People actually vote for these guys.

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by BlueHen86 »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Chizzang wrote:You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)

I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist

:nod:
The Bible is a guide with stories to learn from, most common sense, good vs not so good. There are only 10 rules to follow, and even the most perfect person does not follow them 100%. I think it's mostly based on reason and logic. I just got a operating guide for my leaf blower, and I don't have to follow everything in the guide, just have to put gas in the tank and it runs. If I follow all the instructions, the blower last longer and works better.
So what are you saying? You vote for the guy that blows? :lol:
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Chizzang »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Chizzang wrote:You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)

I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist

:nod:
The Bible is a guide with stories to learn from, most common sense, good vs not so good.
The bible is either the infallible word of god - or - it's stories
If it's just stories and hyperbole (as you suggest) written by people who didn't know what an atom was or bacteria or a star was...

Then it can be dismissed and replaced by new stories that include what we KNOW today

:tothehand: chose wisely :tothehand: but you can't have it both ways
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by CID1990 »

What about those of us who are pro-life for extra-religious reasons?
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:What about those of us who are pro-life for extra-religious reasons?
Everybody is pro-life for extra-religious reasons :rofl:
but they respect the fact that their choices (feelings) shouldn't over ride the choice of the actual person involved and double the fact that now you're involving the government into a situation where it does not belong
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by SeattleGriz »

89Hen wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:D#1 Boo Boo
:lol: :notworthy: That one may stick.
Just bringing this one to the forefront.

D1 Boo Boo. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by JohnStOnge »

and double the fact that now you're involving the government into a situation where it does not belong
So you're saying the government does not belong in a situation where one individual is contemplating arranging a direct, fatal attack upon another individual?
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by death dealer »

In no way can this guys statement be taken as advocating rape. Only a dumbass or someone who hates anyone who doesn't agree with their political views and thus will attempt to slander them in any way possible no matter how obviously contrived would say so. He is a fundamentalist. He believes that his god has a grand plan and that everything that happens, good and bad, is part of that plan (it rains on the just and unjust equally). Jon is right here. If you believe that abortion is wrong because the fetus is a person and killing it is murder then you have to be against it in all circumstances, regardless of how awful. Double down on that if you also believe in the absolute sovereignty of god as fundamentalists do. If you read this guys comments it is clearly obvious to anyone with a brain that this is where he's coming from. I don't agree with the guy, but I'm sick of you donk fucks pulling this kind of blatant half truth/twisting of words bullshit as I am of the Conklin assholes and their crap. I'd like to think nov 2nd would bring at least a reprieve, but I know it won't. I'm all in favor of good discourse, but this thread is not meant to create discourse.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by JohnStOnge »

And where on this thread did JSO say anything about religion?
I will say now, as I have said in many other threads, that I am agnostic.

This is not about religion. It's about biology. An abortion kills a member of our species. It kills a living animal.

In order to justify that you have to enforce your own opinions. You have to do something like say that the individual involved is not a "person" based on your definition of what a "person" is. You have to impose your own belief about the point at which someone else has a right to live upon another individual in order to justify killing that individual.

It's an individual animal. And it's a member of our species. It is a living Homo sapiens. Those things are not debatable. Objective reality. Stuff like saying, "It's not a person until...." is opinion. Thus the true enforcement of belief is on the part of those who seek to justify allowing elective abortion for any reason. They declare that someone else is not a "person" and can therefore be dispatched at the option of the mother.

It is not a matter of a woman deciding what to do with her body because more than her body is involved. Someone else's body is involved as well. Someone else's existence has already been established.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:
and double the fact that now you're involving the government into a situation where it does not belong
So you're saying the government does not belong in a situation where one individual is contemplating arranging a direct, fatal attack upon another individual?
No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by eagleskins »

The bible. lol
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by JohnStOnge »

No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
So you're saying the right of a woman to have another individual that is her own progeny killed is self evident?

I've always shaken my head at the fact that this society as a matter of legality says it's OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing himself or herself; yet at the same time says it's not OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing another individual in the abortion scenario.

It's our body. But government says we can't put certain drugs into it. Government says we can't use it to have sex with others for money. But government can't say a woman can't hire someone to kill an innocent individual that is within her body but is NOT part of it.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
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But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:
No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
So you're saying the right of a woman to have another individual that is her own progeny killed is self evident?

I've always shaken my head at the fact that this society as a matter of legality says it's OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing himself or herself; yet at the same time says it's not OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing another individual in the abortion scenario.

It's our body. But government says we can't put certain drugs into it. Government says we can't use it to have sex with others for money. But government can't say a woman can't hire someone to kill an innocent individual that is within her body but is NOT part of it.
So I guess we're debating the "state of personhood"..?
And I know your opinion because you're actually a fundamentalist christian pretending not to be

:thumb:
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by JohnStOnge »

So I guess we're debating the "state of personhood"..?
And I know your opinion because you're actually a fundamentalist christian pretending not to be
No. I'm saying that when you start defining "personhood" for the purpose of justifying abortion through saying that it doesn't involve killing a "person" you are imposing your own beliefs about what "personhood" is in order to justify a policy through which some living members of our species may be killed for any reason the women carrying them may have or even for no reason.

There are certain objective facts involved. One of them is that the point of abortion is to kill a living animal of the species Homo sapiens with an existence that has already been established. Not a part of the mother's body.

When you get into talking about the "state of personhood" you are introducing subjective opinion. And one individual should not be able to write off another individual's right to live based on the first individual's subjective opinion about what a "person" is.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:
So I guess we're debating the "state of personhood"..?
And I know your opinion because you're actually a fundamentalist christian pretending not to be
No. I'm saying that when you start defining "personhood" for the purpose of justifying abortion through saying that it doesn't involve killing a "person" you are imposing your own beliefs about what "personhood" is in order to justify a policy through which some living members of our species may be killed for any reason the women carrying them may have or even for no reason.

There are certain objective facts involved. One of them is that the point of abortion is to kill a living animal of the species Homo sapiens with an existence that has already been established. Not a part of the mother's body.

When you get into talking about the "state of personhood" you are introducing subjective opinion. And one individual should not be able to write off another individual's right to live based on the first individual's subjective opinion about what a "person" is.
John perhaps it's a person at the point that it can survive without being attached to the mother within where it resides... how can it be a person if it can't live without being attached inside the other human

secondly:
If men were the ones getting pregnant - you'd see abortion shops at the airport
it's pretty easy for YOU to be so sanctimonious and self righteous

You've got NO perspective that actually matters
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by JohnStOnge »

John perhaps it's a person at the point that it can survive without being attached to the mother within where it resides... how can it be a person if it can't live without being attached inside the other human
Two things about that:

1) It's subjective. You are imposing your apparent belief that in order to be a "person" an individual must be able to survive without being attached to the mother within which it survives. So you, apparently, think the other individual may be dispatched because that individual doesn't meet your subjective definition of what a "person" is.

2) It's not a fixed definition. The point at which an individual of our species can survive without being attached to the mother depends on the state of technology. So it means that an individual we say is not a "person" now may be a "person" 20 years from now. Or an individual who was not a "person" by that criterion 100 years ago IS a "person" now.
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Could I ever be a star?

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by JohnStOnge »

f men were the ones getting pregnant - you'd see abortion shops at the airport
it's pretty easy for YOU to be so sanctimonious and self righteous

You've got NO perspective that actually matters
I've seen that line of argument before and it's bogus. My gender makes absolutely no difference to the validity of the argument. The objective reality is that a woman who has an abortion gets someone to kill her own progeny; a living individual member of our species. There are plenty of women who recognize that.

So if one of the women who recognize that makes the same argument, does that mean all of a sudden the validity of the argument changes because she's got "perspective that actually matters?"

Suppose I am a rich guy and there's absolutely no chance that I'll ever be poor. I read about someone who is poor and kills their children in order to take some of the financial pressure off. Are you going to say I can't say it was wrong for them to do that because I can never experience the pressure they were feeling?

Women have a role in our species biology that men don't have. It means they have problems we don't have. Tough break. That's the way it is. It doesn't mean it's right for them to kill their own progeny.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by griz37 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right


I've always shaken my head at the fact that this society as a matter of legality says it's OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing himself or herself; yet at the same time says it's not OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing another individual in the abortion scenario.

It's our body. But government says we can't put certain drugs into it. Government says we can't use it to have sex with others for money. But government can't say a woman can't hire someone to kill an innocent individual that is within her body but is NOT part of it.
JSO I understand your argument here, but I think you will find many pro-choicers, myself included, who think that prostitution should be legal & the drug war ended. I firmly believe the govt. should have no right to tell you what to do to your body.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Pwns »

Chizzang wrote: I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
It's pretty much not possible to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks like this. If you really think 89Hen is a fundamentalist and don't see how abortion is a sticky ethical quandary then what can anyone say that will convince you?
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by 89Hen »

Chizzang wrote:
89Hen wrote: Not much difference. Passing through the vaginal canal is only magical for adults.
But you're a fundamentalist 89hen, you've willfully abandon logic
You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)

I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist

:nod:
:lol: Apparently you've never read any of my posts concerning abortion. Exactly 0% of my stance on abortion comes from the bible or my religion. 100% comes from logic.

The problem is and always has been that the two sides aren't arguing the same thing. It's not whether a woman should have the choice, it's whether the new being growing inside is a person. There is a lot of conflicting legal precedent there as well. If you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with double murder. How can that be? Talk about picking and choosing.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by 89Hen »

Chizzang wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
So you're saying the government does not belong in a situation where one individual is contemplating arranging a direct, fatal attack upon another individual?
No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by 89Hen »

Pwns wrote:
Chizzang wrote: I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
It's pretty much not possible to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks like this. If you really think 89Hen is a fundamentalist and don't see how abortion is a sticky ethical quandary then what can anyone say that will convince you?
No kidding. I'm about as far away from a fundamentalist as regular church-goer can get.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by D1B »

89Hen wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
But you're a fundamentalist 89hen, you've willfully abandon logic
You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)

I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist

:nod:
:lol: Apparently you've never read any of my posts concerning abortion. Exactly 0% of my stance on abortion comes from the bible or my religion. 100% comes from logic.

The problem is and always has been that the two sides aren't arguing the same thing. It's not whether a woman should have the choice, it's whether the new being growing inside is a person. There is a lot of conflicting legal precedent there as well. If you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with double murder. How can that be? Talk about picking and choosing.
If you had a growth inside of you that could potentially:
ruin/radically change your life for at least 20 years - poverty, domestic violence
earn you the scorn of aggressive fundamentalists, perhaps members of your family
set you up for a murder charge (assuming Romney wins)
cost you your job (again, assuming Romney wins)
and just generally be a royal fucking pain in the ass

You would have a much different view. :nod:
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by 89Hen »

D1B wrote:If you had a growth inside of you
And we're done. :coffee:
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by Chizzang »

Honestly this is one of my favorite topics... this (abortion) and God
It's about as awesome as it gets frankly

and pretty much nobody is going to change my perspective on this because I've been pondering it for most of my life and don't really think it's that complicated

First - let me get this out of the way
I do not believe killing a pregnant woman is a double murder - but I don't get to decide that - judges and lawyers do...


2) I believe life and death decision happen all the time and at the micro level inside another person's body - my opinion or feelings shouldn't be a factor - it's inside them - it's their call - it's been that way since the beginning of life itself... it's part of life and the struggle for life
3) I also humorously believe that anybody who thinks the world is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together is too stupid to actually discuss "life" and "reality" they are delusional and partially insane and I would count their ramblings about as seriously as a street person arguing with a lamp post - same - same
4) I also believe that MEN throwing themselves into the abortion argument is a level of sanctimonious babble and self righteousness so absurd - considering that we are born killers - it's what we do - it's part of how we're engineered...

My opinion is mostly - leave it up to women to decide...
and whatever they decide is the way it should be
They've done an amazing job of perpetuating our species across every corner of the globe
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.

Post by 89Hen »

Chizzang wrote:Honestly this is one of my favorite topics... this (abortion) and God
It's about as awesome as it gets frankly

and pretty much nobody is going to change my perspective on this because I've been pondering it for most of my life and don't really think it's that complicated

First - let me get this out of the way
I do not believe killing a pregnant woman is a double murder - but I don't get to decide that - judges and lawyers do...


2) I believe life and death decision happen all the time and at the micro level inside another person's body - my opinion or feelings shouldn't be a factor - it's inside them - it's their call - it's been that way since the beginning of life itself... it's part of life and the struggle for life
3) I also humorously believe that anybody who thinks the world is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together is too stupid to actually discuss "life" and "reality" they are delusional and partially insane and I would count their ramblings about as seriously as a street person arguing with a lamp post - same - same
4) I also believe that MEN throwing themselves into the abortion argument is a level of sanctimonious babble and self righteousness so absurd - considering that we are born killers - it's what we do - it's part of how we're engineered...

My opinion is mostly - leave it up to women to decide...
and whatever they decide is the way it should be
They've done an amazing job of perpetuating our species across every corner of the globe
1. We disagree on that one.
2. I honestly don't know what you mean on this one.
3. Not sure what this point has to do with you or me.
4. This cuts to the core of the disagreement. I don't believe a baby is property of a woman. You do.
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