No argument from me regarding the GI's. It was a great investment. Now, run along and please explain that to your party.kalm wrote:They weren't?CID1990 wrote:
Personal income taxes were not 91%, Kalm.
If you are going to throw that out there then you need to clarify rather than sounding like some MoveOn ad.
Oh, and those GIs actually DID something.
http://m.yahoo.com/w/legobpengine/news/ ... lang=en-US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
BDKJMU wrote:The taxpayers will likely never make $$$ on the deal even if you don't include Ally/GMAC. But you have to include them as they were part of GM before the bailout. The almost 38 billion that the taxpayers are still in the hole to GM and Ally will likely never come close to being be recouped.Ibanez wrote:
My bad. Interesting site. It looks as if GM is making good on its loan and in two years has returned $22.9B to the Gov't including almost $700M in revenue (from dividends). They still owe $27B but i'm willing to say that at the rate they are going, by Dec. 2014 the loan will be almost paid off and the gubmit would have made a little more than $1B on the deal. Not too shabby if you think about how many people kept thier jobs.
http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/11/23/bail ... le-back-gm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is when the government props up the companies with taxpayer dollars, and then starts dictating salaries.Ibanez wrote:BDKJMU wrote:
The taxpayers will likely never make $$$ on the deal even if you don't include Ally/GMAC. But you have to include them as they were part of GM before the bailout. The almost 38 billion that the taxpayers are still in the hole to GM and Ally will likely never come close to being be recouped.
http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/11/23/bail ... le-back-gm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ally has paid back $2.6B and the Gov't has earned $3B in revenue in thier position of shareholder. GM is close to having repaid 50%. Yeah, there is a total of approx. $38B outstanding but GM is paying and paying frequenly. Ally hasn't made a payment since the spring. I wonder what the schedule is for these guys. If I went months without making a payment on a loan, my butt would be in a sling.
Not everything is so doom and gloom.
We have a mixed economy with government as lender of last resort for key industries. What they did is similar to what Bain does, and as Ibanez points out, the government will end up making a profit in the end. Unlike Bain, they won't shut down the business in the process. BTW, the government has a history of saving key sectors in times of crisis without costing the tax payers anything. This isn't socialism as you understand the term.AZGrizFan wrote:It is when the government props up the companies with taxpayer dollars, and then starts dictating salaries.Ibanez wrote:
Ally has paid back $2.6B and the Gov't has earned $3B in revenue in thier position of shareholder. GM is close to having repaid 50%. Yeah, there is a total of approx. $38B outstanding but GM is paying and paying frequenly. Ally hasn't made a payment since the spring. I wonder what the schedule is for these guys. If I went months without making a payment on a loan, my butt would be in a sling.
Not everything is so doom and gloom.
If Obama is a capitalist then you couldn't tell by the way Wall Street thinks of him.They hate his guts which is fine by me!!!kalm wrote:So was Eisenhower a communist when the tax rates were 91% and he built the interstates using public funding? How about the GI Bill? Cuz in capitalism, those GI's should have footed their own bill and UPS, big AG, and Detroit should have built the roads.
Obama is the epitome of corporatist/crony capitalist. Which means you should really like him SH.
They hate his guts so much that they helped him get elected...twice. There's a revolving door between the Whithouse, the regulatory agencies, and Wall Street. They're all friends...regardless of administration.dal4018 wrote:If Obama is a capitalist then you couldn't tell by the way Wall Street thinks of him.They hate his guts which is fine by me!!!kalm wrote:So was Eisenhower a communist when the tax rates were 91% and he built the interstates using public funding? How about the GI Bill? Cuz in capitalism, those GI's should have footed their own bill and UPS, big AG, and Detroit should have built the roads.
Obama is the epitome of corporatist/crony capitalist. Which means you should really like him SH.
Then why are they complaining about paying their fair share in taxes???kalm wrote:They hate his guts so much that they helped him get elected...twice. There's a revolving door between the Whithouse, the regulatory agencies, and Wall Street. They're all friends...regardless of administration.dal4018 wrote:If Obama is a capitalist then you couldn't tell by the way Wall Street thinks of him.They hate his guts which is fine by me!!!
Who said anything about socialism?kalm wrote:We have a mixed economy with government as lender of last resort for key industries. What they did is similar to what Bain does, and as Ibanez points out, the government will end up making a profit in the end. Unlike Bain, they won't shut down the business in the process. BTW, the government has a history of saving key sectors in times of crisis without costing the tax payers anything. This isn't socialism as you understand the term.AZGrizFan wrote:
It is when the government props up the companies with taxpayer dollars, and then starts dictating salaries.
Communism is the final stage of socialism.AZGrizFan wrote:Who said anything about socialism?kalm wrote:
We have a mixed economy with government as lender of last resort for key industries. What they did is similar to what Bain does, and as Ibanez points out, the government will end up making a profit in the end. Unlike Bain, they won't shut down the business in the process. BTW, the government has a history of saving key sectors in times of crisis without costing the tax payers anything. This isn't socialism as you understand the term.
And how did the government's saving of the solar sector work out for the taxpayer?
If that is the case then all of our allies are communist because they practice socialist medicine.Ibanez wrote:Communism is the final stage of socialism.AZGrizFan wrote:
Who said anything about socialism?
And how did the government's saving of the solar sector work out for the taxpayer?
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
Ibanez wrote:Communism is the final stage of socialism.AZGrizFan wrote:
Who said anything about socialism?
And how did the government's saving of the solar sector work out for the taxpayer?
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
Agreed my oldest brother felt the banks and auto industry should have been allowed to suffer from their poor decisions.AZGrizFan wrote:Ibanez wrote: Communism is the final stage of socialism.
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
I see...and the auto industry and banking industry collapses weren't related to bad "decision making".
Actually, it fell victim to the chinks dumping their goods onto our market without facing any kind of tariffs. If they actually played by the rules, the domestic industry mind stand a chance without excessive subsidies.Ibanez wrote:Communism is the final stage of socialism.AZGrizFan wrote:
Who said anything about socialism?
And how did the government's saving of the solar sector work out for the taxpayer?
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
I didn't say that. You only singled out the solar sector.AZGrizFan wrote:Ibanez wrote: Communism is the final stage of socialism.
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
I see...and the auto industry and banking industry collapses weren't related to bad "decision making".
But I put the auto and bank industries in that same "bad business" column.Those so-called Chinks are buying up all our bad debts.Grizalltheway wrote:Actually, it fell victim to the chinks dumping their goods onto our market without facing any kind of tariffs. If they actually played by the rules, the domestic industry mind stand a chance without excessive subsidies.Ibanez wrote: Communism is the final stage of socialism.
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
If you think the taxpayers are going to be made fully whole from the GM bailout then I have some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you.Ibanez wrote:BDKJMU wrote:
The taxpayers will likely never make $$$ on the deal even if you don't include Ally/GMAC. But you have to include them as they were part of GM before the bailout. The almost 38 billion that the taxpayers are still in the hole to GM and Ally will likely never come close to being be recouped.
http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/11/23/bail ... le-back-gm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ally has paid back $2.6B and the Gov't has earned $3B in revenue in thier position of shareholder. GM is close to having repaid 50%. Yeah, there is a total of approx. $38B outstanding but GM is paying and paying frequenly. Ally hasn't made a payment since the spring. I wonder what the schedule is for these guys. If I went months without making a payment on a loan, my butt would be in a sling.
Not everything is so doom and gloom.
You have yet to give any evidence as to the contrary other than you hate Obama for using something that George Bush signed into law. You give no evidence to prove that GM, who has paid almost 50% back will not payback the rest. You seem to think there is some conspiracy where all of these companies will never repay their loans to the government. Give me some evidence to support your conspiracy theory.BDKJMU wrote:If you think the taxpayers are going to be made fully whole from the GM bailout then I have some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you.Ibanez wrote:
Ally has paid back $2.6B and the Gov't has earned $3B in revenue in thier position of shareholder. GM is close to having repaid 50%. Yeah, there is a total of approx. $38B outstanding but GM is paying and paying frequenly. Ally hasn't made a payment since the spring. I wonder what the schedule is for these guys. If I went months without making a payment on a loan, my butt would be in a sling.
Not everything is so doom and gloom.
GM has paid pack about 23 billion of 51 billion- about 45%. But that ignores the GMAC "bad GM" spinoff- between the 2 of them the taxpayers shelled out about 67 billion, and are still almost 38 billion short.Ibanez wrote:You have yet to give any evidence as to the contrary other than you hate Obama for using something that George Bush signed into law. You give no evidence to prove that GM, who has paid almost 50% back will not payback the rest. You seem to think there is some conspiracy where all of these companies will never repay their loans to the government. Give me some evidence to support your conspiracy theory.BDKJMU wrote:
If you think the taxpayers are going to be made fully whole from the GM bailout then I have some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you.
I have an open mind. I voted for Gay Johnson.
If you think GM is going to be sold for a profit then you haven't been paying attention. Here's a couple more. Stating the obvious here buddy. I still owe on a student loan, that doesn't mean the lending company will never see the money. You're reaching. That $51B isn't ignoring GMAC (Ally Financial) because Ally Financial carries its own loan. There are two different disbursements to two different borrows. Remember, GMAC only got the money once they were divested. However, yes I see that Ally has returned more to the Gov't in revenue than it has on its loan. But so far, there is nothing to support a claim that Ally or GM will not repay. It's all speculation. Besides, when you sell something like a house, if your mortgage was for $250,000, you currently owe $200,000 and the house sells for $150,000, guess what? You are still contractally obligated to pay off that $50,000. Do you really believe that the US gave these business loans and said, "Repay what you can, when you can, if you want. No biggie if you don't"?GM has paid pack about 23 billion of 51 billion- about 45%. But that ignores the GMAC "bad GM" spinoff- between the 2 of them the taxpayers shelled out about 67 billion, and are still almost 38 billion short.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ ... ng-program" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You are right on one point. The Govt will have to SELL its shares at $53/share so that it does not take a loss. However, that is coming from the proposal that GM plaid out over the summer and the Treasury said no. The economists are right. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... 10658.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;No evidence- Christ, I already posted a link.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-1 ... -taxpayers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... t/1692217/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GM shares are currently trading at $25.41.
http://www.google.com/search?q=gm+stock ... 24&bih=499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The govt would have to sell its shares at $53 for the taxpayers to not take a loss (and again, that doesn't even include the GMAC portion of the GM bailout). Every economist I've read is saying that the govt is likely to sell at a loss. Yet you call its a conspiracy theory to claim that the the loans won't be re paid back in full. Ok expanos.
Of course, the less the gov't is involved with GM, the more attractive it would be to investors. It's a risk. It's a crap shoot.If GM were to buy back 40 percent of Treasury’s holdings for as much as $5.6 billion, that would add 12 percent to the value of the remaining shares, according to Johnson.
Many conk projections are based on loans not being repaid and the economy never recovering.Ibanez wrote:Stating the obvious here buddy. I still owe on a student loan, that doesn't mean the lending company will never see the money. You're reaching. That $51B isn't ignoring GMAC (Ally Financial) because Ally Financial carries its own loan. There are two different disbursements to two different borrows. Remember, GMAC only got the money once they were divested. However, yes I see that Ally has returned more to the Gov't in revenue than it has on its loan. But so far, there is nothing to support a claim that Ally or GM will not repay. It's all speculation. Besides, when you sell something like a house, if your mortgage was for $250,000, you currently owe $200,000 and the house sells for $150,000, guess what? You are still contractally obligated to pay off that $50,000. Do you really believe that the US gave these business loans and said, "Repay what you can, when you can, if you want. No biggie if you don't"?GM has paid pack about 23 billion of 51 billion- about 45%. But that ignores the GMAC "bad GM" spinoff- between the 2 of them the taxpayers shelled out about 67 billion, and are still almost 38 billion short.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ ... ng-program" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;You are right on one point. The Govt will have to SELL its shares at $53/share so that it does not take a loss. However, that is coming from the proposal that GM plaid out over the summer and the Treasury said no. The economists are right. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... 10658.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;No evidence- Christ, I already posted a link.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-1 ... -taxpayers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... t/1692217/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GM shares are currently trading at $25.41.
http://www.google.com/search?q=gm+stock ... 24&bih=499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The govt would have to sell its shares at $53 for the taxpayers to not take a loss (and again, that doesn't even include the GMAC portion of the GM bailout). Every economist I've read is saying that the govt is likely to sell at a loss. Yet you call its a conspiracy theory to claim that the the loans won't be re paid back in full. Ok expanos.
However, you are not looking at the entire picture. GM isn't selling the company. GM wants the government out of its business and wants the "Government Motors" stigma to vanish. THAT is the basis of their propsal. And the government was right for refusing. So like I said, you have yet to show any evidence that General Motors refuses to repay its loan.
And please, stop putting GM and GMAC together. They are two separate entities in this matter. I don't see you putting Chrysler and Chrysler Financial Services together.
So lets break it down.
GM
Borrowed: $50,744,648,329
Repaid: $22,853,330,885
Outstanding: $27.2B
Ally Financial (formerly GMAC)
Borrowed: $16,290,000,000
Repaid: $2,667,000,000
Outstanding: $10.6B
If anything, you should be angry with Ally for being slow to repay. So as it stands, you have shown evidence that they are repaying and that GM wanted the US out(which the US balked and said no). Henceforth, GM is still paying its loan and other than naysayers like yourself, there is zero evidence that the loan will not be repaid.
All those articles are based off of GM wanting the Gov't out. Which yes, at that stock price it would be out. But the Gov't isn't going to take that big of a loss. There is no credible evidence of GM and Ally not meeting their obligations. All of this talk about the the taxpayers losing money on the bailout is speculation tied to the Treasury selling all of its shares at once, which it hasn't done in other instances and will never do.
Interesting note in one of the articles you linked to
Of course, the less the gov't is involved with GM, the more attractive it would be to investors. It's a risk. It's a crap shoot.If GM were to buy back 40 percent of Treasury’s holdings for as much as $5.6 billion, that would add 12 percent to the value of the remaining shares, according to Johnson.
With GMs current losses and the stock approx. $6 below its IPO, I understand the worry. However, people saying the taxpayer will never recoup the money is just unfounded. There isn't a shred of evidence. All BDK is basing his comments on is the GM discussion of getting the Treasury to sell its shares, which will be at a loss. However, GM has a contract to repay and thus far they have repaid approx. 45%kalm wrote:Many conk projections are based on loans not being repaid and the economy never recovering.Ibanez wrote:
Stating the obvious here buddy. I still owe on a student loan, that doesn't mean the lending company will never see the money. You're reaching. That $51B isn't ignoring GMAC (Ally Financial) because Ally Financial carries its own loan. There are two different disbursements to two different borrows. Remember, GMAC only got the money once they were divested. However, yes I see that Ally has returned more to the Gov't in revenue than it has on its loan. But so far, there is nothing to support a claim that Ally or GM will not repay. It's all speculation. Besides, when you sell something like a house, if your mortgage was for $250,000, you currently owe $200,000 and the house sells for $150,000, guess what? You are still contractally obligated to pay off that $50,000. Do you really believe that the US gave these business loans and said, "Repay what you can, when you can, if you want. No biggie if you don't"?
You are right on one point. The Govt will have to SELL its shares at $53/share so that it does not take a loss. However, that is coming from the proposal that GM plaid out over the summer and the Treasury said no. The economists are right. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... 10658.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However, you are not looking at the entire picture. GM isn't selling the company. GM wants the government out of its business and wants the "Government Motors" stigma to vanish. THAT is the basis of their propsal. And the government was right for refusing. So like I said, you have yet to show any evidence that General Motors refuses to repay its loan.
And please, stop putting GM and GMAC together. They are two separate entities in this matter. I don't see you putting Chrysler and Chrysler Financial Services together.
So lets break it down.
GM
Borrowed: $50,744,648,329
Repaid: $22,853,330,885
Outstanding: $27.2B
Ally Financial (formerly GMAC)
Borrowed: $16,290,000,000
Repaid: $2,667,000,000
Outstanding: $10.6B
If anything, you should be angry with Ally for being slow to repay. So as it stands, you have shown evidence that they are repaying and that GM wanted the US out(which the US balked and said no). Henceforth, GM is still paying its loan and other than naysayers like yourself, there is zero evidence that the loan will not be repaid.
All those articles are based off of GM wanting the Gov't out. Which yes, at that stock price it would be out. But the Gov't isn't going to take that big of a loss. There is no credible evidence of GM and Ally not meeting their obligations. All of this talk about the the taxpayers losing money on the bailout is speculation tied to the Treasury selling all of its shares at once, which it hasn't done in other instances and will never do.
Interesting note in one of the articles you linked to
Of course, the less the gov't is involved with GM, the more attractive it would be to investors. It's a risk. It's a crap shoot.
Guess what? We don't get to SET the rules in the world any more.Grizalltheway wrote:Actually, it fell victim to the chinks dumping their goods onto our market without facing any kind of tariffs. If they actually played by the rules, the domestic industry mind stand a chance without excessive subsidies.Ibanez wrote: Communism is the final stage of socialism.
The Solar sector fell victim to cronyism and not sound decision making. An incredible error by the Administration.
No, the WTO does. But China obviously doesn't care.AZGrizFan wrote:Guess what? We don't get to SET the rules in the world any more.Grizalltheway wrote:
Actually, it fell victim to the chinks dumping their goods onto our market without facing any kind of tariffs. If they actually played by the rules, the domestic industry mind stand a chance without excessive subsidies.
