HBO Doc detail abuse of deaf boys by catholic church

[D1B]

Yeah those first couple of centuries were the salad days of Christianity. Living high on the hog, they were!

It wasn't as bad as the catholic-funded historians/editors/storytellers made it out to be.

"Christianity" was a paganized mess just like many other "religions" in the area at the time.

The claim of persecution is vital for every religion. They still do it today:

Ratcheting Up the Religious Persecution Rhetoric

The next day, Sen. Jim DeMint told CBN's David Brody that "Democrats are looking for every opportunity to purge faith and prayer from the public square." Did DeMint miss the inauguration?

Fox News also chimed in on Wednesday, with a story that covered the bases: The headline announced that "Conservative Groups Declare Obama's Stimulus Bill a War on Prayer," while the opening line of the story attributed the "war on prayer" to "Democrats in Congress."

Also jumping into the fray were the Traditional Values Coalition, the Liberty Counsel, and the Family Research Council.

"Religious activity is already scarce at most of our colleges, the Obama people want to make sure it is extinct," complained the TVC's Andrea Lafferty. Which "Obama people" she has in mind is not clear, but purging religion from college campuses does not seem a likely priority for Joshua DuBois, the former pastor named to oversee White House faith outreach.

The Liberty Counsel's Mathew Staver took the claim even further, saying that the provision "will lead to the banning of all religious activity from all public facilities" and snarking that "Apparently, President Obama's idea of faith-based initiatives is to remove faith from all initiatives."

And the Family Research Council's Tony Perkins, reportedly considering a run for the U.S. Senate, called for "Hammering Out Dems' Anti-Faith Building Provision," which he said would encourage colleges and universities to discourage religious activity on campus out of fear of losing out on federal dollars.

PFAW.com

[89Hen]

The claim of persecution

Is alive and well here.

[CID1990]

I don't know about God. Never met him.

But I think Jesus was a man, and a pretty revolutionary one at that. If you think about it, Jesus was anti-religion, in terms of cookie cutter dogma.

First, there are no first hand accounts or eyewitnesses of "Jesus." All anyone knows about him was written by people, decades to centuries after his supposed existence. The bible is primarily myth.

Second, he said and did nothing original. Nothing. There are several "Jesuses", with an identical story who predated the christian version. The chinese and other eastern religions, philosophically and ethically, were way ahead of Jesus,several milleniums before him..

Christianity would have died out, like thousands of other myths, if Constantine did not allow it as a religion of the holy roman empire.

Accept Jesus as your savior or spend eternity in hell worked out great for tyrants for 1700 years. Also held us back as a species. **** jesus.

Of course, but it is widely accepted that Jesus the man existed. Some of the more ancient texts associated with thing he supposedly said paint a picture of a pretty admirable feller.

I'm not getting into what the Church did to Jesus and his legacy. There are libraries full of that. I do understand the relationship between the Eastern Roman Empire and its effect on the religion, and Christianity was certainly shaped by it (and we're talking about the Catholic Church here).

BUT- it wasn't Constantine that brought the church to Western Europe. It was Clovis, and later Charlemagne who firmly lodged it (in some pretty bloodthirsty ways) in the European psyche. You could even say that the first seeds if Protestantism were sown by Charlemagne. All if this of course is as much a political history as it is a religious one, and I think Jesus the man was fairly well buried under it all.

I don't subscribe to all the dogma, heck I'm not really all that religious. Agnostic best describes me. But I see a lot to admire in some of the historians' perspective of Jesus. Hell, D, if half of it is true then he was pretty much a free love tree hugger.

You are right about the fate of Christianity though- if the Romans and the Franks had not militarized it, Christians would be a very small group, if not extinct. Ironic that the abuses of the Dark Ages church perpetuated things long enough so that we have the ability to at least try to peel back the layers and look at the man as he was, as best as we can.

[D1B]

First, there are no first hand accounts or eyewitnesses of "Jesus." All anyone knows about him was written by people, decades to centuries after his supposed existence. The bible is primarily myth.

Second, he said and did nothing original. Nothing. There are several "Jesuses", with an identical story who predated the christian version. The chinese and other eastern religions, philosophically and ethically, were way ahead of Jesus,several milleniums before him..

Christianity would have died out, like thousands of other myths, if Constantine did not allow it as a religion of the holy roman empire.

Accept Jesus as your savior or spend eternity in hell worked out great for tyrants for 1700 years. Also held us back as a species. **** jesus.

Of course, but it is widely accepted that Jesus the man existed. Some of the more ancient texts associated with thing he supposedly said paint a picture of a pretty admirable feller.

I'm not getting into what the Church did to Jesus and his legacy. There are libraries full of that. I do understand the relationship between the Eastern Roman Empire and its effect on the religion, and Christianity was certainly shaped by it (and we're talking about the Catholic Church here).

BUT- it wasn't Constantine that brought the church to Western Europe. It was Clovis, and later Charlemagne who firmly lodged it (in some pretty bloodthirsty ways) in the European psyche. You could even say that the first seeds if Protestantism were sown by Charlemagne. All if this of course is as much a political history as it is a religious one, and I think Jesus the man was fairly well buried under it all.

I don't subscribe to all the dogma, heck I'm not really all that religious. Agnostic best describes me. But I see a lot to admire in some of the historians' perspective of Jesus. Hell, D, if half of it is true then he was pretty much a free love tree hugger.

You are right about the fate of Christianity though- if the Romans and the Franks had not militarized it, Christians would be a very small group, if not extinct. Ironic that the abuses of the Dark Ages church perpetuated things long enough so that we have the ability to at least try to peel back the layers and look at the man as he was, as best as we can.

Seriously, what is there to admire? The salvation hammer put and kept people in chains and poverty for 1700 years, destroyed indigenous cultures all over the word and started many wars - still does.


The meek shall inherit the earth shit was a calculated ruse to keep fucked over people happy about being fucked. It's also antithetical to your political and personal ideology.

Christ was a fabricated hero used by tyrants to oppress people.

[CID1990]

Of course, but it is widely accepted that Jesus the man existed. Some of the more ancient texts associated with thing he supposedly said paint a picture of a pretty admirable feller.

I'm not getting into what the Church did to Jesus and his legacy. There are libraries full of that. I do understand the relationship between the Eastern Roman Empire and its effect on the religion, and Christianity was certainly shaped by it (and we're talking about the Catholic Church here).

BUT- it wasn't Constantine that brought the church to Western Europe. It was Clovis, and later Charlemagne who firmly lodged it (in some pretty bloodthirsty ways) in the European psyche. You could even say that the first seeds if Protestantism were sown by Charlemagne. All if this of course is as much a political history as it is a religious one, and I think Jesus the man was fairly well buried under it all.

I don't subscribe to all the dogma, heck I'm not really all that religious. Agnostic best describes me. But I see a lot to admire in some of the historians' perspective of Jesus. Hell, D, if half of it is true then he was pretty much a free love tree hugger.

You are right about the fate of Christianity though- if the Romans and the Franks had not militarized it, Christians would be a very small group, if not extinct. Ironic that the abuses of the Dark Ages church perpetuated things long enough so that we have the ability to at least try to peel back the layers and look at the man as he was, as best as we can.

Seriously, what is there to admire? The salvation hammer put and kept people in chains and poverty for 1700 years, destroyed indigenous cultures all over the word and started many wars - still does.


The meek shall inherit the earth **** was a calculated ruse to keep **** over people happy about being ****. It's also antithetical to your political and personal ideology.

Christ was a fabricated hero used by tyrants to oppress people.

What you are describing is the manipulation of the religion. I am talking about the guy. I think it is right to be indignant about the things that have been done in his name in the centuries since his death, but I am talking about the man himself- a lot of what has been attributed to him actually flies in the face of the dogma we see today.

And- even if Jesus is a total invention (and someone was certainly crucified by Pontius Pilate in Jerusalem) there are some very basic, admirable things that have been attributed to him. I don't see him as the son of God, but as a guy, a philosopher who had a blueprint... one that suggests a different, better way of looking at your fellow man.

[D1B]

Seriously, what is there to admire? The salvation hammer put and kept people in chains and poverty for 1700 years, destroyed indigenous cultures all over the word and started many wars - still does.


The meek shall inherit the earth **** was a calculated ruse to keep **** over people happy about being ****. It's also antithetical to your political and personal ideology.

Christ was a fabricated hero used by tyrants to oppress people.

What you are describing is the manipulation of the religion. I am talking about the guy. I think it is right to be indignant about the things that have been done in his name in the centuries since his death, but I am talking about the man himself- a lot of what has been attributed to him actually flies in the face of the dogma we see today.

And- even if Jesus is a total invention (and someone was certainly crucified by Pontius Pilate in Jerusalem) there are some very basic, admirable things that have been attributed to him. I don't see him as the son of God, but as a guy, a philosopher who had a blueprint... one that suggests a different, better way of looking at your fellow man.

Great, but it was far from original. 99.9% of the shit attributed to him is total crap. Thomas Jefferson is 100,000,000 more important and did more for humanity than the mythical Christ.

[CID1990]

What you are describing is the manipulation of the religion. I am talking about the guy. I think it is right to be indignant about the things that have been done in his name in the centuries since his death, but I am talking about the man himself- a lot of what has been attributed to him actually flies in the face of the dogma we see today.

And- even if Jesus is a total invention (and someone was certainly crucified by Pontius Pilate in Jerusalem) there are some very basic, admirable things that have been attributed to him. I don't see him as the son of God, but as a guy, a philosopher who had a blueprint... one that suggests a different, better way of looking at your fellow man.

Great, but it was far from original. 99.9% of the **** attributed to him is total crap. Thomas Jefferson is 100,000,000 more important and did more for humanity than the mythical Christ.

I know. I'm not saying that everything attributed to him is factual. In fact, I would wager that there are exactly 0 things attributed to him that are accurate word for word. What I am saying is that some of the historical record paints a picture of a revolutionary; a heretic against the dogma of the old Jewish church and the pantheon of Rome. Whatever he was claimed to be, he was certainly a man who challenged the religious status quo of the day, suggesting a more personalized spiritualism. He was threatening enough that it got him killed.

[89Hen]

Thomas Jefferson is 100,000,000 more important and did more for humanity than the mythical Christ.

What was so original about TJ?

[kalm]

Great, but it was far from original. 99.9% of the **** attributed to him is total crap. Thomas Jefferson is 100,000,000 more important and did more for humanity than the mythical Christ.

I know. I'm not saying that everything attributed to him is factual. In fact, I would wager that there are exactly 0 things attributed to him that are accurate word for word. What I am saying is that some of the historical record paints a picture of a revolutionary; a heretic against the dogma of the old Jewish church and the pantheon of Rome. Whatever he was claimed to be, he was certainly a man who challenged the religious status quo of the day, suggesting a more personalized spiritualism. He was threatening enough that it got him killed.

Some strong work by Cid in this thread.

[D1B]

Great, but it was far from original. 99.9% of the **** attributed to him is total crap. Thomas Jefferson is 100,000,000 more important and did more for humanity than the mythical Christ.

I know. I'm not saying that everything attributed to him is factual. In fact, I would wager that there are exactly 0 things attributed to him that are accurate word for word. What I am saying is that some of the historical record paints a picture of a revolutionary; a heretic against the dogma of the old Jewish church and the pantheon of Rome. Whatever he was claimed to be, he was certainly a man who challenged the religious status quo of the day, suggesting a more personalized spiritualism. He was threatening enough that it got him killed.

I should have been more clear. What I meant by "crap", was his message/philosophy, regardless of the source. I too used to subscribe to the "religion got Joltinized, but Jesus, as presented by his fabricators, was a great man". Now, I think he was just a dumb, maniacal rabbi speaking to an illiterate bronze age audience. Heretics like him were a dime a dozen.

Take no thought for tomorrow, just trust god?
The meek shall inherit the earth?
Turn a blind eye to injustice?
Obey your father or perish?
God will grant your prayers?
Believe what I say and follow me or go to hell?

Nothing but a snake oil salesman. All the above contributed to massive suffering, stunted intelligence, war and injustice - which was and still is the ultimate legacy of this "philosopher."

[andy7171]

Thomas Jefferson is 100,000,000 more important and did more for humanity than the mythical Christ.

What was so original about TJ?

He screwed the help.

[kalm]

What was so original about TJ?

He screwed the help.

And grew weed. But he did plagiarize Jesus.

[D1B]

He screwed the help.

And grew weed. But he did plagiarize Jesus.

Which one of these gems did he steal?:

If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off (Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context).
Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32)
Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34)
Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20)
Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25)
Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33)
Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27)
Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28)
Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11)
Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16)
Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26)
If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30)
If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41)
If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42)

[andy7171]

D1B paid attention to the sermon on the mount!

[D1B]

D1B paid attention to the sermon on the mount!

Maybe Jefferson borrowed Jesus' views on slavery, specifically that it's OK to have and beat em:

"And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47)

[89Hen]

What was so original about TJ?

[CID1990]

I know. I'm not saying that everything attributed to him is factual. In fact, I would wager that there are exactly 0 things attributed to him that are accurate word for word. What I am saying is that some of the historical record paints a picture of a revolutionary; a heretic against the dogma of the old Jewish church and the pantheon of Rome. Whatever he was claimed to be, he was certainly a man who challenged the religious status quo of the day, suggesting a more personalized spiritualism. He was threatening enough that it got him killed.

I should have been more clear. What I meant by "crap", was his message/philosophy, regardless of the source. I too used to subscribe to the "religion got Joltinized, but Jesus, as presented by his fabricators, was a great man". Now, I think he was just a dumb, maniacal rabbi speaking to an illiterate bronze age audience. Heretics like him were a dime a dozen.

Take no thought for tomorrow, just trust god?
The meek shall inherit the earth?
Turn a blind eye to injustice?
Obey your father or perish?
God will grant your prayers?
Believe what I say and follow me or go to hell?

Nothing but a snake oil salesman. All the above contributed to massive suffering, stunted intelligence, war and injustice - which was and still is the ultimate legacy of this "philosopher."

Ok, and which if these did the real Jesus say? As you said, most of what we have in the man is repeated by people who had an interest in molding and shaping the religion.

The New Testament was written by men with not only their own takes on the man, but also with their own agendas. They were also products of their time.

As much as he was a man, he also represented an idea, and that's what I'm on about. Jesus wasn't the only one, either.

[D1B]

I should have been more clear. What I meant by "crap", was his message/philosophy, regardless of the source. I too used to subscribe to the "religion got Joltinized, but Jesus, as presented by his fabricators, was a great man". Now, I think he was just a dumb, maniacal rabbi speaking to an illiterate bronze age audience. Heretics like him were a dime a dozen.

Take no thought for tomorrow, just trust god?
The meek shall inherit the earth?
Turn a blind eye to injustice?
Obey your father or perish?
God will grant your prayers?
Believe what I say and follow me or go to hell?

Nothing but a snake oil salesman. All the above contributed to massive suffering, stunted intelligence, war and injustice - which was and still is the ultimate legacy of this "philosopher."

Ok, and which if these did the real Jesus say? As you said, most of what we have in the man is repeated by people who had an interest in molding and shaping the religion.

The New Testament was written by men with not only their own takes on the man, but also with their own agendas. They were also products of their time.

As much as he was a man, he also represented an idea, and that's what I'm on about. Jesus wasn't the only one, either.

Fair enough.

[D1B]

What was so original about TJ?

I'm not sure, Hen. Of course, I never said his thoughts were.

His primary achievement was incorporating some of the political philosopy of the Enlightenment into an actual government. I especially appreciate his important thoughts on separation of church and state.

The Preamble to DOI is light years better and more important for humanity than anything in the bible.

IMO, Jefferson and Martin Luther King, Jr. will still be revered in 1000 years, while Jesus of Nazareth will join a long list of silly characters of mythology.

[Gil Dobie]

I should have been more clear. What I meant by "crap", was his message/philosophy, regardless of the source. I too used to subscribe to the "religion got Joltinized, but Jesus, as presented by his fabricators, was a great man". Now, I think he was just a dumb, maniacal rabbi speaking to an illiterate bronze age audience. Heretics like him were a dime a dozen.

Take no thought for tomorrow, just trust god?
The meek shall inherit the earth?
Turn a blind eye to injustice?
Obey your father or perish?
God will grant your prayers?
Believe what I say and follow me or go to hell?

Nothing but a snake oil salesman. All the above contributed to massive suffering, stunted intelligence, war and injustice - which was and still is the ultimate legacy of this "philosopher."

Ok, and which if these did the real Jesus say? As you said, most of what we have in the man is repeated by people who had an interest in molding and shaping the religion.

The New Testament was written by men with not only their own takes on the man, but also with their own agendas. They were also products of their time.

As much as he was a man, he also represented an idea, and that's what I'm on about. Jesus wasn't the only one, either.

None of those quotes are in my Bible.

[D1B]

Ok, and which if these did the real Jesus say? As you said, most of what we have in the man is repeated by people who had an interest in molding and shaping the religion.

The New Testament was written by men with not only their own takes on the man, but also with their own agendas. They were also products of their time.

As much as he was a man, he also represented an idea, and that's what I'm on about. Jesus wasn't the only one, either.

None of those quotes are in my Bible.

They aint quotes, Fuck Head. If they were, they'd look like this:

"Gil is an ass hat." Luke 4:12

[BisonMav]

None of those quotes are in my Bible.

They aint quotes, **** Head. If they were, they'd look like this:

"Gil is an ass hat." Luke 4:12

You are a nice fella or gal, whichever.

[D1B]

They aint quotes, **** Head. If they were, they'd look like this:

"Gil is an ass hat." Luke 4:12

You are a nice fella or gal, whichever.

I'm insane.

[Cap'n Cat]

None of those quotes are in my Bible.

They aint quotes, Fuck Head. If they were, they'd look like this:

"Gil is an ass hat." Luke 4:12

[Cap'n Cat]

You are a nice fella or gal, whichever.

I'm insane.

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!