Evangelist: Only Christian Aurora Victims Going To Heaven

[JohnStOnge]

What's constantly remarkable is their inability to actually read the other parts of the very same book...
It begs the logical question, over and over - if you believe with ALL OF YOUR HEART that part of the Bible
Why don't you believe the other parts WITH ALL OF YOUR HEART too..?

It's called: "Selectively Intermittent Faith Disorder"
The hard core fundamental belief of one passage / and not the next / This one / but not that one
Until that problem is resolved I'm pretty much going to have to call bullsh!t on the entire thing frankly

Understand that I am an agnostic. But I do go to an evangelical church with my wife for her sake. I think that most of the inconsistency you talk about involves old Testament vs. New Testament. And that one is easy. Basically, Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection changed everything. The rules kind of changed.

One thing I have found is that there are some very highly intelligent people in the church I go to and they could engage you very well. Or you could do something like listen to Ravi Zacharrias. It's not as easy as you think. It's not a bunch of stupid, unusually ingnorant people. They can come up with an answer for just about anything you bring up. I know because I've brought a lot of stuff up to them. I'm not saying I was convinced. But they've got game.

[Skjellyfetti]

Basically, Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection changed everything. The rules kind of changed.

So, Old Testament passages on homosexuality no longer apply?

Jesus was silent on homosexuality.

[houndawg]

That the issue - NO one is going to heaven by the standards these guys set - because these guys are modern day Pharisees.

Actually, modern Evangelical Christianity is heavily into the sovereingty of God. You can't get in with good works. It is all about the sacrifice that Jesus made of himself. Because God is apparently perfect, and completely righteous, he cannot tolerate sin. Therefore, a sacrifice had to be made to attone for the inevitable sin committed by humans to clear the slate. Up until Jesus came along, that had to take the form of an animal sacrifice that met certain very strict requirements contained in the Torah. But Jesus sacrificed himself by coming to Earth as a human, living among us, allowing himself to be subjected to the same tempations and restrictions to time that all humans are, and then being crucified in our stead.Jesus is actually the son of God, but is also God himself, at least one third of God, the other two parts being Yahweh and the Holy Spirit. But when he came to Earth he gave up most of his Godly powers and was just as mortal and weak as the rest of us. His holy, deified blood was apparently enough to compensate for all the sins of all the mortal souls on Earth for the rest of time. All that is required is that you profess faith in him as the devine sovereign ruler of all existence and devote you life to the conversion of others.

I grew hearing this story day in and day out for most of my early life. You think this is **** up? The other side of my family is Jewish. Christianity is pretty tame compared to Judaism.

[JoltinJoe]

I am trying to figure out why anyone would think it remarkable that an Evangelical Christian would think that one has to have accepted Christ in order to go to heaven. That's one of the core beliefs of the group.

What's constantly remarkable is their inability to actually read the other parts of the very same book...
It begs the logical question, over and over - if you believe with ALL OF YOUR HEART that part of the Bible
Why don't you believe the other parts WITH ALL OF YOUR HEART too..?

It's called: "Selectively Intermittent Faith Disorder"
The hard core fundamental belief of one passage / and not the next / This one / but not that one
Until that problem is resolved I'm pretty much going to have to call bullsh!t on the entire thing frankly

The Catholic Church position on salvation of non-Catholics:

An "Assessment of this Council" was written "as an AID to study by Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council. They contain material, some written in a journalistic style, for the American reader." In the section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

[D1B]

What's constantly remarkable is their inability to actually read the other parts of the very same book...
It begs the logical question, over and over - if you believe with ALL OF YOUR HEART that part of the Bible
Why don't you believe the other parts WITH ALL OF YOUR HEART too..?

It's called: "Selectively Intermittent Faith Disorder"
The hard core fundamental belief of one passage / and not the next / This one / but not that one
Until that problem is resolved I'm pretty much going to have to call bullsh!t on the entire thing frankly

The Catholic Church position on salvation of non-Catholics:

An "Assessment of this Council" was written "as an AID to study by Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council. They contain material, some written in a journalistic style, for the American reader." In the section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

Catholics

[JoltinJoe]

Just trying to clarify the Catholic Church's position on the salvation on non-Catholics, since it is so commonly misstated that Catholics believe that others cannot obtain salvation.

The actual teaching is that man cannot place limits on the grace/mercy of God.

If you have nothing to add, then don't add anything.

[D1B]

Just trying to clarify the Catholic Church's position on the salvation on non-Catholics, since it is so commonly misstated that Catholics believe that others cannot obtain salvation.

The actual teaching is that man cannot place limits on the grace/mercy of God.

If you have nothing to add, then don't add anything.

Joe, it was a great move. A great secular humanist move.

That it took the catholic church almost 2000 years to figure out that damning people to eternal hell for not believing in Jesus and the church is inhuman and unsupportable by reason, is pretty depressing. You are after all, the only true church of christ and you have the great moral advantage of that objective source of right and wrong and good and evil working hard for you.

But, like alot of things lately, you catholics are learning.

Keep up the good work and make Paul Kurtz a saint while he's still alive.

[Ibanez]

Just trying to clarify the Catholic Church's position on the salvation on non-Catholics, since it is so commonly misstated that Catholics believe that others cannot obtain salvation.

The actual teaching is that man cannot place limits on the grace/mercy of God.

If you have nothing to add, then don't add anything.

Yes. It seems the RCC is one of the few that try not to limit God's mercy.

IF you believe inthat sort of thing. Good posts JJ.

[D1B]

Just trying to clarify the Catholic Church's position on the salvation on non-Catholics, since it is so commonly misstated that Catholics believe that others cannot obtain salvation.

The actual teaching is that man cannot place limits on the grace/mercy of God.

If you have nothing to add, then don't add anything.

Yes. It seems the RCC is one of the few that try not to limit God's mercy.

IF you believe inthat sort of thing. Good posts JJ.

They were dragged, kicking and screaming to this conclusion. Took em almost 2000 years to figure it out, while many religions had this right several thousand years before christ.

[Ibanez]

Yes. It seems the RCC is one of the few that try not to limit God's mercy.

IF you believe inthat sort of thing. Good posts JJ.

They were dragged, kicking and screaming to this conclusion. Took em almost 2000 years to figure it out, while many religions had this right several thousand years before christ.

Better late than never. Who knows, in 2065 maybe they will accept birth control.

[D1B]

They were dragged, kicking and screaming to this conclusion. Took em almost 2000 years to figure it out, while many religions had this right several thousand years before christ.

Better late than never. Who knows, in 2065 maybe they will accept birth control.

They already kinda do.

98% of catholic women have used some form of artificial birth control.

[Ibanez]

Better late than never. Who knows, in 2065 maybe they will accept birth control.

They already kinda do.

98% of catholic women have used some form of artificial birth control.

I know they do. BUt the CHurch still doesn't approve. Or has that already changed?

[JoltinJoe]

Actually, this has always been the official teaching of the Catholic Church; Vatican II took pains to more carefully express it so that it would not be so easily misunderstood.

Part of the problem has always been the translation that "There is no salvation outside the Church," which does not precisely capture the essence of the original Latin: "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." In English, perhaps it is better understood 'No salvation without the Church," and even Church in that context is being better understood as being the "body of Christ." As such, without the life, death and resurrection of Christ, there is no salvation.

The Catholic Church understands itself to be the earthly body established by Christ, but it also has always understood that the Spirit can work in others through other means.

During the period of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, it was often said that Protestantism was explicitly a rejection of the Body of Christ, and thus Protestants could not be saved. No doubt the popularity of this belief flowed from the blood shed on both sides during that period of history. This error has been rejected as a false teaching for hundreds of years now.

[LeadBolt]

Actually, this has always been the official teaching of the Catholic Church; Vatican II took pains to more carefully express it so that it would not be so easily misunderstood.

Part of the problem has always been the translation that "There is no salvation outside the Church," which does not precisely capture the essence of the original Latin: "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." In English, perhaps it is better understood 'No salvation without the Church," and even Church in that context is being better understood as being the "body of Christ." As such, without the life, death and resurrection of Christ, there is no salvation.

The Catholic Church understands itself to be the earthly body established by Christ, but it also has always understood that the Spirit can work in others through other means.

During the period of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, it was often said that Protestantism was explicitly a rejection of the Body of Christ, and thus Protestants could not be saved. No doubt the popularity of this belief flowed from the blood shed on both sides during that period of history. This error has been rejected as a false teaching for hundreds of years now.

Good to hear. I have a RCC friend who refers to Protestants as heretics, sometimes in jest, sometimes I'm not so sure.

[Chizzang]

The fact that ANY human feels the need to logically discuss "who goes to heaven and who does not" is quite hilarious...

You either believe that God is / or God isn't (It's that simple) anything beyond that and you are PLAYING God
the books and texts and dogma and lies and deceit are so ill constructed and incredible that's it's like scientists telling me "They know how the universe was created" which I find equally as hilarious...

The fact is WE don't know shit...
About God or The Universe (The End)

[D1B]

Actually, this has always been the official teaching of the Catholic Church; Vatican II took pains to more carefully express it so that it would not be so easily misunderstood.

Part of the problem has always been the translation that "There is no salvation outside the Church," which does not precisely capture the essence of the original Latin: "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." In English, perhaps it is better understood 'No salvation without the Church," and even Church in that context is being better understood as being the "body of Christ." As such, without the life, death and resurrection of Christ, there is no salvation.

The Catholic Church understands itself to be the earthly body established by Christ, but it also has always understood that the Spirit can work in others through other means.

During the period of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, it was often said that Protestantism was explicitly a rejection of the Body of Christ, and thus Protestants could not be saved. No doubt the popularity of this belief flowed from the blood shed on both sides during that period of history. This error has been rejected as a false teaching for hundreds of years now.

Bullshit apologist crap, Joe, and you know it. No one is buying this.

Classic mealy mouth catholic.

[D1B]

They already kinda do.

98% of catholic women have used some form of artificial birth control.

I know they do. BUt the CHurch still doesn't approve. Or has that already changed?

Turning a blind eye is a step in the right direction. They've softened their stance on condoms, publicly, in parts of Africa.

[89Hen]

The fact that ANY human feels the need to logically discuss "who goes to heaven and who does not" is quite hilarious...

You either believe that God is / or God isn't (It's that simple) anything beyond that and you are PLAYING God

We discuss who is going to win the NC every season, yet they still play the game and some people are right and some people are wrong on the outcome. Discussing it doesn't make us experts. Just fans.

[D1B]

The Catholic Church understands itself to be the earthly body established by Christ, but it also has always understood that the Spirit can work in others through other means.

Hence the inquisition, crusades, historical hatred of Jews, communists, and severly punishing any dissent from the church for almost 2000 years.

[Appaholic]

The Catholic Church understands itself to be the earthly body established by Christ, but it also has always understood that the Spirit can work in others through other means.

Hence the inquisition, crusades, historical hatred of Jews, communists, and severly punishing any dissent from the church for almost 2000 years.

Nailed it.

[JoltinJoe]

The Catholic Church understands itself to be the earthly body established by Christ, but it also has always understood that the Spirit can work in others through other means.

Hence the inquisition, crusades, historical hatred of Jews, communists, and severly punishing any dissent from the church for almost 2000 years.

Typical. Take history, and then exaggerate.

[youngterrier]

[JoltinJoe]

The fact that ANY human feels the need to logically discuss "who goes to heaven and who does not" is quite hilarious...

You either believe that God is / or God isn't (It's that simple) anything beyond that and you are PLAYING God
the books and texts and dogma and lies and deceit are so ill constructed and incredible that's it's like scientists telling me "They know how the universe was created" which I find equally as hilarious...

The fact is WE don't know ****...
About God or The Universe (The End)

I don't think the discussion is properly over who goes to heaven and who does not (although some do discuss that).

The proper discussion is what do I do to reach"salvation."

'Heaven" is some transcendental experience, some union with God which is beyond our understanding, and which occurs in those dimensions we do not perceive. I'm not sure what it is, but I know it is some union with God.

Hell is a separation from God -- a separation which we have chosen through our deeds.

[Ibanez]

Hence the inquisition, crusades, historical hatred of Jews, communists, and severly punishing any dissent from the church for almost 2000 years.

Typical. Take history, and then exaggerate.

Right. He should have stated "on and off since its inception."

[D1B]

Typical. Take history, and then exaggerate.

Right. He should have stated "on and off since its inception."

Mostly off. And Joe is a fucking liar.