Atheists and the origin of the Universe

[SeattleGriz]

Good one, dork.

Do you have to pay this guy royalties every time you use his picture???

I bet you'd owe him a boatload of $$$

Ouch, truth hurts.

[D1B]

Good one, dork.

Do you have to pay this guy royalties every time you use his picture???

I bet you'd owe him a boatload of $$$

Ask Dil Dobie.

[D1B]

Do you have to pay this guy royalties every time you use his picture???

I bet you'd owe him a boatload of $$$

Ouch, truth hurts.

You out of rehab for the day?

[SeattleGriz]

Ouch, truth hurts.

You out of rehab for the day?

Uh oh. Seems as if the only one who actually cares to educate themselves on their belief system is DD. I hear nothing but crickets.

Thank you Death Dealer for chiming in. Would love to hear your input not only on the fine tuning of the universe, but on string theory and multiverse as well.

[JoltinJoe]

So, how is theology, particularly monotheism, digging string theory and the resultant multi-verse? And don't fall back on that tired old "we don't know all the mysteries of god, and we can never fully comprehend god's plan" bullarky. Cause if that's the case, then God needs to start sending out memos.

Maybe you can explain to me why the string theory is some threat to monotheism? I see that it is frequently claimed and yet I think it flows from a lack of knowledge of the philosophical underpinning of monotheism.

Many metaphysicists have claimed, for centuries, that dimensions exist beyond human perception. Many of the early church theologians posited that God is a force which exists in dimensions we do not readily perceive.

So then, centuries later, quantum physics catches up with the idea of extra-sensory dimensions, and I should feel threatened by this idea? Why? I feel I should be saying, "Aha! I was right!"

I feel these advances in quantum physics only support the opinions I formed in college.

[D1B]

So, how is theology, particularly monotheism, digging string theory and the resultant multi-verse? And don't fall back on that tired old "we don't know all the mysteries of god, and we can never fully comprehend god's plan" bullarky. Cause if that's the case, then God needs to start sending out memos.

Maybe you can explain to me why the string theory is some threat to monotheism? I see that it is frequently claimed and yet I think it flows from a lack of knowledge of the philosophical underpinning of monotheism.

Many metaphysicists have claimed, for centuries, that dimensions exist beyond human perception. Many of the early church theologians posited that God is a force which exists in dimensions we do not readily perceive.

So then, centuries later, quantum physics catches up with the idea of extra-sensory dimensions, and I should feel threatened by this idea? Why? I feel I should be saying, "Aha! I was right!"

I feel these advances in quantum physics only support the opinions I formed in college.

How about some quotes and sources from the church theologians.

[D1B]

So, how is theology, particularly monotheism, digging string theory and the resultant multi-verse? And don't fall back on that tired old "we don't know all the mysteries of god, and we can never fully comprehend god's plan" bullarky. Cause if that's the case, then God needs to start sending out memos.

Maybe you can explain to me why the string theory is some threat to monotheism? I see that it is frequently claimed and yet I think it flows from a lack of knowledge of the philosophical underpinning of monotheism.

Many metaphysicists have claimed, for centuries, that dimensions exist beyond human perception. Many of the early church theologians posited that God is a force which exists in dimensions we do not readily perceive.

So then, centuries later, quantum physics catches up with the idea of extra-sensory dimensions, and I should feel threatened by this idea? Why? I feel I should be saying, "Aha! I was right!"

I feel these advances in quantum physics only support the opinions I formed in college.

So early church theologians were aware of dimensions that we cannot perceive? Also, were they talking about your god as the force operating in dimensions that his prize creations were not able to perceive?

[D1B]

So, how is theology, particularly monotheism, digging string theory and the resultant multi-verse? And don't fall back on that tired old "we don't know all the mysteries of god, and we can never fully comprehend god's plan" bullarky. Cause if that's the case, then God needs to start sending out memos.

Maybe you can explain to me why the string theory is some threat to monotheism? I see that it is frequently claimed and yet I think it flows from a lack of knowledge of the philosophical underpinning of monotheism.

Many metaphysicists have claimed, for centuries, that dimensions exist beyond human perception. Many of the early church theologians posited that God is a force which exists in dimensions we do not readily perceive.

So then, centuries later, quantum physics catches up with the idea of extra-sensory dimensions, and I should feel threatened by this idea? Why? I feel I should be saying, "Aha! I was right!"

I feel these advances in quantum physics only support the opinions I formed in college.

You're right, yet the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists are wrong?

[JohnStOnge]

Nothing is beyond scientific understanding, we just haven't figured out how to understand it at the moment.

It takes a faith that can never be substantiated to believe that.

[D1B]

Joe, how did the early church theologians reconcile the nonsense of the bible, your only source of info about your god, and their god of the dimensions they could not percive?

[kalm]

Nothing is beyond scientific understanding, we just haven't figured out how to understand it at the moment.

It takes a faith that can never be substantiated to believe that.

Will the answers be given when you die?

[JoltinJoe]

Maybe you can explain to me why the string theory is some threat to monotheism? I see that it is frequently claimed and yet I think it flows from a lack of knowledge of the philosophical underpinning of monotheism.

Many metaphysicists have claimed, for centuries, that dimensions exist beyond human perception. Many of the early church theologians posited that God is a force which exists in dimensions we do not readily perceive.

So then, centuries later, quantum physics catches up with the idea of extra-sensory dimensions, and I should feel threatened by this idea? Why? I feel I should be saying, "Aha! I was right!"

I feel these advances in quantum physics only support the opinions I formed in college.

So early church theologians were aware of dimensions that we cannot perceive? Also, were they talking about your god as the force operating in dimensions that his prize creations were not able to perceive?

Of course they were. When Plato wrote his Allegory of the Cave, what do you think he was referring to? He was saying that we perceive mere shadows of actual reality.

There is an unbroken reliance in Church theology on classical metaphysics, and this is evident in Augustine and Aquinas, and even in modern times in the writings of thinkers like Norris Clarke (someone who will be remembered and discussed long after Christopher Hitchens and Paul Kurz are forgotten). It was Norris Clarke, in fact, who introduced me to the string theory and encouraged me to read up on it.

http://www.anselm.edu/Documents/Institu ... harkey.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is in the midst of us, and yet we do not observe it. That certainly can be understood as a claim of a dimension beyond our perception.

[JoltinJoe]

It takes a faith that can never be substantiated to believe that.

Will the answers be given when you die?

You certainly have a better chance of understanding all after your death than while you are living.

[JoltinJoe]

BTW, the first question I ever asked you was whether you believe that it is rational to believe all that is real can be only be touched, seen, heard, tasted or smelt?

Because I think it is completely irrational to believe that we perceive through our five senses all which is real.

[D1B]

So early church theologians were aware of dimensions that we cannot perceive? Also, were they talking about your god as the force operating in dimensions that his prize creations were not able to perceive?

Of course they were. When Plato wrote his Allegory of the Cave, what do you think he was referring to? He was saying that we perceive mere shadows of actual reality.

There is an unbroken reliance in Church theology on classical metaphysics, and this is evident in Augustine and Aquinas, and even in modern times in the writings of thinkers like Norris Clarke (someone who will be remembered and discussed long after Christopher Hitchens and Paul Kurz are forgotten). It was Norris Clarke, in fact, who introduced me to the string theory and encouraged me to read up on it.

http://www.anselm.edu/Documents/Institu ... harkey.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is in the midst of us, and yet we do not observe it. That certainly can be understood as a claim of a dimension beyond our perception.

No one outside catholic wonks and excuse-makers has ever heard of Norris, nor will they. For all practical purposes he never existed and people are abandoning your church in droves. It will end up in the trash heap of history with the nazis and countless other dead religions.

You failed to answer my questions and the Norris link doesn't add anything more than what the Chinese chronicled a thousand years befor your earliest church propagandists.

Catholic excuse-makers employ the "unseen dimension" BS to cover weak dogma and flaws in logic. More important it leaves the door open to just make up shit that will scare or confuse people into worship.

[JohnStOnge]

Will the answers be given when you die?

Don't know.

[D1B]

Will the answers be given when you die?

Don't know.

Who cares about any of this?

[Cap'n Cat]

"Thou art dust and unto dust, thou shalt return."
- every catholic priest, Ash Wednesday

[kalm]

Don't know.

Who cares about any of this?

There are some cosmic questions out there atheists, agnostics, and believers all find interesting...you dullard.

[JohnStOnge]

Questions like this are the reason I think the most defensible position is agnosticism. I'm talking about in the sense of the first definition of "agnostic" in Merriam Webster on line dictionary at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

When I first saw this thread a few days back I looked up a couple of Stephen Hawking works to see if he really supported his positive statement that there is no God. The first one I read, http://www.ralentz.com/old/astro/hawking-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, includes discussion of how the idea that the universe had a beginning historically caused problems for science. It's from 1988 and it doesn't seem dogmatic in the sense of a "positive" assertion that there is no God. One might even interpret it as allowing for the possibility.

But we know that in relatively recent times he declared with great fanfare that there is no God.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 24244.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like the crux of it is:

As recent advances in cosmology suggest, the laws of gravity and quantum theory allow universes to appear spontaneously from nothing.

The article at http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-02/worl ... s=PM:WORLD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; reports, I think, that this is "given the existence of gravity."

Well, gravity is something. So it's not from nothing. Another thing is that I always thought that gravity is associated with matter. But I guess not.

I would enjoy talking to a cosmologist or astrophysicist who understands what Hawking is talking about to get as detailed an explanation as I could comprehend. I would say I'd enjoy talking to Hawking but the physical barrier caused by his disability combined with the difficulty of understanding or at least getting some idea as to his basis and thought process would probably just be too much.

Going in I think that it's another one of those fields where the biggest questions can never be settled at the highest level of certainty. Nobody's ever, for example, going to be able to set up an experiment to see if their idea as to what it takes to generate a universe from "nothing" works. And I think that sometimes the extremely intelligent people involved get carried away in thinking that what can be expressed mathematically is reality. Like the thing with dark matter. They insist that it exists because they see things that don't fit what they would otherwise expect based on the math without it. If they put it into their equations the equations work. So they say most of the matter in the universe is dark matter even though they've never really confirmed that it exists at all.

[D1B]

Who cares about any of this?

There are some cosmic questions out there atheists, agnostics, and believers all find interesting...you dullard.

No shit it's interesting for science you moron. But it's has no practical benefit for the poor, doesn't enhance religion, hasn't saved a kid from being raped by a priest...

[kalm]

There are some cosmic questions out there atheists, agnostics, and believers all find interesting...you dullard.

No shit it's interesting for science you moron. But it's has no practical benefit for the poor, doesn't enhance religion, hasn't saved a kid from being raped by a priest...

Spirituality, recognizing there might be more to life than exists beyond yourself etc, etc, etc.

[death dealer]

There are some cosmic questions out there atheists, agnostics, and believers all find interesting...you dullard.

No shit it's interesting for science you moron. But it's has no practical benefit for the poor, doesn't enhance religion, hasn't saved a kid from being raped by a priest...

Ah, American anti-intellectualism at its finest!

[kalm]

No shit it's interesting for science you moron. But it's has no practical benefit for the poor, doesn't enhance religion, hasn't saved a kid from being raped by a priest...

Ah, American anti-intellectualism at its finest!

[Grizalltheway]

There are some cosmic questions out there atheists, agnostics, and believers all find interesting...you dullard.

No shit it's interesting for science you moron. But it's has no practical benefit for the poor, doesn't enhance religion, hasn't saved a kid from being raped by a priest...

It's called intrinsic value, dipshit.