Civil War!

[Seahawks08]

Obama vs. McCain

I would argue that even if you, JSO, had run as a Dem in 2008, would have gotten elected. That election had almost zero chance of any republican winning.

And as for the civil war, Palin and Morris are out at Fox News. Also, Jindal calling for the party to purge the idiots. Sounds like a good start to me.

[UNI88]

Moderate Republicans should leave the GOP, take their supporters to a third Party and let the Tea Party/extremists implode.

That would accomplish NOTHING in terms of getting spending under control. Who's been calling for greater fiscal restraint- the "moderate republicans" or the tea party/tea party supporters?

"Moderate Republicans" are the big spending Republicans that are democrat lite when it comes to spending.

You might be right but I think you also need to differentiate between moderate Republicans and neo-conservative Republicans. It's the Neo-Cons such as Dubya who proved they were equal to the Democrats when it came to out of control spending. Moderate Republicans might not be willing to seriously cut spending but they are still better than Neo-Cons.

[BDKJMU]

That would accomplish NOTHING in terms of getting spending under control. Who's been calling for greater fiscal restraint- the "moderate republicans" or the tea party/tea party supporters?

"Moderate Republicans" are the big spending Republicans that are democrat lite when it comes to spending.

You might be right but I think you also need to differentiate between moderate Republicans and neo-conservative Republicans. It's the Neo-Cons such as Dubya who proved they were equal to the Democrats when it came to out of control spending. Moderate Republicans might not be willing to seriously cut spending but they are still better than Neo-Cons.

Bush & Neo-Cons were fiscally irresponsible, national debt increased close to 5 trillion in 8 years. But never had a deficit over 1/2 trillion unless you count FY 09' which was less than 4 months under Bush and 8+ months under Obama, and much of which passed under Obama.

Obama has has taken it to a whole another level. 4 straight trillion+ deficits if you count FY 09', national debt up close to 6 trillion in 4 years.

[JohnStOnge]

Tea Party...anti environment, anti equal rights, anti competition.

Elaborate. Tell us why you think the Tea Party is:

1) Anti Environment
2) Anti Equal Rights
3) Anti Competition

[kalm]

Tea Party...anti environment, anti equal rights, anti competition.

Elaborate. Tell us why you think the Tea Party is:

1) Anti Environment
2) Anti Equal Rights
3) Anti Competition

I checked out two of the most noted members of the congressional Tea Party Caucus, Michelle Bachman and Louie Gohmert and and extrapolated.

(I also checked out the funding. Kochs are a big player, and oil dudes love their subsidies and will spend 100's of millions holding on to their competitive advantage. That aint true competition.)

[JohnStOnge]

All other things aside it amazes me that People act as though one of the major Parties is in crisis because they lost a Presidential election by 51% to 47%. The picture is basically the same as it's been for decades. A divided population and one side got a few percentage points more than the other side.

Yes it's true that the ethnic demographic trend looks good for the Democrats in the long term. But the panic being expressed right now is totally uncalled for. We had 12 years of Republicans winning the White House, 8 years of Democrats winning the White House, 8 years of Republicans winning the White House, and now 8 years of Democrats winning the White House under circumstances where the Democratic candidate had an obvious edge in charisma and telegenicity.

In general, Democrats have had somewhat of an edge in Congress over most of the past 100 years. There is no big change here.

[UNI88]

You might be right but I think you also need to differentiate between moderate Republicans and neo-conservative Republicans. It's the Neo-Cons such as Dubya who proved they were equal to the Democrats when it came to out of control spending. Moderate Republicans might not be willing to seriously cut spending but they are still better than Neo-Cons.

Bush & Neo-Cons were fiscally irresponsible, national debt increased close to 5 trillion in 8 years. But never had a deficit over 1/2 trillion unless you count FY 09' which was less than 4 months under Bush and 8+ months under Obama, and much of which passed under Obama.

Obama has has taken it to a whole another level. 4 straight trillion+ deficits if you count FY 09', national debt up close to 6 trillion in 4 years.

As Cluck says, Obama and Bush are nearly interchangeable. Dubya took it to a whole other level and then Obama went and took it to another level beyond that. The last 12 years have been a fiscal disaster for this country.

[BDKJMU]

Bush & Neo-Cons were fiscally irresponsible, national debt increased close to 5 trillion in 8 years. But never had a deficit over 1/2 trillion unless you count FY 09' which was less than 4 months under Bush and 8+ months under Obama, and much of which passed under Obama.

Obama has has taken it to a whole another level. 4 straight trillion+ deficits if you count FY 09', national debt up close to 6 trillion in 4 years.

As Cluck says, Obama and Bush are nearly interchangeable. Dubya took it to a whole other level and then Obama went and took it to another level beyond that. The last 12 years have been a fiscal disaster for this country.

Agreed. And the only group out there calling for drawing a line in the sand in terms of spending is the Tea Party.

[UNI88]

As Cluck says, Obama and Bush are nearly interchangeable. Dubya took it to a whole other level and then Obama went and took it to another level beyond that. The last 12 years have been a fiscal disaster for this country.

Agreed. And the only group out there calling for drawing a line in the sand in terms of spending is the Tea Party.

You're right as far as a group that actually has influence in Congress. Unfortunately, politics in DC also requires compromise and the Tea Party has shown a complete unwillingness to compromise and that has put the Republicans in a bad situation from a negotiating perspective. Moderate Republicans in swing districts won't take a hard-line stand so when push comes to shove they've demonstrated that they will cave and go with the Democratic proposals rather than risk deadlock.

Libertarians are also willing to seriously cut spending as well and they're willing to do it without the social policy agenda.

[BDKJMU]

Agreed. And the only group out there calling for drawing a line in the sand in terms of spending is the Tea Party.

You're right as far as a group that actually has influence in Congress. Unfortunately, politics in DC also requires compromise and the Tea Party has shown a complete unwillingness to compromise and that has put the Republicans in a bad situation from a negotiating perspective. Moderate Republicans in swing districts won't take a hard-line stand so when push comes to shove they've demonstrated that they will cave and go with the Democratic proposals rather than risk deadlock.

Libertarians are also willing to seriously cut spending as well and they're willing to do it without the social policy agenda.

Compromising and caving has led to continuing to kick the can down the road. Compromising and caving won't get us out of the horrendous fiscal mess that we're in. And thats the problem right there.

[kalm]

Agreed. And the only group out there calling for drawing a line in the sand in terms of spending is the Tea Party.

You're right as far as a group that actually has influence in Congress. Unfortunately, politics in DC also requires compromise and the Tea Party has shown a complete unwillingness to compromise and that has put the Republicans in a bad situation from a negotiating perspective. Moderate Republicans in swing districts won't take a hard-line stand so when push comes to shove they've demonstrated that they will cave and go with the Democratic proposals rather than risk deadlock.

Libertarians are also willing to seriously cut spending as well and they're willing to do it without the social policy agenda.

That's why this is the only option left for true conservatives.

[JohnStOnge]

Libertarians do have a social policy agenda. They (we) support legalization of recreational drugs. Also things like prostitution.

In fact, I'd say things that fall into the "social policy" category are more important overall...if one had to choose...than things that fall into the "economic policy" category are to Libertarians. The two are difficult to separate in some instances. But I don't think saying that "social policy" is unimportant to Libertarians is correct. It's extremely important.

[BDKJMU]

Libertarians do have a social policy agenda. They (we) support legalization of recreational drugs. Also things like prostitution.

In fact, I'd say things that fall into the "social policy" category are more important overall...if one had to choose...than things that fall into the "economic policy" category are to Libertarians. The two are difficult to separate in some instances. But I don't think saying that "social policy" is unimportant to Libertarians is correct. It's extremely important.

If the Liberatarians want to leave anything that's not specifically spelled out in the constitution up to the states (I don't know if they do or not) then I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Some examples:

Recreational drugs- leave it up to the states- states rights.
Gay marriage- leave it up to the states- states rights.
Prostitution- leave it up to the states- states rights.
Abortion-leave it up to the states- states rights (this isn't left up to the states now).
Minimum wage- leave it up to the states- states rights.

I could go on...

[UNI88]

You're right as far as a group that actually has influence in Congress. Unfortunately, politics in DC also requires compromise and the Tea Party has shown a complete unwillingness to compromise and that has put the Republicans in a bad situation from a negotiating perspective. Moderate Republicans in swing districts won't take a hard-line stand so when push comes to shove they've demonstrated that they will cave and go with the Democratic proposals rather than risk deadlock.

Libertarians are also willing to seriously cut spending as well and they're willing to do it without the social policy agenda.

Compromising and caving has led to continuing to kick the can down the road. Compromising and caving won't get us out of the horrendous fiscal mess that we're in. And that's the problem right there.

I have no problem with the Republicans holding the line but they need to be smart about it and:
1) make sure they have consensus and that the individual members will stick together
2) make the case to the American people about why they're holding the line and why it's good for the country long-term and not just them being obstructionist. The Tea Party has to get off of their high horses and make their case to everyone not just their devoted followers.

Done effectively, this gives the centrist Republicans in swing districts the cover they need to hold the line. Done ineffectively, you have the catastrophe that was the fiscal cliff negotiations where the compromises that Boehner had worked on would have been preferable to what actually passed.

[BDKJMU]

Compromising and caving has led to continuing to kick the can down the road. Compromising and caving won't get us out of the horrendous fiscal mess that we're in. And that's the problem right there.

I have no problem with the Republicans holding the line but they need to be smart about it and:
1) make sure they have consensus and that the individual members will stick together
2) make the case to the American people about why they're holding the line and why it's good for the country long-term and not just them being obstructionist. The Tea Party has to get off of their high horses and make their case to everyone not just their devoted followers.

Done effectively, this gives the centrist Republicans in swing districts the cover they need to hold the line. Done ineffectively, you have the catastrophe that was the fiscal cliff negotiations where the compromises that Boehner had worked on would have been preferable to what actually passed.

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can understand.

[kalm]

I have no problem with the Republicans holding the line but they need to be smart about it and:
1) make sure they have consensus and that the individual members will stick together
2) make the case to the American people about why they're holding the line and why it's good for the country long-term and not just them being obstructionist. The Tea Party has to get off of their high horses and make their case to everyone not just their devoted followers.

Done effectively, this gives the centrist Republicans in swing districts the cover they need to hold the line. Done ineffectively, you have the catastrophe that was the fiscal cliff negotiations where the compromises that Boehner had worked on would have been preferable to what actually passed.

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can continue to be duped into thinking they are looking out for his best interests and standard of living.

FIFY while fully acknowledging both sides play this game. Republicans might be a little better at it though.

[BDKJMU]

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can continue to be duped into thinking they are looking out for his best interests and standard of living.

FIFY while fully acknowledging both sides play this game. Republicans might be a little better at it though.

I beg to differ....

[kalm]

FIFY while fully acknowledging both sides play this game. Republicans might be a little better at it though.

I beg to differ....

I'm sure you do and that's great. This board would be pretty damn boring if we all agreed. You wouldn't have near as much to say without a liberal villain like me to kick around.

[AZGrizFan]

I have no problem with the Republicans holding the line but they need to be smart about it and:
1) make sure they have consensus and that the individual members will stick together
2) make the case to the American people about why they're holding the line and why it's good for the country long-term and not just them being obstructionist. The Tea Party has to get off of their high horses and make their case to everyone not just their devoted followers.

Done effectively, this gives the centrist Republicans in swing districts the cover they need to hold the line. Done ineffectively, you have the catastrophe that was the fiscal cliff negotiations where the compromises that Boehner had worked on would have been preferable to what actually passed.

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can understand.

Tea Partiers DO articulate their message. It's just drowned out by the talking heads at the White House, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and Comedy Central.

[Grizalltheway]

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can understand.

Tea Partiers DO articulate their message. It's just drowned out by the talking heads at the White House, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and Comedy Central.

Well, when you leave it up to the mouth breathers at Faux News to convey a political message, it doesn't really stand a chance, does it?

[Ibanez]

You're right as far as a group that actually has influence in Congress. Unfortunately, politics in DC also requires compromise and the Tea Party has shown a complete unwillingness to compromise and that has put the Republicans in a bad situation from a negotiating perspective. Moderate Republicans in swing districts won't take a hard-line stand so when push comes to shove they've demonstrated that they will cave and go with the Democratic proposals rather than risk deadlock.

Libertarians are also willing to seriously cut spending as well and they're willing to do it without the social policy agenda.

Compromising and caving has led to continuing to kick the can down the road. Compromising and caving won't get us out of the horrendous fiscal mess that we're in. And thats the problem right there.

Not compromising will do more harm. How do you not understand that?

[Ibanez]

I have no problem with the Republicans holding the line but they need to be smart about it and:
1) make sure they have consensus and that the individual members will stick together
2) make the case to the American people about why they're holding the line and why it's good for the country long-term and not just them being obstructionist. The Tea Party has to get off of their high horses and make their case to everyone not just their devoted followers.

Done effectively, this gives the centrist Republicans in swing districts the cover they need to hold the line. Done ineffectively, you have the catastrophe that was the fiscal cliff negotiations where the compromises that Boehner had worked on would have been preferable to what actually passed.

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can understand.

Republicans can start by saying they ceasing the rhetoric about Govt getting to involved with outlives yet they don't want gays to marry or women to have a choice.

[Ibanez]

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can understand.

Tea Partiers DO articulate their message. It's just drowned out by the talking heads at the White House, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and Comedy Central.

All of which are entertainment channels. No real news. Unless you watch PBS or listen to NPR.

[Grizalltheway]

Good points. Republicans do need to do a better job articulating their message that the AVG JOE can understand.

Republicans can start by saying they ceasing the rhetoric about Govt getting to involved with outlives yet they don't want gays to marry or women to have a choice.

Massive amounts of cognitive dissonance there, and I think most independents who might otherwise identify with the GOP are sharp enough to recognize it.

[AZGrizFan]

Tea Partiers DO articulate their message. It's just drowned out by the talking heads at the White House, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and Comedy Central.

All of which are entertainment channels. No real news. Unless you watch PBS or listen to NPR.

Which NOONE does.