civil authorities enforcing heresy laws, which is why the church started its own inquisition in the first place, in an effort to curtail abuses by civil authorities.

And the Spanish Inquisition was run by the Spanish crown, in opposition to the church's condemnation and its demand that the Spanish Inquisition be stopped.

Thank you for proving my point.

We sure did. Posted this last year.

Torturer’s Apprentice
The new science of interrogation is not, in fact, so new at all: “extraordinary rendition” and “enhanced interrogation” and “waterboarding” all spring directly from the practices of the medieval Roman Catholic Church. The distance, in both technique and ideology, between the Inquisition’s interrogation regime and 21st-century America’s is uncomfortably short—and provides a chilling harbinger of what can happen when moral certainty gets yoked to the machinery of torture...

Bernard Gui is a historical figure. He was a Dominican priest, and in 1307 he was indeed made an inquisitor by Pope Clement V, with responsibility for a broad swath of southern France. Over a period of 15 years, Gui pronounced some 633 men and women guilty of heresy. We know the disposition of these cases because Gui wrote everything down—the record survives in his Liber sententiarum, his “Book of Sentences.” It is a folio-size volume, bound in red leather. File a request at the British Library, in London, and before long the document will be delivered to the Manuscripts Reading Room, where you can prop it up on a wedge of black velvet. The writing, in Latin, is tiny and heavily abbreviated. Joe, try to lie your way out of this one!

Inquisition records can be highly detailed and shockingly mundane. An itemized accounting of expenses for the burning of four heretics in 1323 survives from Carcassonne:

For large wood 55 sols, 6 deniers.
For vine-branches . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 sols, 3 deniers.
For straw 2 sols, 6 deniers.
For four stakes 10 sols, 9 deniers.
For ropes to tie the convicts . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 sols, 7 deniers.
For the executioner, each 20 sols . . . . . . . . 80 sols.
In all 8 livres, 14 sols, 7 deniers.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ce/308838/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I must be missing the part about the use of torture devices being used by the Catholic Inquisition.

Now, as for Bernard Gui, yes, what is reported is true. He was an inquisitor and a Dominican. For the record, her served for 15 years, convicted 900 people of heresy, and which 42 were put to death (i.e., fewer than 3 a year). Nothing to be proud of, but the notion that people were indiscriminately burnt at the stake by Gui, at the rates and numbers often suggested or inferred, is simply not true.

Remember I said people tell outright lies about the Catholic Church, or twist the truth beyond recognition and fairness? Place this one in the latter category.

[JoltinJoe]

All you have to say is that the various inquistions were sanctioned by the RCC. Ad extirpanda, a papal bull is the 1200s, authorized torture and oultined the circumstances in which it can be conducted.

This is a distortion of historical fact. Ad extirpanda, written in response to the widespread torture imposed by civil authorities, sought to restrict the use of torture and limited the circumstances in which torture was permissible. It was a giant step forward, given prevailing attitudes of the 13th century.

BTW, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

[Ibanez]

All you have to say is that the various inquistions were sanctioned by the RCC. Ad extirpanda, a papal bull is the 1200s, authorized torture and oultined the circumstances in which it can be conducted.

This is a distortion of historical fact. Ad extirpanda, written in response to the widespread torture imposed by civil authorities, sought to restrict the use of torture and limited the circumstances in which torture was permissible. It was a giant step forward, given prevailing attitudes of the 13th century.

BTW, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Yes it was a "step forward" in saying how a Religious institution may torture people. I guess that makes it ok. You don't have to defend everything the RCC has done. Regardless of the century, 13th or 21st, torture was known to be terrible (hence it's use).

Btw, I don't believe everything on the internet or in a book crafted by men who voted on the divinity of a person. THEY HAD TO VOTE ON THE QUESTION OF JESUS' DIVINITY!

[D1B]

All you have to say is that the various inquistions were sanctioned by the RCC. Ad extirpanda, a papal bull is the 1200s, authorized torture and oultined the circumstances in which it can be conducted.

This is a distortion of historical fact. Ad extirpanda, written in response to the widespread torture imposed by civil authorities, sought to restrict the use of torture and limited the circumstances in which torture was permissible. It was a giant step forward, given prevailing attitudes of the 13th century.

BTW, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Joe, your church tortured and killed people.

Your church, and what you call "the civil authorities," were one in the same. MOF, in Spain, one in the same till quite recently.

[D1B]

All you have to say is that the various inquistions were sanctioned by the RCC. Ad extirpanda, a papal bull is the 1200s, authorized torture and oultined the circumstances in which it can be conducted.

This is a distortion of historical fact. Ad extirpanda, written in response to the widespread torture imposed by civil authorities, sought to restrict the use of torture and limited the circumstances in which torture was permissible. It was a giant step forward, given prevailing attitudes of the 13th century.

BTW, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Joe, you shoulda told JPII. He apologized for stuff that was all just lies by people who hate the church because they were steered wayward by inaccurate internet info.

Saving one of his most audacious initiatives for the twilight of his papacy, John Paul II yesterday attempted to purify the soul of the Roman Catholic church by making a sweeping apology for 2,000 years of violence, persecution and blunders.

From the altar of St Peter's Basilica in Rome he led Catholicism into unchartered territory by seeking forgiveness for sins committed against Jews, heretics, women, Gypsies and native peoples.

Fighting through trembles and slurrings caused by Parkinson's disease, the Pope electrified ranks of cardinals and bishops by pleading for a future that would not repeat the mistakes. "Never again," he said.

Centuries of hate and rivalry could not recur in the third millennium. "We forgive and we ask forgiveness. We are asking pardon for the divisions among Christians, for the use of violence that some have committed in the service of truth, and for attitudes of mistrust and hostility assumed towards followers of other religions."

Defying warnings from some theologians that the unprecedented apology would undermine the church's authority, the 79-year-old pontiff asked God to forgive the persecution of the Jews. "We are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood."

Wearing the purple vestments of lenten mourning, the Pope sought pardon for seven categories of sin: general sins; sins in the service of truth; sins against Christian unity; against the Jews; against respect for love, peace and cultures; against the dignity of women and minorities; and against human rights.

Ethnic groups had endured "contempt for their cultures and religious traditions". Women were "all too often humiliated and marginalised". Trust in wealth and power had obscured the church's responsibility to the poor and oppressed.

There was no reference to homosexuals, who had asked to be included for suffering theocratic violence. The Pope did not identify guilty individuals or name the crusades, the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but the references were clear.

Five Vatican cardinals and two bishops confessed sins on behalf of the church during the ceremony. Cardinal Edward Cassidy recalled the "sufferings of the people of Israel" asked divine pardon for the "sins committed by not a few [Catholics] against the people of the covenant".

Little did that veg know, the world wide sexual abuse of children scandal would consume the church and require another round of mealy mouthed and half-assed apolgies from his evil successor, who would then eventually walk away from the job.

The catholics are gonna make that asshole a saint soon, but he was as responsible as anyone for the rape and torture of tens of thousands of children, women and minorites - as we have witnessed.

Benedict was an uncaring asshole of biblical depravity, but he inherited the meat grinder from the soon to be saint, JP2.

Shame.

[JoltinJoe]

I can see the parade of falsehoods and distortions are about to rum amuck in this thread. They had to vote on divinity; JPII apologized, so that means the Catholic Church did everything anyone ever accused it of; the church and the government were always one and the same.

You can't cure stupid so why bother?

[Ibanez]

I can see the parade of falsehoods and distortions are about to rum amuck in this thread. They had to vote on divinity; JPII apologized, so that means the Catholic Church did everything anyone ever accused it of; the church and the government were always one and the same.

You can't cure stupid so why bother?

Excuse me. Church fathers had to debate the divinity of Jesus and therefore, all in attendance debated and majority ruled in favor of trinitarians. How did these 4th century people determine the quality of Jesus? Arius had many followers as well as many bishops that believed his POV.

[D1B]

I can see the parade of falsehoods and distortions are about to rum amuck in this thread. They had to vote on divinity; JPII apologized, so that means the Catholic Church did everything anyone ever accused it of; the church and the government were always one and the same.

You can't cure stupid so why bother?

Joe, we're here to help you.

[Ibanez]

I can see the parade of falsehoods and distortions are about to rum amuck in this thread. They had to vote on divinity; JPII apologized, so that means the Catholic Church did everything anyone ever accused it of; the church and the government were always one and the same.

You can't cure stupid so why bother?

I wouldn't say Church and Govt were one and the same but many monarchs took orders from Rome and then there was that period of approx 900 years where the Holy Roman Empire existed. All those monarchs being ordained by the Pope were under Romes control.

[D1B]

I can see the parade of falsehoods and distortions are about to rum amuck in this thread. They had to vote on divinity; JPII apologized, so that means the Catholic Church did everything anyone ever accused it of; the church and the government were always one and the same.

You can't cure stupid so why bother?

I wouldn't say Church and Govt were one and the same but many monarchs took orders from Rome and then there was that period of approx 900 years where the Holy Roman Empire existed. All those monarchs being ordained by the Pope were under Romes control.

They still control governments evidenced by the breathtaking inaction regarding the worldwide child rape scandal and holding the Catholic Church accountable for its crimes.

The Catholic Church is a criminal organization and should be thoroughly investigated then brought before the world court and tried for crimes against humanity.