Hey Catholics...

[kalm]

is this true?

One more note about Raddatz: near the end of the debate, she asked the two Catholic candidates how their religion influences their views on abortion. This was a reasonable question unto itself, but also reflects standard DC assumptions on these issues.

It is often noted that the Catholic Church stridently opposes reproductive rights. But it is almost never noted that the Church just as stridently opposes US militarism and its economic policies that continuously promote corporate cronyism over the poor. Too much emphasis on that latter fact might imperil the bipartisan commitment to those policies, and so discussion of religious belief is typically confined to the safer arena of social issues. That the Church has for decades denounced the US government's military aggression and its subservience to the wealthiest is almost always excluded from establishment journalistic circles, even as its steadfast opposition to abortion and gay rights is endlessly touted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... bjectivity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(The rest of the article is a really good read about establishment journalism for those interested.)

[andy7171]

Save the Baby Humans!

[89Hen]

is this true?

Which part?

[kalm]

is this true?

Which part?

Yeah I should have asked whether it was true characterization of establishment media under reporting the church's stand on militarism and trickle down economics.

[89Hen]

Which part?

Yeah I should have asked whether it was true characterization of establishment media under reporting the church's stand on militarism and trickle down economics.

I don't think it is. IMO, the US church itself isn't as vocal on militarism and the wealthy as it is on abortion and the new mandated birth control issue. I think mostly because they realize a lot of their members are in the military, or have family members in the military, and they certainly have wealthy members and need their financial support. That said, the gospel this week was the camel through the eye of the needle reading.

[CAA Flagship]

Military "aggression". This is what Hitler did in Europe and North Africa. This is what Russia tried to do in Afghanistan. Etc. I think it is safe to say that we are all against that.
Is the Church against taking out the political rulers that endorse violence against others, including their own citizens? Is that the "aggression" that is carelessly thrown out there by the author?

Subservience to the wealthy? Meh. It's how the world rolls, especially for non-profit organizations. Name one that doesn't kiss ass.

[D1B]

Military "aggression". This is what Hitler did in Europe and North Africa. This is what Russia tried to do in Afghanistan. Etc. I think it is safe to say that we are all against that.
Is the Church against taking out the political rulers that endorse violence against others, including their own citizens? Is that the "aggression" that is carelessly thrown out there by the author?

Subservience to the wealthy? Meh. It's how the world rolls, especially for non-profit organizations. Name one that doesn't kiss ass.

The Catholic Church supported Hitler.

[CAA Flagship]

Military "aggression". This is what Hitler did in Europe and North Africa. This is what Russia tried to do in Afghanistan. Etc. I think it is safe to say that we are all against that.
Is the Church against taking out the political rulers that endorse violence against others, including their own citizens? Is that the "aggression" that is carelessly thrown out there by the author?

Subservience to the wealthy? Meh. It's how the world rolls, especially for non-profit organizations. Name one that doesn't kiss ass.

The Catholic Church supported Hitler.

Proof that they are not against military aggression.

[JoltinJoe]

The Catholic Church supported Hitler.

This post rates:

[D1B]

The Catholic Church supported Hitler.

Proof that they are not against military aggression.

The catholic church has a long history of supporting oppressive and violent regimes. They were one until the humanists forced them to see the light of reason.

The catholic church is not a not for profit. They have billions in assets and investments and run for profit hospitals and schools all over the world. A true not for profit invests its proceeds back into the community and the government places strict limits on its for profit ventures and investment activity.

1. The Vatican has large investments with the Rothschilds of Britain, France and America, with the Hambros Bank, with the Credit Suisse in London and Zurich. In the United States it has large investments with the Morgan Bank, the Chase-Manhattan Bank, the First National Bank of New York, the Bankers Trust Company, and others. The Vatican has billions of shares in the most powerful international corporations such as Gulf Oil, Shell, General Motors, Bethlehem Steel, General Electric, International Business Machines, T.W.A., etc. At a conservative estimate, these amount to more than 500 million dollars in the U.S.A. alone.

2. The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

3. The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars.

http://www.dailypaul.com/107469/is-the- ... -the-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GannonFan]

The Church, at least for the last 150 years, has always been nominally against military agression and has consistently talked about concern for the least able in every society. It's outreach and ministering to the poor is the greatest example of that. But the Church is not monolithic, either. Considering the size and scope of the Church, there are clearly groups that do this more than others. And as the Church is compromised entirely of people, there will always be those who fall victim to earthly temptations and end up not representing what the Church says it stands for. Humans aren't perfect and therefore it's clear the Church isn't either. But in a general sense, the Church does consistently advocate for more equality, socially and economically, for everyone.

[bluehenbillk]

Yes, to just be blunt it's true.

The militarism part is an easy answer - the church will never be mis-characterized as pro-war or supporting any aggression that would lead to war.

In terms of the wealthy or economic argument I ask any Catholic on hear to simply remember the Gospel reading from just this past Sunday. Yes, i went to Church on Sunday. Basically it said that to enter the kingdom of God a person must give their whole self to God. It is more difficult for a wealthier person to "give their whole self to God" because of the money & the possessions they have, thus it's more difficult for them to enter the kingdom of God. I won't go on pontificating at all but to answer the original question, basically yes, yes it's true.

[kalm]

The Church, at least for the last 150 years, has always been nominally against military agression and has consistently talked about concern for the least able in every society. It's outreach and ministering to the poor is the greatest example of that. But the Church is not monolithic, either. Considering the size and scope of the Church, there are clearly groups that do this more than others. And as the Church is compromised entirely of people, there will always be those who fall victim to earthly temptations and end up not representing what the Church says it stands for. Humans aren't perfect and therefore it's clear the Church isn't either. But in a general sense, the Church does consistently advocate for more equality, socially and economically, for everyone.

That was my feeling as well but as an outsider, I have to agree with Greenwald in that these two issues tend to take a back seat and that hurts the church's image.

[D1B]

The Catholic Church supported Hitler.

This post rates:

The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis, Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right. The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.

[D1B]

The Church, at least for the last 150 years, has always been nominally against military agression and has consistently talked about concern for the least able in every society. It's outreach and ministering to the poor is the greatest example of that. But the Church is not monolithic, either. Considering the size and scope of the Church, there are clearly groups that do this more than others. And as the Church is compromised entirely of people, there will always be those who fall victim to earthly temptations and end up not representing what the Church says it stands for. Humans aren't perfect and therefore it's clear the Church isn't either. But in a general sense, the Church does consistently advocate for more equality, socially and economically, for everyone.

That was my feeling as well but as an outsider, I have to agree with Greenwald in that these two issues tend to take a back seat and that hurts the church's image.

[JoltinJoe]

Yes, to just be blunt it's true.

The militarism part is an easy answer - the church will never be mis-characterized as pro-war or supporting any aggression that would lead to war.

In terms of the wealthy or economic argument I ask any Catholic on hear to simply remember the Gospel reading from just this past Sunday. Yes, i went to Church on Sunday. Basically it said that to enter the kingdom of God a person must give their whole self to God. It is more difficult for a wealthier person to "give their whole self to God" because of the money & the possessions they have, thus it's more difficult for them to enter the kingdom of God. I won't go on pontificating at all but to answer the original question, basically yes, yes it's true.

Although the final point is that while it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, all things are possible for God, i.e, man cannot enter the kingdom on his own accord, but God's mercy can save him. That is an important point that tends to get overlooked.

Jesus looked around and said to his disciples,
"How hard it is for those who have wealth
to enter the kingdom of God!"
The disciples were amazed at his words.
So Jesus again said to them in reply,
"Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves,
"Then who can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said,
"For human beings it is impossible, but not for God.
All things are possible for God."

[89Hen]

In terms of the wealthy or economic argument I ask any Catholic on hear to simply remember the Gospel reading from just this past Sunday. Yes, i went to Church on Sunday. Basically it said that to enter the kingdom of God a person must give their whole self to God. It is more difficult for a wealthier person to "give their whole self to God" because of the money & the possessions they have, thus it's more difficult for them to enter the kingdom of God. I won't go on pontificating at all but to answer the original question, basically yes, yes it's true.

That said, the gospel this week was the camel through the eye of the needle reading.

[kalm]

That was my feeling as well but as an outsider, I have to agree with Greenwald in that these two issues tend to take a back seat and that hurts the church's image.

C'mon D...time to get on the bus.



Catholic Nuns Gun for Paul Ryan
by Abigail Pesta Aug 16, 2012 4:45 AM EDT
Sister Simone Campbell, leader of the ‘Nuns on the Bus’ tour, is stepping up her campaign against Mitt Romney’s running mate, targeting his proposed budget plan. Abigail Pesta reports.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -ryan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GannonFan]

The Church, at least for the last 150 years, has always been nominally against military agression and has consistently talked about concern for the least able in every society. It's outreach and ministering to the poor is the greatest example of that. But the Church is not monolithic, either. Considering the size and scope of the Church, there are clearly groups that do this more than others. And as the Church is compromised entirely of people, there will always be those who fall victim to earthly temptations and end up not representing what the Church says it stands for. Humans aren't perfect and therefore it's clear the Church isn't either. But in a general sense, the Church does consistently advocate for more equality, socially and economically, for everyone.

That was my feeling as well but as an outsider, I have to agree with Greenwald in that these two issues tend to take a back seat and that hurts the church's image.

The Church does plenty to hurt its own image (and not even taking into account their complete fumbling of the sex abuse crisis). I understand the Church's position versus life - they are very consistent in being pro life in terms of abortion (against) and capital punishment (against) and against war in general (against). That's to their credit and I think they tend to be more consistent in that message than most people are when they discuss those topics.

However, the Church does a lot in those areas, like you said, to hurt their image. There are plenty of other life lessons that should be discussed that something like abortion shouldn't come up as often as it does. The number of times in a year where abortion is discussed from the pulpit during a homily is way overdone. For most people in that audience, there are many more things more relevant than abortion. And the Church, while it does a lot to advocate for and support people who decide not to have an abortion, they do put way too much emphasis on the persuading people not to have one. They should increase their efforts to assist people who decide not to abort and they should advertise that. Organizations like Mary's Breath exist and do great work, but even Catholics spend too much time on the persuading part and not the support part.

And frankly, I think the Church is just flat out inconsistent with their birth control position. For married couples, the Church will talk about Natural Family Planning (NFP) which, when done right, is just as effective as any birth control and is even used by people who have trouble conceiving to actually get pregnant. People confuse it with the rythymn method from long ago, but it's actually a very simple way to measure and chart body temperature and check fluids (yes, I said check fluids) and it's used often by non-Catholics so it actually works. So on one hand, the Church is perfectly fine with people selecting when and when not to get pregnant using this method, under the idea that it is still being open to potential fertilization, while they are against other methods, such as condoms, because they aren't open to potential fertilization. I've always been of the belief that if we believe that God created the universe that it is an oddity to then assume that he can't somehow defeat latex. Latex is God's kryptonite, apparently, by the Church's rationale. I don't get that.

[GannonFan]

C'mon D...time to get on the bus.



Catholic Nuns Gun for Paul Ryan
by Abigail Pesta Aug 16, 2012 4:45 AM EDT
Sister Simone Campbell, leader of the ‘Nuns on the Bus’ tour, is stepping up her campaign against Mitt Romney’s running mate, targeting his proposed budget plan. Abigail Pesta reports.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -ryan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind of along the same lines, I went to Mass on Easter to the chapterhouse of the Medical Mission Sisters - very nice Catholic organization that helps to bring medical care and expertise to the most poor anywhere in the world. Along with this, they are incredibly pro-enivornment. They had a whole homily on the evils of fracking and the impact to the environment. I didn't necessarily agree with them, but it was an interesting look into how non-monolythic the Church can be, as one would ultimately expect such a large organization would be.

[D1B]

Yes, to just be blunt it's true.

The militarism part is an easy answer - the church will never be mis-characterized as pro-war or supporting any aggression that would lead to war.

In terms of the wealthy or economic argument I ask any Catholic on hear to simply remember the Gospel reading from just this past Sunday. Yes, i went to Church on Sunday. Basically it said that to enter the kingdom of God a person must give their whole self to God. It is more difficult for a wealthier person to "give their whole self to God" because of the money & the possessions they have, thus it's more difficult for them to enter the kingdom of God. I won't go on pontificating at all but to answer the original question, basically yes, yes it's true.

Although the final point is that while it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, all things are possible for God, i.e, man cannot enter the kingdom on his own accord, but God's mercy can save him. That is an important point that tends to get overlooked.

Jesus looked around and said to his disciples,
"How hard it is for those who have wealth
to enter the kingdom of God!"
The disciples were amazed at his words.
So Jesus again said to them in reply,
"Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves,
"Then who can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said,
"For human beings it is impossible, but not for God.
All things are possible for God."

Nice fairy tale. You think Murphy or you will be saved?

[89Hen]

The number of times in a year where abortion is discussed from the pulpit during a homily is way overdone. For most people in that audience, there are many more things more relevant than abortion.

I disagree. First, I don't hear it that often at my church, but even if I did, I can't think of a more important issue. It's right up there with any kind of outreach.

[CAA Flagship]

The number of times in a year where abortion is discussed from the pulpit during a homily is way overdone. For most people in that audience, there are many more things more relevant than abortion.

I disagree. First, I don't hear it that often at my church, but even if I did, I can't think of a more important issue. It's right up there with any kind of outreach.

I'm with GF on this. The decision to have an abortion or not is far less frequent for Churchgoers than other events that are concerns for the Church. Outreach is a good example. On the other side of the coin, aldultery is another example.

[89Hen]

I disagree. First, I don't hear it that often at my church, but even if I did, I can't think of a more important issue. It's right up there with any kind of outreach.

I'm with GF on this. The decision to have an abortion or not is far less frequent for Churchgoers than other events that are concerns for the Church. Outreach is a good example. On the other side of the coin, aldultery is another example.

Ah, you're looking at it like "preaching to the choir". I'm thinking of getting people involved in spreading the word. IMO we can't get enough of that.

[Grizalltheway]

You guys ever considered becoming Methodists?