So what are you saying? You vote for the guy that blows?Gil Dobie wrote:The Bible is a guide with stories to learn from, most common sense, good vs not so good. There are only 10 rules to follow, and even the most perfect person does not follow them 100%. I think it's mostly based on reason and logic. I just got a operating guide for my leaf blower, and I don't have to follow everything in the guide, just have to put gas in the tank and it runs. If I follow all the instructions, the blower last longer and works better.Chizzang wrote:You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)
I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist
People actually vote for these guys.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
The bible is either the infallible word of god - or - it's storiesGil Dobie wrote:The Bible is a guide with stories to learn from, most common sense, good vs not so good.Chizzang wrote:You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)
I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist
If it's just stories and hyperbole (as you suggest) written by people who didn't know what an atom was or bacteria or a star was...
Then it can be dismissed and replaced by new stories that include what we KNOW today
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
What about those of us who are pro-life for extra-religious reasons?
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
Everybody is pro-life for extra-religious reasonsCID1990 wrote:What about those of us who are pro-life for extra-religious reasons?
but they respect the fact that their choices (feelings) shouldn't over ride the choice of the actual person involved and double the fact that now you're involving the government into a situation where it does not belong
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
Just bringing this one to the forefront.89Hen wrote:SeattleGriz wrote:D#1 Boo Boo![]()
That one may stick.
D1 Boo Boo.
Everything is better with SeattleGriz
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
So you're saying the government does not belong in a situation where one individual is contemplating arranging a direct, fatal attack upon another individual?and double the fact that now you're involving the government into a situation where it does not belong
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
In no way can this guys statement be taken as advocating rape. Only a dumbass or someone who hates anyone who doesn't agree with their political views and thus will attempt to slander them in any way possible no matter how obviously contrived would say so. He is a fundamentalist. He believes that his god has a grand plan and that everything that happens, good and bad, is part of that plan (it rains on the just and unjust equally). Jon is right here. If you believe that abortion is wrong because the fetus is a person and killing it is murder then you have to be against it in all circumstances, regardless of how awful. Double down on that if you also believe in the absolute sovereignty of god as fundamentalists do. If you read this guys comments it is clearly obvious to anyone with a brain that this is where he's coming from. I don't agree with the guy, but I'm sick of you donk fucks pulling this kind of blatant half truth/twisting of words bullshit as I am of the Conklin assholes and their crap. I'd like to think nov 2nd would bring at least a reprieve, but I know it won't. I'm all in favor of good discourse, but this thread is not meant to create discourse.
Dear lord... please allow this dangerous combination of hair spary, bat slobber, and D.O.T. four automatic transmission fluid to excite my mind, occupy my spirits, and enrage my body, provoking me to kick any man or woman in the back of the head regardless of what he or she has or has not done unto me. All my Best, Earlie Cuyler.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
I will say now, as I have said in many other threads, that I am agnostic.And where on this thread did JSO say anything about religion?
This is not about religion. It's about biology. An abortion kills a member of our species. It kills a living animal.
In order to justify that you have to enforce your own opinions. You have to do something like say that the individual involved is not a "person" based on your definition of what a "person" is. You have to impose your own belief about the point at which someone else has a right to live upon another individual in order to justify killing that individual.
It's an individual animal. And it's a member of our species. It is a living Homo sapiens. Those things are not debatable. Objective reality. Stuff like saying, "It's not a person until...." is opinion. Thus the true enforcement of belief is on the part of those who seek to justify allowing elective abortion for any reason. They declare that someone else is not a "person" and can therefore be dispatched at the option of the mother.
It is not a matter of a woman deciding what to do with her body because more than her body is involved. Someone else's body is involved as well. Someone else's existence has already been established.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
No I'm not saying that at allJohnStOnge wrote:So you're saying the government does not belong in a situation where one individual is contemplating arranging a direct, fatal attack upon another individual?and double the fact that now you're involving the government into a situation where it does not belong
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
The bible. lol
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
So you're saying the right of a woman to have another individual that is her own progeny killed is self evident?No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
I've always shaken my head at the fact that this society as a matter of legality says it's OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing himself or herself; yet at the same time says it's not OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing another individual in the abortion scenario.
It's our body. But government says we can't put certain drugs into it. Government says we can't use it to have sex with others for money. But government can't say a woman can't hire someone to kill an innocent individual that is within her body but is NOT part of it.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

- Chizzang
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
So I guess we're debating the "state of personhood"..?JohnStOnge wrote:So you're saying the right of a woman to have another individual that is her own progeny killed is self evident?No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
I've always shaken my head at the fact that this society as a matter of legality says it's OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing himself or herself; yet at the same time says it's not OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing another individual in the abortion scenario.
It's our body. But government says we can't put certain drugs into it. Government says we can't use it to have sex with others for money. But government can't say a woman can't hire someone to kill an innocent individual that is within her body but is NOT part of it.
And I know your opinion because you're actually a fundamentalist christian pretending not to be
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
No. I'm saying that when you start defining "personhood" for the purpose of justifying abortion through saying that it doesn't involve killing a "person" you are imposing your own beliefs about what "personhood" is in order to justify a policy through which some living members of our species may be killed for any reason the women carrying them may have or even for no reason.So I guess we're debating the "state of personhood"..?
And I know your opinion because you're actually a fundamentalist christian pretending not to be
There are certain objective facts involved. One of them is that the point of abortion is to kill a living animal of the species Homo sapiens with an existence that has already been established. Not a part of the mother's body.
When you get into talking about the "state of personhood" you are introducing subjective opinion. And one individual should not be able to write off another individual's right to live based on the first individual's subjective opinion about what a "person" is.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
John perhaps it's a person at the point that it can survive without being attached to the mother within where it resides... how can it be a person if it can't live without being attached inside the other humanJohnStOnge wrote:No. I'm saying that when you start defining "personhood" for the purpose of justifying abortion through saying that it doesn't involve killing a "person" you are imposing your own beliefs about what "personhood" is in order to justify a policy through which some living members of our species may be killed for any reason the women carrying them may have or even for no reason.So I guess we're debating the "state of personhood"..?
And I know your opinion because you're actually a fundamentalist christian pretending not to be
There are certain objective facts involved. One of them is that the point of abortion is to kill a living animal of the species Homo sapiens with an existence that has already been established. Not a part of the mother's body.
When you get into talking about the "state of personhood" you are introducing subjective opinion. And one individual should not be able to write off another individual's right to live based on the first individual's subjective opinion about what a "person" is.
secondly:
If men were the ones getting pregnant - you'd see abortion shops at the airport
it's pretty easy for YOU to be so sanctimonious and self righteous
You've got NO perspective that actually matters
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
Two things about that:John perhaps it's a person at the point that it can survive without being attached to the mother within where it resides... how can it be a person if it can't live without being attached inside the other human
1) It's subjective. You are imposing your apparent belief that in order to be a "person" an individual must be able to survive without being attached to the mother within which it survives. So you, apparently, think the other individual may be dispatched because that individual doesn't meet your subjective definition of what a "person" is.
2) It's not a fixed definition. The point at which an individual of our species can survive without being attached to the mother depends on the state of technology. So it means that an individual we say is not a "person" now may be a "person" 20 years from now. Or an individual who was not a "person" by that criterion 100 years ago IS a "person" now.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
I've seen that line of argument before and it's bogus. My gender makes absolutely no difference to the validity of the argument. The objective reality is that a woman who has an abortion gets someone to kill her own progeny; a living individual member of our species. There are plenty of women who recognize that.f men were the ones getting pregnant - you'd see abortion shops at the airport
it's pretty easy for YOU to be so sanctimonious and self righteous
You've got NO perspective that actually matters
So if one of the women who recognize that makes the same argument, does that mean all of a sudden the validity of the argument changes because she's got "perspective that actually matters?"
Suppose I am a rich guy and there's absolutely no chance that I'll ever be poor. I read about someone who is poor and kills their children in order to take some of the financial pressure off. Are you going to say I can't say it was wrong for them to do that because I can never experience the pressure they were feeling?
Women have a role in our species biology that men don't have. It means they have problems we don't have. Tough break. That's the way it is. It doesn't mean it's right for them to kill their own progeny.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
JSO I understand your argument here, but I think you will find many pro-choicers, myself included, who think that prostitution should be legal & the drug war ended. I firmly believe the govt. should have no right to tell you what to do to your body.JohnStOnge wrote:No I'm not saying that at all
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
I've always shaken my head at the fact that this society as a matter of legality says it's OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing himself or herself; yet at the same time says it's not OK for government to get involved to stop a person from killing another individual in the abortion scenario.
It's our body. But government says we can't put certain drugs into it. Government says we can't use it to have sex with others for money. But government can't say a woman can't hire someone to kill an innocent individual that is within her body but is NOT part of it.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
It's pretty much not possible to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks like this. If you really think 89Hen is a fundamentalist and don't see how abortion is a sticky ethical quandary then what can anyone say that will convince you?Chizzang wrote: I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right
Celebrate Diversity.*
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*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
Chizzang wrote:But you're a fundamentalist 89hen, you've willfully abandon logic89Hen wrote: Not much difference. Passing through the vaginal canal is only magical for adults.
You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)
I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist
The problem is and always has been that the two sides aren't arguing the same thing. It's not whether a woman should have the choice, it's whether the new being growing inside is a person. There is a lot of conflicting legal precedent there as well. If you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with double murder. How can that be? Talk about picking and choosing.

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
Chizzang wrote:No I'm not saying that at allJohnStOnge wrote:
So you're saying the government does not belong in a situation where one individual is contemplating arranging a direct, fatal attack upon another individual?
I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
No kidding. I'm about as far away from a fundamentalist as regular church-goer can get.Pwns wrote:It's pretty much not possible to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks like this. If you really think 89Hen is a fundamentalist and don't see how abortion is a sticky ethical quandary then what can anyone say that will convince you?Chizzang wrote: I'm saying the right for a woman to have an abortion is a self evident right

Re: People actually vote for these guys.
If you had a growth inside of you that could potentially:89Hen wrote:Chizzang wrote:
But you're a fundamentalist 89hen, you've willfully abandon logic
You guys pick and choose the pieces that suite you - old testament to new - you're accepting and neglecting from the body of text in no particular order (which is completely illogical)
I debate this from the point of basic reason and logic
We're never going to see it the same way - because you're a fundamentalist
Apparently you've never read any of my posts concerning abortion. Exactly 0% of my stance on abortion comes from the bible or my religion. 100% comes from logic.
The problem is and always has been that the two sides aren't arguing the same thing. It's not whether a woman should have the choice, it's whether the new being growing inside is a person. There is a lot of conflicting legal precedent there as well. If you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with double murder. How can that be? Talk about picking and choosing.
ruin/radically change your life for at least 20 years - poverty, domestic violence
earn you the scorn of aggressive fundamentalists, perhaps members of your family
set you up for a murder charge (assuming Romney wins)
cost you your job (again, assuming Romney wins)
and just generally be a royal fucking pain in the ass
You would have a much different view.
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
And we're done.D1B wrote:If you had a growth inside of you

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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
Honestly this is one of my favorite topics... this (abortion) and God
It's about as awesome as it gets frankly
and pretty much nobody is going to change my perspective on this because I've been pondering it for most of my life and don't really think it's that complicated
First - let me get this out of the way
I do not believe killing a pregnant woman is a double murder - but I don't get to decide that - judges and lawyers do...
2) I believe life and death decision happen all the time and at the micro level inside another person's body - my opinion or feelings shouldn't be a factor - it's inside them - it's their call - it's been that way since the beginning of life itself... it's part of life and the struggle for life
3) I also humorously believe that anybody who thinks the world is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together is too stupid to actually discuss "life" and "reality" they are delusional and partially insane and I would count their ramblings about as seriously as a street person arguing with a lamp post - same - same
4) I also believe that MEN throwing themselves into the abortion argument is a level of sanctimonious babble and self righteousness so absurd - considering that we are born killers - it's what we do - it's part of how we're engineered...
My opinion is mostly - leave it up to women to decide...
and whatever they decide is the way it should be
They've done an amazing job of perpetuating our species across every corner of the globe
It's about as awesome as it gets frankly
and pretty much nobody is going to change my perspective on this because I've been pondering it for most of my life and don't really think it's that complicated
First - let me get this out of the way
I do not believe killing a pregnant woman is a double murder - but I don't get to decide that - judges and lawyers do...
2) I believe life and death decision happen all the time and at the micro level inside another person's body - my opinion or feelings shouldn't be a factor - it's inside them - it's their call - it's been that way since the beginning of life itself... it's part of life and the struggle for life
3) I also humorously believe that anybody who thinks the world is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together is too stupid to actually discuss "life" and "reality" they are delusional and partially insane and I would count their ramblings about as seriously as a street person arguing with a lamp post - same - same
4) I also believe that MEN throwing themselves into the abortion argument is a level of sanctimonious babble and self righteousness so absurd - considering that we are born killers - it's what we do - it's part of how we're engineered...
My opinion is mostly - leave it up to women to decide...
and whatever they decide is the way it should be
They've done an amazing job of perpetuating our species across every corner of the globe
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: People actually vote for these guys.
1. We disagree on that one.Chizzang wrote:Honestly this is one of my favorite topics... this (abortion) and God
It's about as awesome as it gets frankly
and pretty much nobody is going to change my perspective on this because I've been pondering it for most of my life and don't really think it's that complicated
First - let me get this out of the way
I do not believe killing a pregnant woman is a double murder - but I don't get to decide that - judges and lawyers do...
2) I believe life and death decision happen all the time and at the micro level inside another person's body - my opinion or feelings shouldn't be a factor - it's inside them - it's their call - it's been that way since the beginning of life itself... it's part of life and the struggle for life
3) I also humorously believe that anybody who thinks the world is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together is too stupid to actually discuss "life" and "reality" they are delusional and partially insane and I would count their ramblings about as seriously as a street person arguing with a lamp post - same - same
4) I also believe that MEN throwing themselves into the abortion argument is a level of sanctimonious babble and self righteousness so absurd - considering that we are born killers - it's what we do - it's part of how we're engineered...
My opinion is mostly - leave it up to women to decide...
and whatever they decide is the way it should be
They've done an amazing job of perpetuating our species across every corner of the globe
2. I honestly don't know what you mean on this one.
3. Not sure what this point has to do with you or me.
4. This cuts to the core of the disagreement. I don't believe a baby is property of a woman. You do.

