Ban Lead

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kalm
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Ban Lead

Post by kalm »

This flies face of a bunch of pre-conceived notions on what leads to violence, but the correlation appears to be strong. Lead poisoning...

Thank you EPA! :nod:
Yes, lead poisoning could really be a cause of violent crime
It seems crazy, but the evidence about lead is stacking up. Behind crimes that have destroyed so many lives, is there a much greater crime?

I began by reading the papers. Do they say what the article claims? They do. Then I looked up the citations: the discussion of those papers in the scientific literature. The three whose citations I checked have been mentioned, between them, 301 times. I went through all these papers (except the handful in foreign languages), as well as dozens of others. To my astonishment, I could find just one study attacking the thesis, and this was sponsored by the Ethyl Corporation, which happens to have been a major manufacturer of the petrol additive tetraethyl lead. I found many more supporting it. Crazy as this seems, it really does look as if lead poisoning could be the major cause of the rise and fall of violent crime.

The curve is much the same in all the countries these papers have studied. Lead was withdrawn first from paint and then from petrol at different times in different places (beginning in the 1970s in the US in the case of petrol, and the 1990s in many parts of Europe), yet despite these different times and different circumstances, the pattern is the same: violent crime peaks around 20 years after lead pollution peaks. The crime rates in big and small cities in the US, once wildly different, have now converged, also some 20 years after the phase-out.

Nothing else seems to explain these trends. The researchers have taken great pains to correct for the obvious complicating variables: social, economic and legal factors. One paper found, after 15 variables had been taken into account, a four-fold increase in homicides in US counties with the highest lead pollution. Another discovered that lead levels appeared to explain 90% of the difference in rates of aggravated assault between US cities.

A study in Cincinnati finds that young people prosecuted for delinquency are four times more likely than the general population to have high levels of lead in their bones. A meta-analysis (a study of studies) of 19 papers found no evidence that other factors could explain the correlation between exposure to lead and conduct problems in young people.

Is it really so surprising that a highly potent nerve toxin causes behavioural change? The devastating and permanent impacts of even very low levels of lead on IQ have been known for many decades. Behavioural effects were first documented in 1943: infants who had tragically chewed the leaded paint off the railings of their cots were found, years after they had recovered from acute poisoning, to be highly disposed to aggression and violence.

Lead poisoning in infancy, even at very low levels, impairs the development of those parts of the brain (the anterior cingulate cortex and prefrontal cortex) that regulate behaviour and mood. The effect is stronger in boys than in girls. Lead poisoning is associated with attention deficit disorder, impulsiveness, aggression and, according to one paper, psychopathy. Lead is so toxic that it is unsafe at any level.

Because they were more likely to live in inner cities, in unrenovated housing whose lead paint was peeling and beside busy roads, African Americans have been subjected to higher average levels of lead poisoning than white Americans. One study, published in 1986, found that 18% of white children but 52% of black children in the US had over 20 milligrammes per decilitre of lead in their blood; another found that, between 1976 and 1980, black infants were eight times more likely to be carrying the horrendous load of 40mg/dl. This, two papers propose, could explain much of the difference in crime rates between black and white Americans, and the supposed difference in IQ trumpeted by the book The Bell Curve.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ish-export" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by Ivytalk »

Kalm, why don't you give your great good friend Lisa Jackson a big French kiss for me? :lol:
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by grizzaholic »

And a big fuck you to anyone that wishes to ban lead. Shame on all of you.
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by kalm »

grizzaholic wrote:And a big fuck you to anyone that wishes to ban lead. Shame on all of you.
But in high concentrations in our air or paint chips cracking off our ceiling it makes already unstable people misuse firearms. Why do you hate guns...and Tommy Boy? :ohno:
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote:This flies face of a bunch of pre-conceived notions on what leads to violence, but the correlation appears to be strong.
Dammit kalm. I must have spent 5 minutes with this hangover of mine trying to figure out the first few words of your sentence. Once the coffee kicked in I realized that you omitted a few words. :twisted:

:lol:
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by kalm »

CAA Flagship wrote:
kalm wrote:This flies face of a bunch of pre-conceived notions on what leads to violence, but the correlation appears to be strong.
Dammit kalm. I must have spent 5 minutes with this hangover of mine trying to figure out the first few words of your sentence. Once the coffee kicked in I realized that you omitted a few words. :twisted:

:lol:
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by Col Hogan »

I would argue that lead, administered properly, can END a violent episode...
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by kalm »

Col Hogan wrote:I would argue that lead, administered properly, can END a violent episode...
Of course that's true. I was tongue in cheek with the thread title.
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by JohnStOnge »

Looks like a plausible hypothesis. I'm talking about the hypothesis that there was a cause and effect relationship between level of leaded gasoline use and violent crime rates over time. Lots of observational epidemiological data on lead effects along with animal experiments including on monkeys that show behavioral effects. There's an association between IQ and likelihood of being involved in violent crime such that lower IQ is associated with higher likelihood of violent crime. Wouldn't be a shock to find that, all other things being equal, a population of people that had high blood lead levels during early development commits violent crime at a higher rate than a population that didn't such levels does.

If y'all are interested I think this is at least part of the Mother Jones content the author referenced:

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/ ... k-gasoline" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I do wonder about some things though. Like if you go to http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2 ... small-ones" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you can see a discussion that includes the thing about the convergence of violent crime rates in "Big" and "Small" cities. "Big" cities are defined as those of 1 million or more population. "Small" cities are defined as those of from 100,000 to 250,000 population.

There's a little bit of a red flag represented by the fact that information on cities of other sizes, and especially those in the 250,000 to 1,000,000 range, isn't provided. Sometimes when people do stuff like that it turns out that including the "missing" information would detract from their argument. Doesn't HAVE to be the case. But it's the kind of thing that should make one wonder.

Another thing is the question of why 23 years was chosen as the lag time for assessing the association between leaded gasoline use and violent crime rates. If it was chosen independently ahead of time that's good. You know, someone looks at the data and literature on the effects of lead and chooses a lag time based on that beforehand THEN looks at the data. But if it was a thing where he went in trying to see evidence of the gasoline/crime association and picked a lag time that best fit his pre conceived belief that makes the evidence weaker. I can actually look at that question as there is a link to the paper.

But not right now. A friggin choupique (bowfin) caused me to lose my Bass Pro Leatherman yesterday so I have to go to the Bass Pro and get another one. Caught the bastard and used my Leatherman to hold his lower jaw while I pulled the hook out. Done that sort of things countless time when I caught fish with sharp teeth. But THIS time when I flicked my wrist to throw the choupique back in the water the bastard's teeth caught my Leatherman just right and pulled it out of my hand. There it went flying out into the water with the fish.

Damn pre-historic fish. You can really get an idea as to the teeth on those bastards by looking at this picture of a skull:

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Re: Ban Lead

Post by kalm »

Forceps John, forceps.
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by grizzaholic »

kalm wrote:
grizzaholic wrote:And a big fuck you to anyone that wishes to ban lead. Shame on all of you.
But in high concentrations in our air or paint chips cracking off our ceiling it makes already unstable people misuse firearms. Why do you hate guns...and Tommy Boy? :ohno:
Try getting lead in California....did you hear that all potatoes that enter the state of California must have a sticker that states they cause cancer?
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by JohnStOnge »

Thank you EPA!
The problem with establishing an agency like the EPA is that once you establish them they don't know when to stop. Yes it's better than not doing anything. And it's great that people recognized the effects of lead exposure and did something to reduce lead exposure. But then once the agency is established there is no point at which it says, "OK. We have enough regulation." They keep looking for problems. And they end up doing stuff like imposing draconian regulations to control ozone when evidence for ozone causing health problems is nothing like the evidence for lead causing health problems. And they declare carbon dioxide to be a "pollutant" based on uncertain climate science which, again, represents nothing like the certainty associated with the lead issue. You establish something that does some good things but ends up becoming a monster.
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Re: Ban Lead

Post by JohnStOnge »

This flies face of a bunch of pre-conceived notions on what leads to violence
I don't know if that's true. When somebody says one variable wasn't "explained" by other variables that does not necessarily mean the the other variables did not have an effect. It just means that the variable in question is still "significant" when the other variables were mathematically taken into account.

I strongly suspect, for instance, that socioeconomic status is still a "significant" variable when lead exposure is taken into account. Same with an association involving males in certain age groups wherein testosterone levels are high on average. Obviously, violence has historically occurred in the total absence of leaded gasoline.

Accepting the idea that lead exposure is a factor in violent behavior does not mean rejecting the idea that other things are factors as well.
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