Preemptive Strike: Why Romney Lost

[YoUDeeMan]

You need to read a little closer, Cuck, the group in question is Hispanic citizens.


Poor thing. Must be dealing with that not-so-fresh feeling again.

Now go back and try again, this time remember we're talking about Hispanic citizens. smfh

Why don't you go back and read what I posted...try reading with your head out of your rear and you might actually begin to understand things without that layer of crap blocking your view.

If you want me to explain it to you, I will...but, really, you're embarrassing yourself with the post above.

Free your mind.

[SDHornet]

What you fail to realize is businesses hiring illegal labor >>> voting Hispanics wrt voting. Business owners that hire illegal labor have a lot more money to throw around in the elections vs voting Hispanics. You lose...again. The Hispanic voeter block is up for grabs during any election. Offer up a legitimate solution to the immigration issue and that voter block can be wooed. Romney and the repubs had a chance to capitalize on this, and they failed to do so, again. I appreciate your effort to spin it another way though. Effort failed.

Business owners having more money to throw around in elections than voting Hispanics do has nothing to do with what I said. If the majority of voting Hispanics had their way, every Mexican who is in the United States illegally who does not have a criminal record beyond just being here illegally would be allowed to stay here. Furthermore, they are opposed to efforts to keep them from getting here to begin with.

What do you think a "legitimate solution" is? Is it rewarding a bunch of people who came into the United States illegally with citizenship?

The Hispanic vote is not up for grabs unless you throw integrity to the wind.

It's the Republican way, see Reagan.

[YoUDeeMan]

What do you think a "legitimate solution" is? Is it rewarding a bunch of people who came into the United States illegally with citizenship?

It's the Republican way, see Reagan.

SD, you didn't answer either question.

[SDHornet]

It's the Republican way, see Reagan.

SD, you didn't answer either question.

Sure I did, see Reagan's example.

Actually the solution is to allow the pursuit of citizenship while they are working (basically like a VISA). The demand for cheap labor will never go away, and there are lots of jobs that Americans will not do (Agribusiness) so the system needs to be improved/expanded to accommodate those who are willing to work and be productive members of society on their way to citizenship. This coupled with stiff penalties for businesses who hire illegal labor is a start. Yes this would require a lot of oversight, and yes it isn't easy but any solution will require a lot of resources and effort (which is why the solution to this problem has been ignored continuously by everyone). By doing this, the Fed can know who is here working, where they are working at, who is employing them, and who they are letting through the gates(background checks with the immigrants country of origin could weed out the criminals, not perfect but it better than letting anyone come over now). I'm also ok with charging business a fee for use of immigrant labor. This does 2 things, 1) it encourages the businesses to employ US citizens, and 2) it would cover some of the costs of running such a massive Fed program. Also since these immigrants will be here working legally, they will be paying income tax netting the Fed even more revenue.

As to question 2, this isn't rewarding those who come here illegally, its rewarding those who want to work to support their family and be a productive member of society. The tricky part is what to do with those illegal immigrants already here. Obviously anyone with a criminal record needs to get the boot. No arguments from me on that. Now as to those already here illegally who have been working and being a productive member of society, you place them in the newly expanded system allowing them to legally work in the US, charge them a fee or fine (after all it's the American way) and let them continue on their way with a path to citizenship. Is it perfect, no. Will people scream bloody murder? Of course, but it is a way around that dirty "amnesty" word repubs get so worked up about.

[YoUDeeMan]

SD, you didn't answer either question.

Sure I did, see Reagan's example.

Actually the solution is to allow the pursuit of citizenship while they are working (basically like a VISA). The demand for cheap labor will never go away, and there are lots of jobs that Americans will not do (Agribusiness) so the system needs to be improved/expanded to accommodate those who are willing to work and be productive members of society on their way to citizenship. This coupled with stiff penalties for businesses who hire illegal labor is a start. Yes this would require a lot of oversight, and yes it isn't easy but any solution will require a lot of resources and effort (which is why the solution to this problem has been ignored continuously by everyone). By doing this, the Fed can know who is here working, where they are working at, who is employing them, and who they are letting through the gates(background checks with the immigrants country of origin could weed out the criminals, not perfect but it better than letting anyone come over now). I'm also ok with charging business a fee for use of immigrant labor. This does 2 things, 1) it encourages the businesses to employ US citizens, and 2) it would cover some of the costs of running such a massive Fed program. Also since these immigrants will be here working legally, they will be paying income tax netting the Fed even more revenue.

As to question 2, this isn't rewarding those who come here illegally, its rewarding those who want to work to support their family and be a productive member of society. The tricky part is what to do with those illegal immigrants already here. Obviously anyone with a criminal record needs to get the boot. No arguments from me on that. Now as to those already here illegally who have been working and being a productive member of society, you place them in the newly expanded system allowing them to legally work in the US, charge them a fee or fine (after all it's the American way) and let them continue on their way with a path to citizenship. Is it perfect, no. Will people scream bloody murder? Of course, but it is a way around that dirty "amnesty" word repubs get so worked up about.

So, yes, you are willing to reward those who came here illegally...and you are willing to displace American laborers in favor of hiring a cheaper labor force.

[AZGrizFan]

Sure I did, see Reagan's example.

Actually the solution is to allow the pursuit of citizenship while they are working (basically like a VISA). The demand for cheap labor will never go away, and there are lots of jobs that Americans will not do (Agribusiness) so the system needs to be improved/expanded to accommodate those who are willing to work and be productive members of society on their way to citizenship. This coupled with stiff penalties for businesses who hire illegal labor is a start. Yes this would require a lot of oversight, and yes it isn't easy but any solution will require a lot of resources and effort (which is why the solution to this problem has been ignored continuously by everyone). By doing this, the Fed can know who is here working, where they are working at, who is employing them, and who they are letting through the gates(background checks with the immigrants country of origin could weed out the criminals, not perfect but it better than letting anyone come over now). I'm also ok with charging business a fee for use of immigrant labor. This does 2 things, 1) it encourages the businesses to employ US citizens, and 2) it would cover some of the costs of running such a massive Fed program. Also since these immigrants will be here working legally, they will be paying income tax netting the Fed even more revenue.

As to question 2, this isn't rewarding those who come here illegally, its rewarding those who want to work to support their family and be a productive member of society. The tricky part is what to do with those illegal immigrants already here. Obviously anyone with a criminal record needs to get the boot. No arguments from me on that. Now as to those already here illegally who have been working and being a productive member of society, you place them in the newly expanded system allowing them to legally work in the US, charge them a fee or fine (after all it's the American way) and let them continue on their way with a path to citizenship. Is it perfect, no. Will people scream bloody murder? Of course, but it is a way around that dirty "amnesty" word repubs get so worked up about.

So, yes, you are willing to reward those who came here illegally...and you are willing to displace American laborers in favor of hiring a cheaper labor force.

As long as that cheap labor force is HERE, sucking up scant American resources, and not located in China, India, Bangladesh, South Korea or Viet Nam.

[SDHornet]

So, yes, you are willing to reward those who came here illegally...and you are willing to displace American laborers in favor of hiring a cheaper labor force.

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this. Cut off the flow of cheap labor and our economy tanks. The solution is to allow access to that cheap labor in a controlled manner if citizens are too lazy or unwilling to fill those labor needs. It won't happen which is why this issue will never get fixed.

[ODUsmitty]

Bullshit. If you cut off the social safety nets of those that are too lazy or unmotivated to support their own existance, and they refuse to adapt, then FUCK them. They can wallow in their own filth.

I never signed up to support able-bodied individual that feel entitled enough to refuse labor in support of their existence. They can either adapt or not, and I could not care less. Social evolution at its finest.

A stray cat will visit your porch daily if you continue to feed it. It you do not, it will learn to sustain itself or perish. So be it.

[SDHornet]

Bullshit. If you cut off the social safety nets of those that are too lazy or unmotivated to support their own existance, then FUCK them. They can wallow in their own filth.

I never signed up to support able-bodied individual that feel entitled enough to refuse labor in support of their existence. They can either adapt or not, and I could not care less. Social evolution at its finest.

A stray cat will visit your porch daily if you continue to feed it. It you do not, it will learn to sustain itself or perish. So be it.

No disagreements here, unfortunately cutting welfare and entitlements ain't gonna happen regardless of who takes the Casa Blanco.

[AZGrizFan]

So, yes, you are willing to reward those who came here illegally...and you are willing to displace American laborers in favor of hiring a cheaper labor force.

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this. Cut off the flow of cheap labor and our economy tanks. The solution is to allow access to that cheap labor in a controlled manner if citizens are too lazy or unwilling to fill those labor needs. It won't happen which is why this issue will never get fixed.

Dude. Seriously? You're using your experience in California to base these opinions on? My best friend's son is a dishwasher at an Italian restaurant. He's Irish. In Arizona. You can hardly use CA/NV/AZ/NM/TX as a marker for who's doing the dishwashing, landscaping, cooking, etc. Sure, there might be a lot of Mexicans doing those jobs, but it sure ain't ALL....there's a lot of Philipinos too.

[SDHornet]

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this. Cut off the flow of cheap labor and our economy tanks. The solution is to allow access to that cheap labor in a controlled manner if citizens are too lazy or unwilling to fill those labor needs. It won't happen which is why this issue will never get fixed.

Dude. Seriously? You're using your experience in California to base these opinions on? My best friend's son is a dishwasher at an Italian restaurant. He's Irish. In Arizona. You can hardly use CA/NV/AZ/NM/TX as a marker for who's doing the dishwashing, landscaping, cooking, etc. Sure, there might be a lot of Mexicans doing those jobs, but it sure ain't ALL....there's a lot of Philipinos too.

Tell me where I said "all" of the labor was illegal.

[AZGrizFan]

Dude. Seriously? You're using your experience in California to base these opinions on? My best friend's son is a dishwasher at an Italian restaurant. He's Irish. In Arizona. You can hardly use CA/NV/AZ/NM/TX as a marker for who's doing the dishwashing, landscaping, cooking, etc. Sure, there might be a lot of Mexicans doing those jobs, but it sure ain't ALL....there's a lot of Philipinos too.

Tell me where I said "all" of the labor was illegal.

OK. Mostly.

[JohnStOnge]

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used.

Here is the thing: If the illegal alien labor were not available the pay level of those who work in agribusiness would e set by supply of legal workers vs. demand. The agricultural industry would have to pay enough for the jobs it offers in order to get people willing to do the jobs.

If no illegal aliens were available farmers would offer enough in salary to entice people to take the jobs to harvest their crops. It's as simple as that. And all farmers would be on the same playing field. It would not be a situation in which the crops would just be unharvested. At some point the compensation would be enough to get people to do it.

And yes that would mean food would cost more. But on balance I would prefer that.

[kalm]

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used.

Here is the thing: If the illegal alien labor were not available the pay level of those who work in agribusiness would e set by supply of legal workers vs. demand. The agricultural industry would have to pay enough for the jobs it offers in order to get people willing to do the jobs.

If no illegal aliens were available farmers would offer enough in salary to entice people to take the jobs to harvest their crops. It's as simple as that. And all farmers would be on the same playing field. It would not be a situation in which the crops would just be unharvested. At some point the compensation would be enough to get people to do it.

And yes that would mean food would cost more. But on balance I would prefer that.

Great God almighty, you and I agree on something.

[YoUDeeMan]

So, yes, you are willing to reward those who came here illegally...and you are willing to displace American laborers in favor of hiring a cheaper labor force.

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this. Cut off the flow of cheap labor and our economy tanks. The solution is to allow access to that cheap labor in a controlled manner if citizens are too lazy or unwilling to fill those labor needs. It won't happen which is why this issue will never get fixed.

Again, as JSO said, Hispanics want to facilitate illegal immigration. You really aren't fooling anyone.

BTW, do you really think that all of the landscaping, janitorial, cook, and dishwasher positions are taken by Hispanics? Plenty of people around here are working those jobs...and guess what? They aren't Hispanic.

And, as others have said, all one has to do is riase the wage or get people off the government tit and the crops would be picked.

Your excuses are not hiding your agenda, or your ignorance, very well.

[AZGrizFan]

Here is the thing: If the illegal alien labor were not available the pay level of those who work in agribusiness would e set by supply of legal workers vs. demand. The agricultural industry would have to pay enough for the jobs it offers in order to get people willing to do the jobs.

If no illegal aliens were available farmers would offer enough in salary to entice people to take the jobs to harvest their crops. It's as simple as that. And all farmers would be on the same playing field. It would not be a situation in which the crops would just be unharvested. At some point the compensation would be enough to get people to do it.

And yes that would mean food would cost more. But on balance I would prefer that.

Great God almighty, you and I agree on something.

That's fuckin' scary, ain't it?

[AZGrizFan]

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this. Cut off the flow of cheap labor and our economy tanks. The solution is to allow access to that cheap labor in a controlled manner if citizens are too lazy or unwilling to fill those labor needs. It won't happen which is why this issue will never get fixed.

Again, as JSO said, Hispanics want to facilitate illegal immigration. You really aren't fooling anyone.

BTW, do you really think that all of the landscaping, janitorial, cook, and dishwasher positions are taken by Hispanics? Plenty of people around here are working those jobs...and guess what? They aren't Hispanic.

That was kind of my point to SD....but he focused on one word of my comment instead and avoided the larger issue.

[SDHornet]

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this. Cut off the flow of cheap labor and our economy tanks. The solution is to allow access to that cheap labor in a controlled manner if citizens are too lazy or unwilling to fill those labor needs. It won't happen which is why this issue will never get fixed.

Again, as JSO said, Hispanics want to facilitate illegal immigration. You really aren't fooling anyone.

BTW, do you really think that all of the landscaping, janitorial, cook, and dishwasher positions are taken by Hispanics? Plenty of people around here are working those jobs...and guess what? They aren't Hispanic.

And, as others have said, all one has to do is riase the wage or get people off the government tit and the crops would be picked.

Your excuses are not hiding your agenda, or your ignorance, very well.

Businesses that hire illegal labor are facilitating illegal immigration. Significantly penalize the companies that do that and illegal immigration would see a drastic reduction as the demand for illegal labor would decrease.

Again I never said "all", and yes I do believe a lot of these jobs found in urban areas would be filled with legal labor if welfare and other "safety nets" were scaled back. However lets not kid ourselves, those agribusiness jobs ain't getting filled by people laid off from their air conditioned, cushy 9-5 job that was in some cookie cutter office building in suburbia hell. As much as you want to turn this into a cut and dry issue, it ain't which is exactly why nothing will get done to fix this issue no matter how badly people harp about it on both sides of the aisle because the fact of the matter is those agribusinesses depend on that cheap illegal labor (as well as other industries). These aren't excuses, just the way it has been for many decades now but go ahead and spin it however you need to fit your agenda.

[SDHornet]

Again, as JSO said, Hispanics want to facilitate illegal immigration. You really aren't fooling anyone.

BTW, do you really think that all of the landscaping, janitorial, cook, and dishwasher positions are taken by Hispanics? Plenty of people around here are working those jobs...and guess what? They aren't Hispanic.

That was kind of my point to SD....but he focused on one word of my comment instead and avoided the larger issue.

That whole post was centered around assuming that I was indicating that those industries solely used illegal labor; and I pointed out that was not what I stated.

[SDHornet]

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used.

Here is the thing: If the illegal alien labor were not available the pay level of those who work in agribusiness would e set by supply of legal workers vs. demand. The agricultural industry would have to pay enough for the jobs it offers in order to get people willing to do the jobs.

If no illegal aliens were available farmers would offer enough in salary to entice people to take the jobs to harvest their crops. It's as simple as that. And all farmers would be on the same playing field. It would not be a situation in which the crops would just be unharvested. At some point the compensation would be enough to get people to do it.

And yes that would mean food would cost more. But on balance I would prefer that.

Yup, and that significant raise in labor costs most likely puts a lot of farmers out of business. Assuming a lot of farmers stayed in business, the product would be significantly more expensive (higher labor costs and less supply) which would probably be offset by increased subsidies to agribusiness from the Fed which in turn would add to the deficit. Or more food would just be imported from South America and elsewhere as that would be more cost effective than growing our own food. Either way you slice it the agribusiness industry suffers if the cheap labor supply is cut off. Me thinks their lobby wouldn't allow that to happen.

[AZGrizFan]

That was kind of my point to SD....but he focused on one word of my comment instead and avoided the larger issue.

That whole post was centered around assuming that I was indicating that those industries solely used illegal labor; and I pointed out that was not what I stated.

Please provide me a list of people willing to work Agribusiness like the mostly illegal labor that is used. Don't worry, I'll wait. Then when you make that list, you can move onto the service industries and tell me who will work those jobs (janitors, landscapers, cooks, dishwashers, etc). Again, I'll wait. Then when you make that list make one for the construction industry...I think you see where I am going with this.

Really? That post certainly implies that those industries largely employ illegal labor, wouldn't you say? My only point was that while that may be true in the sand/border states, that's not necessarily true when you get further away from the border.

[AZGrizFan]

Again, as JSO said, Hispanics want to facilitate illegal immigration. You really aren't fooling anyone.

BTW, do you really think that all of the landscaping, janitorial, cook, and dishwasher positions are taken by Hispanics? Plenty of people around here are working those jobs...and guess what? They aren't Hispanic.

And, as others have said, all one has to do is riase the wage or get people off the government tit and the crops would be picked.

Your excuses are not hiding your agenda, or your ignorance, very well.

Businesses that hire illegal labor are facilitating illegal immigration. Significantly penalize the companies that do that and illegal immigration would see a drastic reduction as the demand for illegal labor would decrease.

Again I never said "all", and yes I do believe a lot of these jobs found in urban areas would be filled with legal labor if welfare and other "safety nets" were scaled back. However lets not kid ourselves, those agribusiness jobs ain't getting filled by people laid off from their air conditioned, cushy 9-5 job that was in some cookie cutter office building in suburbia hell. As much as you want to turn this into a cut and dry issue, it ain't which is exactly why nothing will get done to fix this issue no matter how badly people harp about it on both sides of the aisle because the fact of the matter is those agribusinesses depend on that cheap illegal labor (as well as other industries). These aren't excuses, just the way it has been for many decades now but go ahead and spin it however you need to fit your agenda.

You're missing a huge piece of why this won't get solved: the left depends on the dependancy of these displaced and unemployed thus it continues providing a government teet (extended unemployment benefits) that encourage them to NOT take the very jobs we're talking about while still voting donk. Trust me---cut off the flow of free gov't money and the vast majority of these people WILL take jobs to feed themselves and their families. We enable them by providing safety nets in the form of government handouts that facilitate the continuance of the issue.

[CID1990]

Casa Blanco.

Let me claim the title of the first gender agreement police on CS!

[bluehenbillk]

I think regardless of who wins the election, 2013 is not going to be the best year for the stock market & the economy. With it being election year here & in Germany right now, there are a lot of band-aids being put on things and when they get pulled off it's not going to be exactly pain-free. There need to be plans of action put in place towards solutions eventually regarding our country's budget/debt/tax structure & the future of the Euro.

I saw someone wrote early on about if BHO is re-elected payroll taxes will go up. I haven't read a thing where either side has shown an interest in letting that tax cut NOT expire. Of all the taxes that we'd get hit with in 2013 that's the best bet.

[kalm]

Businesses that hire illegal labor are facilitating illegal immigration. Significantly penalize the companies that do that and illegal immigration would see a drastic reduction as the demand for illegal labor would decrease.

Again I never said "all", and yes I do believe a lot of these jobs found in urban areas would be filled with legal labor if welfare and other "safety nets" were scaled back. However lets not kid ourselves, those agribusiness jobs ain't getting filled by people laid off from their air conditioned, cushy 9-5 job that was in some cookie cutter office building in suburbia hell. As much as you want to turn this into a cut and dry issue, it ain't which is exactly why nothing will get done to fix this issue no matter how badly people harp about it on both sides of the aisle because the fact of the matter is those agribusinesses depend on that cheap illegal labor (as well as other industries). These aren't excuses, just the way it has been for many decades now but go ahead and spin it however you need to fit your agenda.

You're missing a huge piece of why this won't get solved: the left depends on the dependancy of these displaced and unemployed thus it continues providing a government teet (extended unemployment benefits) that encourage them to NOT take the very jobs we're talking about while still voting donk. Trust me---cut off the flow of free gov't money and the vast majority of these people WILL take jobs to feed themselves and their families. We enable them by providing safety nets in the form of government handouts that facilitate the continuance of the issue.

Ag benefits and lobbies for it too - e.g. Reagan's interior valley farming buddies are what convinced him to provide amnesty. It's a PAIR of tits on this one Z.