Kudos to North Dakota

[D1B]

The whole "viability" thing is meaningless anyway. A total crock. Most of the unborn are viable from the moment of conception. To say that they are not "viable" because they cannot survive outside of the environment to which they are suited is stupid. You know you and I couldn't survive is someone stuck us 1000 feet under the surface of the ocean. We'd die immediately. Or if somebody zapped us into outer space. Immediately again. For that concept along with others the Roe vs. Wade decision is perhaps history's biggest example of why we should not assign the credibility we do to our Judiciary. Perhaps. There are other striking examples of intellectual dishonesty. But that one's right up there.

No way those guys (and now gals) should be allowed the influence they have on social policy.

You don't have to go to the extreme of deep sea or space. Leave a newborn baby in a nice, comfortable crib with a warm blanket and maybe a bottle of formula next to it... how long will it live without somebody feeding it? A newborn is not viable on it's own.

It's a parasitic growth in a woman's uterus until it is born.

[grizzaholic]

Do you think that everyone that has an abortion are serial abortionists? They just have one every other month, just to have em?

Not at all, but I do think a good majority of the abortions are due to people not using protection. If you don't want a kid, use protection. A $2 condom is a whole lot cheaper than having to pay for an abortion and not to mention the cycle it puts a woman through to be pregnant and then terminate. It isn't good for women.

Notice that I mentioned "discussion" in my original post. My point is that those that act all indignant over their right to an abortion keep trying to propagate the idea that it was all an accident when it was most likely sheer laziness.

All I am asking for is honesty.

And I think that a good portion of abortions are done behind parent's backs due to their religious values as in protection, the pill, whatever are a sin and are not allowed.

[GannonFan]

Not at all, but I do think a good majority of the abortions are due to people not using protection. If you don't want a kid, use protection. A $2 condom is a whole lot cheaper than having to pay for an abortion and not to mention the cycle it puts a woman through to be pregnant and then terminate. It isn't good for women.

Notice that I mentioned "discussion" in my original post. My point is that those that act all indignant over their right to an abortion keep trying to propagate the idea that it was all an accident when it was most likely sheer laziness.

All I am asking for is honesty.

And I think that a good portion of abortions are done behind parent's backs due to their religious values as in protection, the pill, whatever are a sin and are not allowed.

So a person can have sex and get an abortion if a pregnancy results and do all this behind a parents back and against their religious values, but they can't buy a condom or take the pill because of the same religious values? Not real consistent there.

[grizzaholic]

And I think that a good portion of abortions are done behind parent's backs due to their religious values as in protection, the pill, whatever are a sin and are not allowed.

So a person can have sex and get an abortion if a pregnancy results and do all this behind a parents back and against their religious values, but they can't buy a condom or take the pill because of the same religious values? Not real consistent there.

Perhaps I didn't post correctly. I know quite a few people who are religious and it is not allowed to use protection during sex. The only way they can have sex, due to religious beliefs, is to use the old hope and pray you counted your days correctly from period to period.

To me, that seems ludicrous.

And I didn't say that is a reason to have an abortion.

[∞∞∞]

I'm pro-choice, but I'm also pro-state's rights if the laws don't infringe on Constitutional rights (and in my eyes, fetuses have none). If this is what North Dakotans have agreed upon, there is no reason why the citizens of the other 49 states should tell them otherwise.

[GannonFan]

So a person can have sex and get an abortion if a pregnancy results and do all this behind a parents back and against their religious values, but they can't buy a condom or take the pill because of the same religious values? Not real consistent there.

Perhaps I didn't post correctly. I know quite a few people who are religious and it is not allowed to use protection during sex. The only way they can have sex, due to religious beliefs, is to use the old hope and pray you counted your days correctly from period to period.

To me, that seems ludicrous.

And I didn't say that is a reason to have an abortion.

And my point was that if they are that religious to hold their beliefs not to use protection, in most cases the same religious belief they hold to so dearly would also proscribe that they not have sex in the first place, or only within the confines of a committed and sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage). So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

And as for the "old hope and pray" technique, come on, how outdated is that? Amazingly enough, fertility is pretty well able to be tracked by means of tracking waking body temperature and monitoring what goes on "down there" as well as the tracking in between periods. It's actually a method that fertility clinics as well as others use to help people who have had trouble conceiving to be able to conceive. Amazingly, simple science is able to tell us, with reasonable accuracy, when during a month someone ovulates and is able to become pregnant. And it is relatively simple, regardless of a religious belief.

[grizzaholic]

Perhaps I didn't post correctly. I know quite a few people who are religious and it is not allowed to use protection during sex. The only way they can have sex, due to religious beliefs, is to use the old hope and pray you counted your days correctly from period to period.

To me, that seems ludicrous.

And I didn't say that is a reason to have an abortion.

And my point was that if they are that religious to hold their beliefs not to use protection, in most cases the same religious belief they hold to so dearly would also proscribe that they not have sex in the first place, or only within the confines of a committed and sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage). So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

And as for the "old hope and pray" technique, come on, how outdated is that? Amazingly enough, fertility is pretty well able to be tracked by means of tracking waking body temperature and monitoring what goes on "down there" as well as the tracking in between periods. It's actually a method that fertility clinics as well as others use to help people who have had trouble conceiving to be able to conceive. Amazingly, simple science is able to tell us, with reasonable accuracy, when during a month someone ovulates and is able to become pregnant. And it is relatively simple, regardless of a religious belief.

And you were never a teenager...especially one that lives in a household with religious parents?

EDIT: You win. Abortion should be illegal and if you administer one you will be hung by your ankles and beaten with baseball bats, if you receive one you will be stoned to death.

[Ibanez]

Perhaps I didn't post correctly. I know quite a few people who are religious and it is not allowed to use protection during sex. The only way they can have sex, due to religious beliefs, is to use the old hope and pray you counted your days correctly from period to period.

To me, that seems ludicrous.

And I didn't say that is a reason to have an abortion.

And my point was that if they are that religious to hold their beliefs not to use protection, in most cases the same religious belief they hold to so dearly would also proscribe that they not have sex in the first place, or only within the confines of a committed and sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage). So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

And as for the "old hope and pray" technique, come on, how outdated is that? Amazingly enough, fertility is pretty well able to be tracked by means of tracking waking body temperature and monitoring what goes on "down there" as well as the tracking in between periods. It's actually a method that fertility clinics as well as others use to help people who have had trouble conceiving to be able to conceive. Amazingly, simple science is able to tell us, with reasonable accuracy, when during a month someone ovulates and is able to become pregnant. And it is relatively simple, regardless of a religious belief.

Religious hypocrites will always be around. They preach against the government being too involved in thier lives then want to ban gay marriage. They want to enslave other races because they are inferior and use religion to condone it. They want to push thier morals on other people but don't want other morals pushed on them. They condone other sinful acts in the bible (gluttony, touching the skin of a dead animal, planting crops close together, wearing clothes made of two or more fabrics. Which, btw, the punishment is death) yet they condemn two loving adults of the same sex wanting to be together. These people want to kill murders but not babies. They'll rush thier pregnant, 18yr old daughter into a loveless marriage which will end in divorce thus ruining the sanctity of marriage. I know i'm generalizing but it's true.

[grizzaholic]

And my point was that if they are that religious to hold their beliefs not to use protection, in most cases the same religious belief they hold to so dearly would also proscribe that they not have sex in the first place, or only within the confines of a committed and sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage). So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

And as for the "old hope and pray" technique, come on, how outdated is that? Amazingly enough, fertility is pretty well able to be tracked by means of tracking waking body temperature and monitoring what goes on "down there" as well as the tracking in between periods. It's actually a method that fertility clinics as well as others use to help people who have had trouble conceiving to be able to conceive. Amazingly, simple science is able to tell us, with reasonable accuracy, when during a month someone ovulates and is able to become pregnant. And it is relatively simple, regardless of a religious belief.

Religious hypocrites will always be around. They preach against the government being too involved in thier lives then want to ban gay marriage. They want to enslave other races because they are inferior and use religion to condone it. They want to push thier morals on other people but don't want other morals pushed on them. They condone other sinful acts in the bible (gluttony, touching the skin of a dead animal, planting crops close together, wearing clothes made of two or more fabrics. Which, btw, the punishment is death) yet they condemn two loving adults of the same sex wanting to be together. These people want to kill murders but not babies. They'll rush thier pregnant, 18yr old daughter into a loveless marriage which will end in divorce thus ruining the sanctity of marriage. I know i'm generalizing but it's true.

I believe you forgot shellfish..or perhaps it was just shrimp, I don't know.

[Ibanez]

And my point was that if they are that religious to hold their beliefs not to use protection, in most cases the same religious belief they hold to so dearly would also proscribe that they not have sex in the first place, or only within the confines of a committed and sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage). So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

And as for the "old hope and pray" technique, come on, how outdated is that? Amazingly enough, fertility is pretty well able to be tracked by means of tracking waking body temperature and monitoring what goes on "down there" as well as the tracking in between periods. It's actually a method that fertility clinics as well as others use to help people who have had trouble conceiving to be able to conceive. Amazingly, simple science is able to tell us, with reasonable accuracy, when during a month someone ovulates and is able to become pregnant. And it is relatively simple, regardless of a religious belief.

And you were never a teenager...especially one that lives in a household with religious parents?

EDIT: You win. Abortion should be illegal and if you administer one you will be hung by your ankles and beaten with baseball bats, if you receive one you will be stoned to death.

It boils down to education and having involved parents. It boils down to reality. I was raised in a strict, Catholic househould but my folks were realistic. They never told me to not drink or to wait for marriage. They told me that If I am going to do those things then I should be responsible and be ready to be held accountable. I appreciated the realistic approach.

[Ibanez]

Religious hypocrites will always be around. They preach against the government being too involved in thier lives then want to ban gay marriage. They want to enslave other races because they are inferior and use religion to condone it. They want to push thier morals on other people but don't want other morals pushed on them. They condone other sinful acts in the bible (gluttony, touching the skin of a dead animal, planting crops close together, wearing clothes made of two or more fabrics. Which, btw, the punishment is death) yet they condemn two loving adults of the same sex wanting to be together. These people want to kill murders but not babies. They'll rush thier pregnant, 18yr old daughter into a loveless marriage which will end in divorce thus ruining the sanctity of marriage. I know i'm generalizing but it's true.

I believe you forgot shellfish..or perhaps it was just shrimp, I don't know.

Thanks.

[grizzaholic]

And you were never a teenager...especially one that lives in a household with religious parents?

EDIT: You win. Abortion should be illegal and if you administer one you will be hung by your ankles and beaten with baseball bats, if you receive one you will be stoned to death.

It boils down to education and having involved parents. It boils down to reality. I was raised in a strict, Catholic househould but my folks were realistic. They never told me to not drink or to wait for marriage. They told me that If I am going to do those things then I should be responsible and be ready to be held accountable. I appreciated the realistic approach.

That concept is lost among many.

[CAA Flagship]

Religious hypocrites will always be around.

So will the liberal hypocrites.

[YoUDeeMan]

So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

Uhhh...because everyone does it. Religous folks all over the world have watered down most of their religion's beliefs and practices...pick and choose those things you want to follow and ignore the rest. Religion in this country has become a matter of convenience for everyone involved. If you really follow the books, you are called a fundamentalist (as if it were a bad thing that someone follows the books of their god/s ).

And it isn't limited to religions. Situational ethics for everyone...and be sure to shout at your neighbor if you don't agree with their views.

As far as sex goes, you seem to be a very logical person GannonFan...I mean, Mr. Spock. But, you have to know that most humans are driven by their desires...and those desires can't be put on hold to look for a condum. After all, she/he might change their mind and that would mean one person would not get their rocks off. Perhaps there is pressure because kids feel as if they don't have enough chances to have sex. If we accepted sex as a normal thing, and provided places for kids to have all the sex that they'd want, instead of a sacred, secret, bad thing that can only be performed between people who will commit to each other for the rest of their lives (a high pressure decision when all you want is - at least to someone new to sex - a three or four minute explosion of physical, emotional, and biological bliss), then perhaps people would have a more relaxed, business-like attitude towards sex...one that would allow for a better environment for condom use. Woo-hoo! Yup, that would go over well with the religious folks.

One last thing (about to go on a bike ride with my son), I find it funny that anyone would relate what goes on in a neighbor's house (beating kids, etc.) to what goes on in a neighbor's body. I want 89 to take care of all the cells in his body...they all have a right to live. He is not allowed to hurt himself, specifically his liver, but also any of his other parts because his living cells, all with their rights to live peacefully within him, should not be killed by cigarettes, beer, or golf (it can drive the mind to insanity at times).

[GannonFan]

And my point was that if they are that religious to hold their beliefs not to use protection, in most cases the same religious belief they hold to so dearly would also proscribe that they not have sex in the first place, or only within the confines of a committed and sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage). So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

And as for the "old hope and pray" technique, come on, how outdated is that? Amazingly enough, fertility is pretty well able to be tracked by means of tracking waking body temperature and monitoring what goes on "down there" as well as the tracking in between periods. It's actually a method that fertility clinics as well as others use to help people who have had trouble conceiving to be able to conceive. Amazingly, simple science is able to tell us, with reasonable accuracy, when during a month someone ovulates and is able to become pregnant. And it is relatively simple, regardless of a religious belief.

And you were never a teenager...especially one that lives in a household with religious parents?

EDIT: You win. Abortion should be illegal and if you administer one you will be hung by your ankles and beaten with baseball bats, if you receive one you will be stoned to death.

So what's that, a surrender post? I'm pretty sure I've been a teenager before, unless I'm some 12 year or younger poster here (I'm not). I think you're just having problems dealing with the dissonance of the position that a person will violate their religious beliefs in every other instance (the decision to have sex, the decision to get an abortion, etc) despite it being a sin in every one of those cases, but somehow the religious belief not to wear a condom is so rock hard (pun completely intended) that in that one instance they will hold to their religious beliefs that they so casually discarded in every other case.

[grizzaholic]

And you were never a teenager...especially one that lives in a household with religious parents?

EDIT: You win. Abortion should be illegal and if you administer one you will be hung by your ankles and beaten with baseball bats, if you receive one you will be stoned to death.

So what's that, a surrender post? I'm pretty sure I've been a teenager before, unless I'm some 12 year or younger poster here (I'm not). I think you're just having problems dealing with the dissonance of the position that a person will violate their religious beliefs in every other instance (the decision to have sex, the decision to get an abortion, etc) despite it being a sin in every one of those cases, but somehow the religious belief not to wear a condom is so rock hard (pun completely intended) that in that one instance they will hold to their religious beliefs that they so casually discarded in every other case.

I see that my one example was not PERFECT, oh well. I gave it a shot. I stated my case, you disagreed and I gave up. There is no sense in talking to a brick wall, it is a lose lose situation. Same for you to lecture me on gun rights/hunting/fishing.

I find it much easier to just give in on this and move on to something better...With summer coming, I am thinking of starting up a bikini thread. I think we can both agree on that

[GannonFan]

So why would they so steadfastly adhere to one belief while eschewing another belief?

Uhhh...because everyone does it. Religous folks all over the world have watered down most of their religion's beliefs and practices...pick and choose those things you want to follow and ignore the rest. Religion in this country has become a matter of convenience for everyone involved. If you really follow the books, you are called a fundamentalist (as if it were a bad thing that someone follows the books of their god/s ).

And it isn't limited to religions. Situational ethics for everyone...and be sure to shout at your neighbor if you don't agree with their views.

As far as sex goes, you seem to be a very logical person GannonFan...I mean, Mr. Spock. But, you have to know that most humans are driven by their desires...and those desires can't be put on hold to look for a condum. After all, she/he might change their mind and that would mean one person would not get their rocks off. Perhaps there is pressure because kids feel as if they don't have enough chances to have sex. If we accepted sex as a normal thing, and provided places for kids to have all the sex that they'd want, instead of a sacred, secret, bad thing that can only be performed between people who will commit to each other for the rest of their lives (a high pressure decision when all you want is - at least to someone new to sex - a three or four minute explosion of physical, emotional, and biological bliss), then perhaps people would have a more relaxed, business-like attitude towards sex...one that would allow for a better environment for condom use. Woo-hoo! Yup, that would go over well with the religious folks.

One last thing (about to go on a bike ride with my son), I find it funny that anyone would relate what goes on in a neighbor's house (beating kids, etc.) to what goes on in a neighbor's body. I want 89 to take care of all the cells in his body...they all have a right to live. He is not allowed to hurt himself, specifically his liver, but also any of his other parts because his living cells, all with their rights to live peacefully within him, should not be killed by cigarettes, beer, or golf (it can drive the mind to insanity at times).

That's not what he's arguing. He's saying the opposite actually. I agree, passion and desire will often override someone's religious beliefs. The argument being made here is that the passion and desire will do so in every case but the decision to wear a condom or use other birth control. At that point, the person is so ingrained by their religious belief to not use birth control that they'll rationally make a choice to follow that belief. That's the part I'm taking issue with - the idea that they'll succumb to passion and desires and eschew religious beliefs except for that one, and then blaming religion for not using birth control because the person was so adherent to their beliefs (in that one instance only - hell be damned in all the other ones).

[GannonFan]

So what's that, a surrender post? I'm pretty sure I've been a teenager before, unless I'm some 12 year or younger poster here (I'm not). I think you're just having problems dealing with the dissonance of the position that a person will violate their religious beliefs in every other instance (the decision to have sex, the decision to get an abortion, etc) despite it being a sin in every one of those cases, but somehow the religious belief not to wear a condom is so rock hard (pun completely intended) that in that one instance they will hold to their religious beliefs that they so casually discarded in every other case.

I see that my one example was not PERFECT, oh well. I gave it a shot. I stated my case, you disagreed and I gave up. There is no sense in talking to a brick wall, it is a lose lose situation. Same for you to lecture me on gun rights/hunting/fishing.

I find it much easier to just give in on this and move on to something better...With summer coming, I am thinking of starting up a bikini thread. I think we can both agree on that

Bikinis.

[CAA Flagship]

I see that my one example was not PERFECT, oh well. I gave it a shot. I stated my case, you disagreed and I gave up. There is no sense in talking to a brick wall, it is a lose lose situation. Same for you to lecture me on gun rights/hunting/fishing.

I find it much easier to just give in on this and move on to something better...With summer coming, I am thinking of starting up a bikini thread. I think we can both agree on that

Bikinis.

What's under Bikinis.

[grizzaholic]

I see that my one example was not PERFECT, oh well. I gave it a shot. I stated my case, you disagreed and I gave up. There is no sense in talking to a brick wall, it is a lose lose situation. Same for you to lecture me on gun rights/hunting/fishing.

I find it much easier to just give in on this and move on to something better...With summer coming, I am thinking of starting up a bikini thread. I think we can both agree on that

Bikinis.

Now that it has been seconded, I will get one going this afternoon when I get back from this bullshit meeting I have to attend in 25 minutes.

[D1B]

And I think that a good portion of abortions are done behind parent's backs due to their religious values as in protection, the pill, whatever are a sin and are not allowed.

So a person can have sex and get an abortion if a pregnancy results and do all this behind a parents back and against their religious values, but they can't buy a condom or take the pill because of the same religious values? Not real consistent there.

Yep, that's sex, amongst the young. Sometimes it's not predictable and planned.

But, I don't expect a 40 year old virgin like you to get this.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

If it doesn't have anything to do with you, why do you give a shit what others do? Really. I would love an answer.

I'm serious... I can't believe how ignorant some of you are. Do you give a shit if their neighbor beats their kids?

I dont......at least a kid can fight back unlike you guys murdering a fetus.

Must be the only way a lib can feel tough.

[D1B]

I'm serious... I can't believe how ignorant some of you are. Do you give a shit if their neighbor beats their kids?

I dont......at least a kid can fight back unlike you guys murdering a fetus.

Must be the only way a lib can feel tough.

Don't forget the conk women, drinking a bottle of scotch a night to kill a fetus, so their money-grubbing and impotent conksband don't know the black kid at the detailing shop is the father.

[Ibanez]

I dont......at least a kid can fight back unlike you guys murdering a fetus.

Must be the only way a lib can feel tough.

Don't forget the conk women, drinking a bottle of scotch a night to kill a fetus, so their money-grubbing and impotent conksband don't know the black kid at the detailing shop is the father.

Don't be so stereotypical.

It could be the hispanic pool boys child.

[GannonFan]

So a person can have sex and get an abortion if a pregnancy results and do all this behind a parents back and against their religious values, but they can't buy a condom or take the pill because of the same religious values? Not real consistent there.

Yep, that's sex, amongst the young. Sometimes it's not predictable and planned.

But, I don't expect a 40 year old virgin like you to get this.

My wife will be amazed by this and my three kids will now be thrilled to learn that they were immaculately conceived and are now on the same level as Jesus and Anakin Skywalker.