Liberal Logic 101

CID1990 · Post by **CID1990** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:16 am

BlueHen86 wrote:
Bronco wrote:-
If you are into boycotting I would suggest gasoline supplied by OPEC
OPEC countries kill all the Gheys that the find. A little more serious than a man of principal stating that he supports traditional marriage.

But you won’t
I wonder how he feels about divorce? Seems to me that if people really cared about traditional marriage they would have a problem with divorce. They are silent on that issue, but they worry about gay marriage.

It's not really about divorce, it's about hate. The marriage issue is a just a convenient cover for their real motivation.

I don't think divorce is exactly being trumpeted in the media and being used as a political football the way gay marriage is right now. I am fairly certain that if you asked him he would have some consistent beliefs about divorce.

death dealer · Post by **death dealer** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:42 am

BlueHen86 wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote: They hate homosexuals. The perspective you are talking about is just a bunch of BS they use so that they sound legitimate.

death dealer wrote: Really doesn't matter what JSO posts and how long. You are incorrect in your conclusions. You don't know what you are talking about here. I know plenty of knuckle draggers who hate gays. These guys truly believe that homosexuals are sinning and that the bible is the literal word of their god and that it prohibits homosexuality and thus their marriage. It's not about hating them. They would love them up in the name of the lord, but they dont have a single problem telling them they are going to burn in hell as long as they continue smoking pole. But they'll tell you the same thing is true for drinkers, dancers, fornicators, etc.
Don't get me wrong. I agree that there are plenty of assholes more than willing to play off of the genuine beliefs of these poor saps to further a hate based agenda. But these evangelicals are for real man. I mean scary real. It's surreal sometimes when I get in a long discussion out on a bike ride with one of my buddies about it. He is a great guy, uber intelligent, as great taste in music, is over all a cool guy. But he is sold out for Jesus. And he's so freaking smart he can make some pretty compelling arguments despite the overwhelming empirical evidence against him. It's fun talking to him because he really pushes me intellectually. But I know that when we're done I go home shower and dont think about it much until the next time. He goes home, showers, and prays for my lost soul. That's what I'm talking about. He truly thinks he can pray me into a conversion. In a way it's touching.
Thanks for clearing that up.

houndawg · Post by **houndawg** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:52 am

Chizzang wrote:So please tell me only ding-bats like SuperHornet see the Irony of one party and NOT the other..?
I mean it's fun to point out the short sighted pitfalls of "the other guy"
Somebody start a thread where in order - each side gets to make a point about the other sides hypocrisy

Example:
Strom Thurmond / Jesse Jackson...
Two guys that argued different sides of the same argument - that were both completely full of sh!t

Next...

Strom got way more pussy than JJ.

houndawg · Post by **houndawg** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:55 am

JohnStOnge wrote:
Yeah, they don't hate gays...they're being "spiritual"!
They actually do NOT hate homosexuals. But they consider homosexual behavior to be sinful.

That's one thing you guys need to understand. It's not hate. The Evangelical Christian perspective is that everyone is a sinner and that only the grace of God saves people. The theology is not one of hating people because of sin.

They honestly, sincerely believe that God ordained marriage as being a union of one man and one woman (even though yes I know one could use the Bible to question the "one" part). It's not hate.

And they wonder why people are embarrassed for them...

Post by **BlueHen86** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:56 am

CID1990 wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:
I wonder how he feels about divorce? Seems to me that if people really cared about traditional marriage they would have a problem with divorce. They are silent on that issue, but they worry about gay marriage.

It's not really about divorce, it's about hate. The marriage issue is a just a convenient cover for their real motivation.
I don't think divorce is exactly being trumpeted in the media and being used as a political football the way gay marriage is right now. I am fairly certain that if you asked him he would have some consistent beliefs about divorce.

Isn't that the problem though? They are okay with a traditional marriage coming to and end via divorce, but they are against a "non'traditional" marriage even taking place. If you're going to talk about the importance of traditional marriage you should concern yourself with the whole package, not just focus on a portion of the issue in order to serve another agenda.

SuperHornet · Post by **SuperHornet** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:18 am

Ibanez wrote:These Christians that are anti gay are usually gluttons with multiple divorce.

There are PLENTY of Christians who fit this statement, MUCH more than there should be. But "usually?"

Post by **kalm** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:19 pm

death dealer wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:

Don't get me wrong. I agree that there are plenty of assholes more than willing to play off of the genuine beliefs of these poor saps to further a hate based agenda. But these evangelicals are for real man. I mean scary real. It's surreal sometimes when I get in a long discussion out on a bike ride with one of my buddies about it. He is a great guy, uber intelligent, as great taste in music, is over all a cool guy. But he is sold out for Jesus. And he's so freaking smart he can make some pretty compelling arguments despite the overwhelming empirical evidence against him. It's fun talking to him because he really pushes me intellectually. But I know that when we're done I go home shower and dont think about it much until the next time. He goes home, showers, and prays for my lost soul. That's what I'm talking about. He truly thinks he can pray me into a conversion. In a way it's touching.
Thanks for clearing that up.

In all honesty, there are obviously some truly outstanding evangelicals who walk the walk, and are loving, non-hating people. I've known several. Too bad the public persona and official positions of these groups are dominated by the haters.

LeadBolt · Post by **LeadBolt** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:30 pm

Living in Atlanta and being evangelical, I have a passing knowledge of the Cathy family and have met them. Several of my friends work for Chick-Fil-A corporate.

I have been to a marriage enrichment weekend which is funded by the Cathy family. They do believe in traditional marriage and support it with their money and time.

Believe that while these folks believe that homosexuality is a sin, they go out of their way to treat everyone equally. While all people are hypocrites and to some degree descriminate against those with differing beliefs, within both the Christian and the gay community (which are not always mutually exclusive), I believe the Cathy's or Chick-Fil-A do so less than about anyone.

As stated earlier, these people consider all to be sinners, including themselves and in need of God's grace. They do not hold one standard for themselves and another for others.

Post by **Ibanez** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:35 pm

LeadBolt wrote:Living in Atlanta and being evangelical, I have a passing knowledge of the Cathy family and have met them. Several of my friends work for Chick-Fil-A corporate.

I have been to a marriage enrichment weekend which is funded by the Cathy family. They do believe in traditional marriage and support it with their money and time.

Believe that while these folks believe that homosexuality is a sin, they go out of their way to treat everyone equally. While all people are hypocrites and to some degree descriminate against those with differing beliefs, within both the Christian and the gay community (which are not always mutually exclusive), I believe the Cathy's or Chick-Fil-A do so less than about anyone.

As stated earlier, these people consider all to be sinners, including themselves and in need of God's grace. They do not hold one standard for themselves and another for others.

they seem to avoid the pregnant teens and divorcees who ruin the sanctity of marriage more so than consenting gay adults.

Post by **kalm** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:36 pm

LeadBolt wrote:Living in Atlanta and being evangelical, I have a passing knowledge of the Cathy family and have met them. Several of my friends work for Chick-Fil-A corporate.

I have been to a marriage enrichment weekend which is funded by the Cathy family. They do believe in traditional marriage and support it with their money and time.

Believe that while these folks believe that homosexuality is a sin, they go out of their way to treat everyone equally. While many people are hypocrites and descriminate against those with differing beliefs, within both the Christian and the gay community (which are not always mutually exclusive), I don't believe the Cathy's of Chick-Fil-A do.

As stated earlier, these people consider all to be sinners, including themselves and in need of God's grace. They do not hold one standard for themselves and another for others.

But their good graces end when they support the denial of other's freedom.

I'm guessing if Jesus came out of hiding, he'd be an evolved christian and have no problem with the gay lifestyle or gay marriage rights as the situation currently exists. But perhaps I've been reading that hippy, lovey, Jesus stuff all wrong.

Post by **BlueHen86** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:49 pm

kalm wrote:
death dealer wrote:
In all honesty, there are obviously some truly outstanding evangelicals who walk the walk, and are loving, non-hating people. I've known several. Too bad the public persona and official positions of these groups are dominated by the haters.

Agreed. No doubt there are some who are non-haters but in my opinion they are the minority, probably by a lot.

LeadBolt · Post by **LeadBolt** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:16 pm

kalm wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:Living in Atlanta and being evangelical, I have a passing knowledge of the Cathy family and have met them. Several of my friends work for Chick-Fil-A corporate.

I have been to a marriage enrichment weekend which is funded by the Cathy family. They do believe in traditional marriage and support it with their money and time.

Believe that while these folks believe that homosexuality is a sin, they go out of their way to treat everyone equally. While many people are hypocrites and descriminate against those with differing beliefs, within both the Christian and the gay community (which are not always mutually exclusive), I don't believe the Cathy's of Chick-Fil-A do.

As stated earlier, these people consider all to be sinners, including themselves and in need of God's grace. They do not hold one standard for themselves and another for others.
But their good graces end when they support the denial of other's freedom.

I did not see where Dan Cathy denied anyone anything, he merely stated his belief. I did see where officials in Boston and Chicago are trying to deny Chick-Fil-A there freedom to operate in their jurisdictions. I believe Mayor Bloomberg of NY is correct in his assessment of the situation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/28/nyreg ... riate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“It’s inappropriate for a city government, or a state government, or the federal government to look at somebody’s political views and decide whether or not they can live in the city, or operate a business in the city, or work for somebody in the city,” the mayor said on his Friday morning radio show.
I'm guessing if Jesus came out of hiding, he'd be an evolved christian and have no problem with the gay lifestyle or gay marriage rights as the situation currently exists. But perhaps I've been reading that hippy, lovey, Jesus stuff all wrong.

“You can’t have a test for what the owners’ personal views are before you decide to give a permit to do something in the city,” Mr. Bloomberg said, citing concerns about censorship and freedom of speech. “You really don’t want to ask political beliefs or religious beliefs before you issue a permit. That’s just not government’s job.”

Post by **kalm** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:51 pm

LeadBolt wrote:
kalm wrote:
But their good graces end when they support the denial of other's freedom.

I did not see where Dan Cathy denied anyone anything, he merely stated his belief. I did see where officials in Boston and Chicago are trying to deny Chick-Fil-A there freedom to operate in their jurisdictions. I believe Mayor Bloomberg of NY is correct in his assessment of the situation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/28/nyreg ... riate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with Bloomberg.

But it's been reported that Chick Fil A has donated millions to various anti-gay groups which, again, is certainly their right. Just like it's my right to ridicule them for their lack of grace and love. Decide whether you believe in the ideals of "all men created equal", "the pursuit of happiness", and "liberty and justice for all" or don't. You don't get to have it both ways and you look kind of foolish hiding behind the liberty excuse.

LeadBolt · Post by **LeadBolt** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:59 pm

see below

LeadBolt · Post by **LeadBolt** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:00 pm

LeadBolt wrote:
kalm wrote:
I agree with Bloomberg.

But it's been reported that Chick Fil A has donated millions to various anti-gay groups which, again, is certainly their right. Just like it's my right to ridicule them for their lack of grace and love. Decide whether you believe in the ideals of "all men created equal", "the pursuit of happiness", and "liberty and justice for all" or don't. You don't get to have it both ways and you look kind of foolish hiding behind the liberty excuse.
I'm not trying to have it both ways, but based upon what you have written in this thread, it appears you do.

Would you be so kind as to let me know what the so called anti-gay groups you referenced above are and how they have denied others their freedom?

Do I have to believe as you do to believe in the bolded part above, or is it ok for me to have differing beliefs?

While I don't support gay marriage, I do not do anything to stop anyone from practicing sexual acts or life style as they see fit and most certainly I don't ridicule them as you say you do to others who don't believe as you do.

PS - Do you feel your ridicule is an act of grace and love?

LeadBolt · Post by **LeadBolt** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Too tired

Post by **kalm** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:16 pm

LeadBolt wrote:Too tired

No worries LB. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But they will be called out when they monetarily support groups that attempt to deny the rights of others. And this goes both to the mayors and Chick Fil A.

Peace.

LeadBolt · Post by **LeadBolt** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:33 pm

kalm wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:Too tired
No worries LB. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But they will be called out when they monetarily support groups that attempt to deny the rights of others. And this goes both to the mayors and Chick Fil A.

Peace.

Agreed, and we all (me and you included) will be called out. I was serious in my inquiry above:

Would you be so kind as to let me know what the so called anti-gay groups you referenced above are and how they have denied others their freedom?

I would like to know who these groups you referenced are and how these groups are denied freedom to gays. If I am convinced I will address it directly with people I know who work at Chick-Fil-A.

Post by **BlueHen86** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:00 pm

death dealer wrote:
BlueHen86 wrote:

Don't get me wrong. I agree that there are plenty of assholes more than willing to play off of the genuine beliefs of these poor saps to further a hate based agenda. But these evangelicals are for real man. I mean scary real. It's surreal sometimes when I get in a long discussion out on a bike ride with one of my buddies about it. He is a great guy, uber intelligent, as great taste in music, is over all a cool guy. But he is sold out for Jesus. And he's so freaking smart he can make some pretty compelling arguments despite the overwhelming empirical evidence against him. It's fun talking to him because he really pushes me intellectually. But I know that when we're done I go home shower and dont think about it much until the next time. He goes home, showers, and prays for my lost soul. That's what I'm talking about. He truly thinks he can pray me into a conversion. In a way it's touching.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Nice job using the quote function.

Whose family is supposed to be inbred again?

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:32 am

But their good graces end when they support the denial of other's freedom.

You guys need to stop saying that. Nobody is being denied freedom by virtue of how marriage is defined, HOWEVER it is defined. If this guy was pushing for a law outlawing homosexual behavior he'd be pushing for denial of freedom. But he's not. He is simply saying he thinks marriage should be defined as a certain type of union between one male and one female. Opting not to confer a recognition upon a relationship is not a denial of freedom. The people involved are still free to have their relationship.

The fact that married couples have certain benefits unmarried couples do not have isn't a denial of freedom either. You're not being denied freedom by virtue of someone opting not to provide you with benefits.

As I've written before, if marriage is defined at all in any way other than one that allows marriage between any combination and number of individuals the definition will not fit some relationships some people want to have.

Calling it "hate speech" is ridiculous too. We've gotten to the point where "hate" is defined as disagreeing with liberals/progressives. At least that's the way it is with liberals/progressives. Good GOSH the brainwashing of the culture by the "homosexuality is normal" movement has really been effective.

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:36 am

But they will be called out when they monetarily support groups that attempt to deny the rights of others.

And nobody's being denied any "right" by virtue of defining marriage in a particular way either. Nobody has a legitimate right to have OTHER PEOPLE view a relationship they have in a particular way. Again, if someone was saying they couldn't have the relationship then a right would be violated. But having others say, "we're not going to call your relationship 'marriage.'" is not.

You are not "entitled" to have other people view you or what you do in any particular way.

JohnStOnge · Post by **JohnStOnge** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:47 am

When I was looking at this I learned that all references to this "Chik Fil La Appreciation Day" disappeared from Facebook for 12 hours.
[img]ttp://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/552662_10150986859183634_1617751414_n.jpg[/img]

Well that's interesting. The image won't show up. Anyway it's August 1. So don't forget to buy your chicken sandwich on August 1.

Post by **UNI88** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:50 am

kalm wrote:
LeadBolt wrote:Too tired
No worries LB. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But they will be called out when they monetarily support groups that attempt to deny the rights of others. And this goes both to the mayors and Chick Fil A.

Peace.

That's how you see it. They see homosexuality as a sin and by supporting these groups they believe they're helping maintain a level of morality in society as well as save people from an eternity of damnation. I don't agree with that perspective but I understand that they're not trying to deny the rights of others. You have a different perspective than they do and only time will tell who's right.

Post by **kalm** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:19 am

UNI88 wrote:
kalm wrote:
No worries LB. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But they will be called out when they monetarily support groups that attempt to deny the rights of others. And this goes both to the mayors and Chick Fil A.

Peace.
That's how you see it. They see homosexuality as a sin and by supporting these groups they believe they're helping maintain a level of morality in society as well as save people from an eternity of damnation. I don't agree with that perspective but I understand that they're not trying to deny the rights of others. You have a different perspective than they do and only time will tell who's right.

Or, they don't "think" they're attempting to deny rights.

Post by **BlueHen86** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:20 am

JohnStOnge wrote:When I was looking at this I learned that all references to this "Chik Fil La Appreciation Day" disappeared from Facebook for 12 hours.
[img]ttp://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/552662_10150986859183634_1617751414_n.jpg[/img]

Well that's interesting. The image won't show up. Anyway it's August 1. So don't forget to buy your chicken sandwich on August 1.

I don't plan on boycotting Chick-Fil-A, but I also don't plan on going out of my way to show them appreciation.

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