Layoff Thread:

[UNI88]

Booze prices in Washington jumped significantly after they scrapped the state-run system and went to a private one.

A) we're talking about the FEDERAL government, not State government, Einstein
B) that's a piss-poor example, given that there IS no Federal equivalent

Swing and a miss. Try again.

What about number of locations and variety of choices?

[D1B]

Booze prices in Washington jumped significantly after they scrapped the state-run system and went to a private one.

A) we're talking about the FEDERAL government, not State government, Einstein
B) that's a piss-poor example, given that there IS no Federal equivalent

Swing and a miss. Try again.

A) You said "Government," not "Federal Government."
B) A and B are pretty much the same in your reply, which is stupid.

[kalm]

Hard to tell if you don't get it or can't get it. Companies exist for one reason: profit. What I don't want is a system where my health is in direct competition with an insurance company's profit.


Single payer.

Hard to tell if YOU don't get it or CAN'T get it. Putting ANYTHING in the hands of the government is a recipe for disaster. Period. End of story. Game over.

I mean, seriously. Show me ONE thing the government does well and efficiently and at a lower cost than could be provided by a private company (making a profit, I might add).

War

The VA which has WAY less overhead than United Health.

[AZGrizFan]

Hard to tell if YOU don't get it or CAN'T get it. Putting ANYTHING in the hands of the government is a recipe for disaster. Period. End of story. Game over.

I mean, seriously. Show me ONE thing the government does well and efficiently and at a lower cost than could be provided by a private company (making a profit, I might add).

War

The VA which has WAY less overhead than United Health.

When was the last time you were in a VA hospital? THAT is what you aspire to for our healthcare system????

[AZGrizFan]

A) we're talking about the FEDERAL government, not State government, Einstein
B) that's a piss-poor example, given that there IS no Federal equivalent

Swing and a miss. Try again.

A) You said "Government," not "Federal Government."
B) A and B are pretty much the same in your reply, which is stupid.

Thanks, Ralph.

[kalm]

A) we're talking about the FEDERAL government, not State government, Einstein
B) that's a piss-poor example, given that there IS no Federal equivalent

Swing and a miss. Try again.

What about number of locations and variety of choices?

Doesn't make up for the price increases (especially for the dining/bar industry IMO.

And I drink more now as a result of all these damn choices and convenience.

[D1B]

A) You said "Government," not "Federal Government."
B) A and B are pretty much the same in your reply, which is stupid.

Thanks, Ralph.

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[kalm]

War

The VA which has WAY less overhead than United Health.

When was the last time you were in a VA hospital? THAT is what you aspire to for our healthcare system????

The VA would be a better option for the uninsured's basic healthcare than placing them on Obamacare on everyone else's nickel and portioning 20% of the cost to for profit insurance companies.

Medicare has less overhead too.

[HI54UNI]

Thanks, Ralph.

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[UNI88]

What about number of locations and variety of choices?

Doesn't make up for the price increases (especially for the dining/bar industry IMO.

And I drink more now as a result of all these damn choices and convenience.

It's been a while but if memory serves when Iowa went from state-run to for-profit liquor, the prices went down. Maybe you granola eating, birkenstock & socks wearing hippies up there on the left coast just fvcked it up.

[AZGrizFan]

When was the last time you were in a VA hospital? THAT is what you aspire to for our healthcare system????

The VA would be a better option for the uninsured's basic healthcare than placing them on Obamacare on everyone else's nickel and portioning 20% of the cost to for profit insurance companies.

Medicare has less overhead too.

a) I would agree regarding the VA option...only problem, that only solves the healthcare issue for those close enough to a VA hospital.
b) Medicare only has less overhead because they're not counting all the OTHER departments that are involved in the distribution, collection, and administration of the medicare/medicaid programs. Come on kalm, you're smarter than that.

[AZGrizFan]

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Yes, that was a good one.

[GannonFan]

Hard to tell if you don't get it or can't get it. Companies exist for one reason: profit. What I don't want is a system where my health is in direct competition with an insurance company's profit.


Single payer.

But that's odd. In all single payer (i.e. government run) healthcare systems, decisions are made everyday on the cost benefit of the treatment you are seeking. Some things will be covered, some thing will be deemed unnecessary, and when they say unnecessary, that just means they think it costs too much for the value you'd get back for it. There's a reason why in every country with a single payer system there are certain procedures/drugs/operations that people will leave that country for because they will never be allowed to get that procedure/drug/operation or it will take months to years before getting it. In the end, it's not terribly different than the system we have now - insurance company's will decide what they will and what they won't cover based on a cost/benefit evaluation. The only change is that government will now do the cost/benefit evaluation. In the end, it's all about money.

[kalm]

The VA would be a better option for the uninsured's basic healthcare than placing them on Obamacare on everyone else's nickel and portioning 20% of the cost to for profit insurance companies.

Medicare has less overhead too.

a) I would agree regarding the VA option...only problem, that only solves the healthcare issue for those close enough to a VA hospital.
b) Medicare only has less overhead because they're not counting all the OTHER departments that are involved in the distribution, collection, and administration of the medicare/medicaid programs. Come on kalm, you're smarter than that.

I'm taking random pot shots here but if you want to pic nits, why don't you include all the government resources including administration, compliance, infrastructure, etc that are used by the for-profits? Christ, the reduction in paper work alone would save entire forests, which would lead to less work for the forest service, etc.

(Ok...back to taking pot shots).

[Chizzang]

Doesn't make up for the price increases (especially for the dining/bar industry IMO.

And I drink more now as a result of all these damn choices and convenience.

It's been a while but if memory serves when Iowa went from state-run to for-profit liquor, the prices went down. Maybe you granola eating, birkenstock & socks wearing hippies up there on the left coast just fvcked it up.

I have no idea what those dudes are talking about...
I'm told by reliable sources Liquor prices have dropped dramatically now that booze is at every grocery store and liquor barn whole sale outlet in King Country

I repeat: Dramatic price reductions

[JohnStOnge]

Give me a break. How many people got laid off under Bush?

Stop blaming Obama for the cyclical nature of the economy.

They are specifically saying that they are laying people off because of policies enacted through the activity of the Obama Administration. I guess you could say they're lying. But if they're not lying it's not just a "cyclical nature of the economy" thing.

[kalm]

It's been a while but if memory serves when Iowa went from state-run to for-profit liquor, the prices went down. Maybe you granola eating, birkenstock & socks wearing hippies up there on the left coast just fvcked it up.

I have no idea what those dudes are talking about...
I'm told by reliable sources Liquor prices have dropped dramatically now that booze is at every grocery store and liquor barn whole sale outlet in King Country

I repeat: Dramatic price reductions

No, they've gone up...especially for licensed establishments. This is a case of corporatism/campaign finance issues at its worst.

[BlueHen86]

Give me a break. How many people got laid off under Bush?

Stop blaming Obama for the cyclical nature of the economy.

They are specifically saying that they are laying people off because of policies enacted through the activity of the Obama Administration. I guess you could say they're lying. But if they're not lying it's not just a "cyclical nature of the economy" thing.

They are lying. They can blame Obama if they want, but it's really the economy. They wouldn't be laying people off if they were making money.

[Chizzang]

I have no idea what those dudes are talking about...
I'm told by reliable sources Liquor prices have dropped dramatically now that booze is at every grocery store and liquor barn whole sale outlet in King Country

I repeat: Dramatic price reductions

No, they've gone up...especially for licensed establishments. This is a case of corporatism/campaign finance issues at its worst.

I think maybe eastern Washington might be experiencing this
So you're saying: grocery stores and liquor barns are charging more than state run liquor stores were charging for a bottle of Jack Daniels..?

And in King County..?

I do not believe you yet... I'll do more research

[kalm]

No, they've gone up...especially for licensed establishments. This is a case of corporatism/campaign finance issues at its worst.

I think maybe eastern Washington might be experiencing this
So you're saying: grocery stores and liquor barns are charging more than state run liquor stores were charging for a bottle of Jack Daniels..?

And in King County..?

I do not believe you yet... I'll do more research

You don't have to believe me...but part of my job is writing the checks for a small food and beverage operation so I can tell you with certainty it's true...even in fabulous and aloof King County.

Here's a fairly recent WSJ article to back it up:

RAINIER, Ore.—Washington residents are pouring over the Oregon line this summer to buy liquor after Washington state privatized the sale of hard alcohol—and made the booze more expensive by raising state fees.

Sales at Rainier Liquor Store, the lone liquor outlet in this town of 2,000 residents, are running $2,000 a day higher than last summer, said proprietor Traci Brumbles. Every day "is like a holiday" now, she said.

Ms. Brumbles can thank "liquor sticker shock," the term Washington residents use for a big price rise since June.

Washington residents are pouring over the state line to buy liquor in Oregon towns such as Rainier, as changes to liquor sales drive up prices in Washington state this summer.

"You see something over there that costs $20, and when you get up to the cash register, it's $28," said Matt Phillips, a Longview, Wash., resident who was on his weekly trip across the Columbia River to buy alcohol in Rainier. He bought a fifth of Windsor Canadian whiskey for $19.95 that sells for about $24.50 back home....

Even before privatization, Washington had some of the nation's highest liquor taxes and fees, at $26.70 a gallon. The national average is $7.02 a gallon, said the Tax Foundation, a research group. Washington state's levies included government stores' 52% markup, a 21% liquor sales tax and a $3.77-per-liter excise tax.

And while those sales and excise taxes remain under privatization, new fees further raised prices: Liquor distributors must pay an additional 10% levy, and retailers another 17%. Distributors also are on the hook for any shortfall to the state if they don't generate $150 million from the 10% fee by April.

"It's astronomical and confiscatory for the consumer,'' said David Ozgo, chief economist at the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, which represents U.S. liquor suppliers.

The spillover could potentially damp privatization elsewhere. "It's slowing down the process in others states. It's turning into a negative,'' said Craig Wolf, president of Wine & Spirits Wholesalers of America, a national industry group for wholesalers.
RAINIER, Ore.—Washington residents are pouring over the Oregon line this summer to buy liquor after Washington state privatized the sale of hard alcohol—and made the booze more expensive by raising state fees.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... 05522.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In essence, the large distributers and retailers agreed to raise excise taxes to make up for the state's revenue shortfall, raising already high tax rates almost another 30%. The good news is that yes...prices could fall with increased competition as this altruistic free marketeer from Costco (the company that funded the initiative points out)

Costco and other supporters of Washington's move say they expect prices to drop as more competitors enter the market. "It's remarkable how smoothly this has gone. None of the fears of the opponents of this change have materialized," said Joel Benoliel, chief legal officer for Costco, based in Issaquah, Wash.

Again, this is a great example of why the people shouldn't be entrusted with self governance and finance, especially considering how campaigns are financed. We elect representatives to wade through the morass of a complicated state budget. There is more to consider than Jim Bob being duped into thinking 'ima votin' for it cuz my Monarch Canadian's gonna cost less'

You didn't vote for this one...did you Chizzy?

[UNI88]

I think maybe eastern Washington might be experiencing this
So you're saying: grocery stores and liquor barns are charging more than state run liquor stores were charging for a bottle of Jack Daniels..?

And in King County..?

I do not believe you yet... I'll do more research

You don't have to believe me...but part of my job is writing the checks for a small food and beverage operation so I can tell you with certainty it's true...even in fabulous and aloof King County.

Here's a fairly recent WSJ article to back it up:

RAINIER, Ore.—Washington residents are pouring over the Oregon line this summer to buy liquor after Washington state privatized the sale of hard alcohol—and made the booze more expensive by raising state fees.

Sales at Rainier Liquor Store, the lone liquor outlet in this town of 2,000 residents, are running $2,000 a day higher than last summer, said proprietor Traci Brumbles. Every day "is like a holiday" now, she said.

Ms. Brumbles can thank "liquor sticker shock," the term Washington residents use for a big price rise since June.

Washington residents are pouring over the state line to buy liquor in Oregon towns such as Rainier, as changes to liquor sales drive up prices in Washington state this summer.

"You see something over there that costs $20, and when you get up to the cash register, it's $28," said Matt Phillips, a Longview, Wash., resident who was on his weekly trip across the Columbia River to buy alcohol in Rainier. He bought a fifth of Windsor Canadian whiskey for $19.95 that sells for about $24.50 back home....

Even before privatization, Washington had some of the nation's highest liquor taxes and fees, at $26.70 a gallon. The national average is $7.02 a gallon, said the Tax Foundation, a research group. Washington state's levies included government stores' 52% markup, a 21% liquor sales tax and a $3.77-per-liter excise tax.

And while those sales and excise taxes remain under privatization, new fees further raised prices: Liquor distributors must pay an additional 10% levy, and retailers another 17%. Distributors also are on the hook for any shortfall to the state if they don't generate $150 million from the 10% fee by April.

"It's astronomical and confiscatory for the consumer,'' said David Ozgo, chief economist at the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, which represents U.S. liquor suppliers.

The spillover could potentially damp privatization elsewhere. "It's slowing down the process in others states. It's turning into a negative,'' said Craig Wolf, president of Wine & Spirits Wholesalers of America, a national industry group for wholesalers.
RAINIER, Ore.—Washington residents are pouring over the Oregon line this summer to buy liquor after Washington state privatized the sale of hard alcohol—and made the booze more expensive by raising state fees.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... 05522.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In essence, the large distributers and retailers agreed to raise excise taxes to make up for the state's revenue shortfall, raising already high tax rates almost another 30%. The good news is that yes...prices could fall with increased competition as this altruistic free marketeer from Costco (the company that funded the initiative points out)

Costco and other supporters of Washington's move say they expect prices to drop as more competitors enter the market. "It's remarkable how smoothly this has gone. None of the fears of the opponents of this change have materialized," said Joel Benoliel, chief legal officer for Costco, based in Issaquah, Wash.

Again, this is a great example of why the people shouldn't be entrusted with self governance and finance, especially considering how campaigns are financed. We elect representatives to wade through the morass of a complicated state budget. There is more to consider than Jim Bob being duped into thinking 'ima votin' for it cuz my Monarch Canadian's gonna cost less'

You didn't vote for this one...did you Chizzy?

Couple of things:
1) Did the state run stores charge the same prices throughout the state regardless of shipping costs, lower volume, etc. in eastern Washington? i.e. was western Washington subsidizing eastern Washington?
2) It's not just the switch to for-profit sales that caused the price increase, the government "made the booze more expensive by raising state fees."
3) Kalm - I love this one "this is a great example of why the people shouldn't be entrusted with self governance and finance." Have you forgotten so quickly Nancy Pelosi's " we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" statement? We can't trust the people, we can't trust our elected representatives, who can we trust?

[kalm]

You don't have to believe me...but part of my job is writing the checks for a small food and beverage operation so I can tell you with certainty it's true...even in fabulous and aloof King County.

Here's a fairly recent WSJ article to back it up:



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087 ... 05522.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In essence, the large distributers and retailers agreed to raise excise taxes to make up for the state's revenue shortfall, raising already high tax rates almost another 30%. The good news is that yes...prices could fall with increased competition as this altruistic free marketeer from Costco (the company that funded the initiative points out)





Again, this is a great example of why the people shouldn't be entrusted with self governance and finance, especially considering how campaigns are financed. We elect representatives to wade through the morass of a complicated state budget. There is more to consider than Jim Bob being duped into thinking 'ima votin' for it cuz my Monarch Canadian's gonna cost less'

You didn't vote for this one...did you Chizzy?

Couple of things:
1) Did the state run stores charge the same prices throughout the state regardless of shipping costs, lower volume, etc. in eastern Washington? i.e. was western Washington subsidizing eastern Washington?
2) It's not just the switch to for-profit sales that caused the price increase, the government "made the booze more expensive by raising state fees."
3) Kalm - I love this one "this is a great example of why the people shouldn't be entrusted with self governance and finance." Have you forgotten so quickly Nancy Pelosi's " we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" statement? We can't trust the people, we can't trust our elected representatives, who can we trust?

Did I say we should trust the elected representatives?



The state controlled pricing and it was consistent state wide. I'm not sure how lower volume or shipping would really require any subsidy to E. WA.

And yes, it's the taxes that raised the price, but these were negotiated between the large retailers, distributors, and the state. All parties knew this would happen. Costco basically spent $20 million to convince people otherwise and low information voters like Chizzang believed it.

The initiative process is actually a great topic and one that's up in the air for me. Might have to start another thread on it...

Oh, in regards to your previous post...I don't eat granola...it contains gluten.

[Chizzang]

Indeed I am a low information voter when it comes to this one...
I stopped drinking about 4 or 5 years ago and haven't really paid attention since then
My girlfriend says her favorite wine went down in price

BUT: basically you're saying that what used to cost $20 now costs $24

oh... well stop the press
It sounds like resellers and the state have figured out how to make more money off of heavy drinkers
If a guy buys 3 or 4 bottles a year he's probably not even aware of the price changes
if I'm buying 3 or 4 bottles a month yeah you bet I'd notice


oh well

[AZGrizFan]

They are specifically saying that they are laying people off because of policies enacted through the activity of the Obama Administration. I guess you could say they're lying. But if they're not lying it's not just a "cyclical nature of the economy" thing.

They are lying. They can blame Obama if they want, but it's really the economy. They wouldn't be laying people off if they were making money.

You're just pretending to be stupid here, aren't you?

[BDKJMU]

Orlando hospital cuts 400 jobs due to Obamacare:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/loc ... 3193.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;