Socialism Returns to France

[kalm]

Keynes also thought that deficit spending shouldn't occur in time of growth either, but we see how so-called modern day "Keynesians" don't ascribe to those ideals any more.

Neo-Keynesians aren't Keynesians at all. They are socialists. The Left has embraced the government stimulus aspect of the Keynesian model because it justifies their expanding government and governmental control. They have conveniently forgotten the other side of the Keynesian model.

Keynes was never a socialist, as many socialists like to claim. He was a lifelong member of the Liberal Party. He rejected the approaches of the Labour Party, who wanted to make Keynes the face and voice of British socialism.

True, and the exact same can be said of conservatives.

[CitadelGrad]

Neo-Keynesians aren't Keynesians at all. They are socialists. The Left has embraced the government stimulus aspect of the Keynesian model because it justifies their expanding government and governmental control. They have conveniently forgotten the other side of the Keynesian model.

Keynes was never a socialist, as many socialists like to claim. He was a lifelong member of the Liberal Party. He rejected the approaches of the Labour Party, who wanted to make Keynes the face and voice of British socialism.

True, and the exact same can be said of conservatives.

For good reason. It just doesn't work.

[Ivytalk]

They've always been revolting!

France: What the U.S. will be like in 5 years. Minus the muslins.

Don't make me pull out Taibbi's prophetic "googley eyed peasant" screed from 4 years ago.

Please don't.

[CID1990]

Don't disagree. Keynes was right in that austerity should occur during times of growth. That seems to be a big part of the problem here. The middle class is dangerous, especially once you show them how good life can be. They might just throw the cake back in your face.

Keynes also thought that deficit spending shouldn't occur in time of growth either, but we see how so-called modern day "Keynesians" don't ascribe to those ideals any more.

"I find myself more and more relying for a solution of our problems on the invisible hand which I tried to eject from economic thinking twenty years ago."
--John Maynard Keynes
April 11 1946

Keynes is a lot like the Bible; folks like to belt out what suits them and conveniently ignore what doesn't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk while driving on the interstate and brushing my teeth.

[Seahawks08]

France: What the U.S. will be like in 5 years. Minus the muslins.

yea ok...people who compare countries like France and Greece to the U.S. are delusional. Scare tactics at their finest!

[UNI88]

France: What the U.S. will be like in 5 years. Minus the muslins.

yea ok...people who compare countries like France and Greece to the U.S. are delusional. Scare tactics at their finest!

Gotta disagree here. There is both logic and value in comparing the U.S. to other countries, especially European ones. Are you arguing that there is no risk of:
- The U.S. promising more government benefits than current tax dollars can pay for?
- Our children and grandchildren being asked to pay off increasing debt levels in order to pay for benefits today?
- Of high debt and reduced credit ratings choking growth and employment and causing the need for a serious reduction in benefits?

Granted the Europeans partially funded their economies by bringing in large numbers of immigrants (Turks in Germany, Pakistanis in GB, North Africans in France, etc.) to increase the labor force and thus the tax pool and the U.S. isn't bringing in immigrants at the same rate or with the same risk of cultural tensions.

Europe definitely provides a warning of how big government can go wrong that we would be fools to ignore.

[SDHornet]

[Seahawks08]

Yes, you are correct with the general prescription of what needs to be done. But to compare the U.S. economy to the economies of countries like France and Greece is laughable. Do either of those countries have Silicon Valley? Do they have New York City or Chicago? Places where innovation and the world economy meet? The U.S. economy, as it stands right now, can produce products for the world to buy in technology and manufacturing that no one else can. Cuts that need to be made like you are suggesting should never be done during a recession or coming out of one. When the economy gets back on track at a consistent rate of expansion, then you do the cuts.

[UNI88]

Yes, you are correct with the general prescription of what needs to be done. But to compare the U.S. economy to the economies of countries like France and Greece is laughable. Do either of those countries have Silicon Valley? Do they have New York City or Chicago? Places where innovation and the world economy meet? The U.S. economy, as it stands right now, can produce products for the world to buy in technology and manufacturing that no one else can. Cuts that need to be made like you are suggesting should never be done during a recession or coming out of one. When the economy gets back on track at a consistent rate of expansion, then you do the cuts.

Um ... aris, Athens, Nice just to name a few cities - France and Greece aren't exactly shrinking violets on the world stage. Illinois and California appear to be competing to be the American version of Greece or France. And Illinois has a lot of similarities with France: an employment entitlement mentality, debts (especially pension and healthcare) that are choking state & local governments (the Great Rahmfather was in Capital this week lobbying for pension reform) and scaring away employers and investors.

And when you're out of the recession the politicians will argue that you don't need the cuts, growth will take care of the deficits. I understand that you don't want to make too draconian of cuts but you can't just stick your head in the sand and say we can't make any cuts until we're out of the recession. Businesses, investors, etc. are nervous and they want to see signs of stability and fiscal responsibility.

[AZGrizFan]

yea ok...people who compare countries like France and Greece to the U.S. are delusional. Scare tactics at their finest!

Gotta disagree here. There is both logic and value in comparing the U.S. to other countries, especially European ones. Are you arguing that there is no risk of:
- The U.S. promising more government benefits than current tax dollars can pay for?
- Our children and grandchildren being asked to pay off increasing debt levels in order to pay for benefits today?
- Of high debt and reduced credit ratings choking growth and employment and causing the need for a serious reduction in benefits?

Granted the Europeans partially funded their economies by bringing in large numbers of immigrants (Turks in Germany, Pakistanis in GB, North Africans in France, etc.) to increase the labor force and thus the tax pool and the U.S. isn't bringing in immigrants at the same rate or with the same risk of cultural tensions.

Europe definitely provides a warning of how big government can go wrong that we would be fools to ignore.

What do you mean "risk of"? All THREE of those things are ALREADY happening. It's here. NOW.

[kalm]

Yes, you are correct with the general prescription of what needs to be done. But to compare the U.S. economy to the economies of countries like France and Greece is laughable. Do either of those countries have Silicon Valley? Do they have New York City or Chicago? Places where innovation and the world economy meet? The U.S. economy, as it stands right now, can produce products for the world to buy in technology and manufacturing that no one else can. Cuts that need to be made like you are suggesting should never be done during a recession or coming out of one. When the economy gets back on track at a consistent rate of expansion, then you do the cuts.

Um ... aris, Athens, Nice just to name a few cities - France and Greece aren't exactly shrinking violets on the world stage. Illinois and California appear to be competing to be the American version of Greece or France. And Illinois has a lot of similarities with France: an employment entitlement mentality, debts (especially pension and healthcare) that are choking state & local governments (the Great Rahmfather was in Capital this week lobbying for pension reform) and scaring away employers and investors.

And when you're out of the recession the politicians will argue that you don't need the cuts, growth will take care of the deficits. I understand that you don't want to make too draconian of cuts but you can't just stick your head in the sand and say we can't make any cuts until we're out of the recession. Businesses, investors, etc. are nervous and they want to see signs of stability and fiscal responsibility.

And no tax increases or regulation during or after. Free lunch for everyone!

[HI54UNI]

Um ... aris, Athens, Nice just to name a few cities - France and Greece aren't exactly shrinking violets on the world stage. Illinois and California appear to be competing to be the American version of Greece or France. And Illinois has a lot of similarities with France: an employment entitlement mentality, debts (especially pension and healthcare) that are choking state & local governments (the Great Rahmfather was in Capital this week lobbying for pension reform) and scaring away employers and investors.

And when you're out of the recession the politicians will argue that you don't need the cuts, growth will take care of the deficits. I understand that you don't want to make too draconian of cuts but you can't just stick your head in the sand and say we can't make any cuts until we're out of the recession. Businesses, investors, etc. are nervous and they want to see signs of stability and fiscal responsibility.

And no tax increases or regulation during or after. Free lunch for everyone!

Even Obama is telling the new French leader not to increase taxes. Maybe he is learning.

[kalm]

And no tax increases or regulation during or after. Free lunch for everyone!

Even Obama is telling the new French leader not to increase taxes. Maybe he is learning.

That's my point. People want a social safety net, trillion dollar wars, state of the art infrastructure, public safety, and subsidies for their industries and nobody wants to pay for it. Kinda sad really.

[UNI88]

Even Obama is telling the new French leader not to increase taxes. Maybe he is learning.

That's my point. People want a social safety net, trillion dollar wars, state of the art infrastructure, public safety, and subsidies for their industries and nobody wants to pay for it. Kinda sad really.

True!

The Dems think you can reduce the deficit simply by pretending it isn't there and continuing to spend money on entitlement programs. They even look for ways to increase the size and scope of government spending. What they don't seem to understand is that while the government can print its own money, at some point in time you have to pay the piper.

The Reps are a little better right now in that they're at least looking at what they can cut to reduce the deficit. But they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of a tax increase. And if the Dems want to play chicken with the Bush tax cuts, call their bluff and let them all expire. Bush didn't just cut taxes for the rich, he cut taxes for everyone (or at least everyone that paid them). Where the Reps look like hypocrites is when their collective amnesia prevents them from admitting that Obama is just escalating Bush's spending habits. What idiot cuts taxes during wartime? I believe Bush was the first POTUS to ever do that.

Would it be mean of me to explain the situation to my kids so that they could talk to their grandparents about how it's their (my kids') future earnings that will be taxed to pay for the benefits that Grammy & Grampa are getting from the government today and then ask if the legacy that they want to leave to their grandchildren is a mountain of debt? We could film various kids having these kinds of conversations; those could be some powerful commercials. How would the AARP respond to that?

[Seahawks08]

Paris and Athens? NYC, Chicago, and LA all have a larger economic impact than Paris. And Athens doesn't even come close. Cities such as Pittsburgh and Cleveland have better economies than Athens. Not to mention France and Greece have to deal with the Euro mess. Again, the U.S. will not be either France or Greece anytime soon.

That being said, I agree completely with your next assessment:

The Dems think you can reduce the deficit simply by pretending it isn't there and continuing to spend money on entitlement programs. They even look for ways to increase the size and scope of government spending. What they don't seem to understand is that while the government can print its own money, at some point in time you have to pay the piper.

The Reps are a little better right now in that they're at least looking at what they can cut to reduce the deficit. But they aren't willing to entertain the possibility of a tax increase. And if the Dems want to play chicken with the Bush tax cuts, call their bluff and let them all expire. Bush didn't just cut taxes for the rich, he cut taxes for everyone (or at least everyone that paid them). Where the Reps look like hypocrites is when their collective amnesia prevents them from admitting that Obama is just escalating Bush's spending habits. What idiot cuts taxes during wartime? I believe Bush was the first POTUS to ever do that.

Would it be mean of me to explain the situation to my kids so that they could talk to their grandparents about how it's their (my kids') future earnings that will be taxed to pay for the benefits that Grammy & Grampa are getting from the government today and then ask if the legacy that they want to leave to their grandchildren is a mountain of debt? We could film various kids having these kinds of conversations; those could be some powerful commercials. How would the AARP respond to that?

[UNI88]

Paris and Athens? NYC, Chicago, and LA all have a larger economic impact than Paris. And Athens doesn't even come close. Cities such as Pittsburgh and Cleveland have better economies than Athens. Not to mention France and Greece have to deal with the Euro mess. Again, the U.S. will not be either France or Greece anytime soon.

I haven't done the research but I would hazard a guess that Paris is pretty darn close to Chicago and LA in economic impact.

I'm not arguing that the U.S. as a whole is about to become France or Greece, I'm simply stating that they should serve as a warning of what happens when you over-promise government services & benefits and are unable to deliver. It's a government sponsored Ponzi scheme and it's unsustainable!

I would argue that Chicago and Illinois are in pretty bad financial shape. Maybe not Athens and Greece shape but closer to Paris and France than most want to admit. Illinois raised its income tax rate by 67% last year and that entire increase wasn't near enough to fix just the state's unfunded pension liability. They haven't begun to address the pension and health care liability of Chicago and other municipalities. Workers comp costs, malpractice insurance, etc. are higher than neighboring states. It's a great state with a lot going for it but it's fiscally unstable and it could all unravel if the politicians don't get their heads out of the azzes and do something about it.

[Seahawks08]

The city information is based on gdp rankings from pricewaterhousecoopers. After looking at it again, Paris is close to Chicago, but LA and NYC, not so much.

I just can't stand when people say the U.S. will turn into Greece or France within 5-10 years, basically a doomsday scenario. It's something that Glenn Beck or Hannity or Rush would say and it's not going to happen.

But I agree, France and Greece should serve as warnings and I think they have. Politicians can no longer look the other way when it comes to spending. They will be held accountable or else replaced.

[SDHornet]

The city information is based on gdp rankings from pricewaterhousecoopers. After looking at it again, Paris is close to Chicago, but LA and NYC, not so much.

I just can't stand when people say the U.S. will turn into Greece or France within 5-10 years, basically a doomsday scenario. It's something that Glenn Beck or Hannity or Rush would say and it's not going to happen.

But I agree, France and Greece should serve as warnings and I think they have. Politicians can no longer look the other way when it comes to spending. They will be held accountable or else replaced.

In a logical world yes, in the world we live in, no.

[Ivytalk]

The city information is based on gdp rankings from pricewaterhousecoopers. After looking at it again, Paris is close to Chicago, but LA and NYC, not so much.

I just can't stand when people say the U.S. will turn into Greece or France within 5-10 years, basically a doomsday scenario. It's something that Glenn Beck or Hannity or Rush would say and it's not going to happen.

But I agree, France and Greece should serve as warnings and I think they have. Politicians can no longer look the other way when it comes to spending. They will be held accountable or else replaced.

Most naive post of the week. What do you think will happen with respect to the "fiscal tsunami" facing the US on 12/31/12? Do you honestly think there will be some rational plan, like Simpson Bowles, to right the ship? Or will there be a panic-filled, finger-pointing, last-minute, Jerry- built can- kicking after election day, like we saw last year? My money is on the latter, as well as on a healthy return of incumbents to office. You obviously believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and Andy Talley's ability to produce a national championship in 2012!

[kalm]

The city information is based on gdp rankings from pricewaterhousecoopers. After looking at it again, Paris is close to Chicago, but LA and NYC, not so much.

I just can't stand when people say the U.S. will turn into Greece or France within 5-10 years, basically a doomsday scenario. It's something that Glenn Beck or Hannity or Rush would say and it's not going to happen.

But I agree, France and Greece should serve as warnings and I think they have. Politicians can no longer look the other way when it comes to spending. They will be held accountable or else replaced.

Most naive post of the week. What do you think will happen with respect to the "fiscal tsunami" facing the US on 12/31/12? Do you honestly think there will be some rational plan, like Simpson Bowles, to right the ship? Or will there be a panic-filled, finger-pointing, last-minute, Jerry- built can- kicking after election day, like we saw last year? My money is on the latter, as well as on a healthy return of incumbents to office. You obviously believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and Andy Talley's ability to produce a national championship in 2012!

Austerity for the middle class, socialism for the banks!

[Ivytalk]

Most naive post of the week. What do you think will happen with respect to the "fiscal tsunami" facing the US on 12/31/12? Do you honestly think there will be some rational plan, like Simpson Bowles, to right the ship? Or will there be a panic-filled, finger-pointing, last-minute, Jerry- built can- kicking after election day, like we saw last year? My money is on the latter, as well as on a healthy return of incumbents to office. You obviously believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and Andy Talley's ability to produce a national championship in 2012!

Austerity for the middle class, socialism for the banks!

There you go again, Jimmy. Let GM and Citigroup fail next time. Just don't touch my Social Security, my local post office, or my farm subsidy.

[kalm]

Austerity for the middle class, socialism for the banks!

There you go again, Jimmy. Let GM and Citigroup fail next time. Just don't touch my Social Security, my local post office, or my farm subsidy.

Just reporting the truth my friend. Funny how very few people want to involve businesses in the austerity idea. Poor banks, they don't really need a hand out, they need a hand up. This financial services entitlement culture is creating a whole generation of lazy dependent bankers.

[Baldy]

Austerity for the middle class, socialism for the banks!

There you go again, Jimmy. Let GM and Citigroup fail next time. Just don't touch my Social Security, my local post office, or my farm subsidy.

...or my Medicare, or my Medicaid, or my Food Stamps, or my refundable tax credits, or my WIC...

[Ivytalk]

There you go again, Jimmy. Let GM and Citigroup fail next time. Just don't touch my Social Security, my local post office, or my farm subsidy.

Just reporting the truth my friend. Funny how very few people want to involve businesses in the austerity idea. Poor banks, they don't really need a hand out, they need a hand up. This financial services entitlement culture is creating a whole generation of lazy dependent bankers.

I was against the bailouts from the beginning. Just don't let John Q and Mary Public off the hook for suckling at the Guvmint teat.

[Baldy]

There you go again, Jimmy. Let GM and Citigroup fail next time. Just don't touch my Social Security, my local post office, or my farm subsidy.

Just reporting the truth my friend. Funny how very few people want to involve businesses in the austerity idea. Poor banks, they don't really need a hand out, they need a hand up. This financial services entitlement culture is creating a whole generation of lazy dependent bankers.

According to your buddy Paul Krugman, they are too big to fail and should get a hand out and a hand up.