The Causes...

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The Causes...

Post by kalm »

Very interesting interview of Wall Street insider Barry Ritholtz about the causes of the financial crisis and suggested reading on the subject. If you are one of those,ahem, "informed" conks and acolytes of the "rational free market" who still want to blame it on the CRA you might not want to read this. :lol:
I originally thought we were going to be talking about Wall Street today. But I got the sense from some of your book choices that one of the biggest offenders wasn’t based on Wall Street at all, but on Constitution Avenue in Washington, D.C.

When you get bit by a dog, you don’t just look at the dog, you have to look at the owner who is holding the leash. To me, a lot of the regulatory changes, and a lot of what the Federal Reserve did, stand on their own as a major factor. But if you’ve read David Hume, if you’ve studied the philosophy of causation, you have to look at what motivated those changes. I have these debates with friends. One group blames everything on big government; the other group blames everything on big corporations. The sad news is that there’s really no difference between the two: Big government and big corporations work hand-in-hand. If you want to know who is the puppet and who is the puppet master, it sure looks like Wall Street has been pulling the strings of Congress for many, many, many years.

If I had been the Fed chief, I would have said: “Let me explain this to you, Jamie. I know the history of JP Morgan.” (Everybody thinks Dimon is this genius who avoided the subprime situation, but that’s actually not true. They just ran into their subprime problem way earlier than everybody else, so when they had to liquidate, there was a bid there.) “I’m looking at the derivative book of Bear Stearns. It’s $8 trillion and you’re the single biggest counterparty. So if they go down, it’s your problem. So here is what I am willing to do. When you go into receivership, I’ll promise not to put you in jail

Going back to the underlying causes, the American obsession with deregulation played a big part. Your second book, “The Myth of the Rational Market” looks at the intellectual underpinnings of that worldview.

Yes, so everything was working fine. The original concept – which started under Carter but was accelerated under Reagan – was that government has gotten too unwieldy. Regulation is too costly, too time-consuming and there’s too much red tape. There is a legitimate argument that bureaucracies tend to feed on themselves, and you have to constantly hack back at some of the vines and undergrowth. But somehow, “Let’s clear out some regulations and make it easier for business,” morphed over time to become, “The market knows better than anybody else, let’s get rid of any and all oversight, any and all regulation, any and all things that get in the way of the efficient market.” So what started out as, “Let’s clear out some of the excesses,” became, “Let’s get rid of all the rules.”

Let’s get on to your last book, which you’ve chosen because it best expresses outrage about what happened: “Griftopia” by Matt Taibbi.

Matt Taibbi is the poet laureate of vitriol. There is no one better to capture the gestalt of the country’s angst, fury, and anger, and how upset people are that, essentially, these banks blew themselves up, and then managed to twist Congress’s arm to give them billions of dollars, much of which, by the way, has not been repaid. Every time I see some idiot say all the TARP [Troubled Asset Relief Program] and bailouts have been repaid, it’s nonsense. Even if you count all the Citigroup stock, all the Bank of America stock and the GM stock – none of which you can really sell because you’ll crush the stock price – we’re not back to break-even. We still have massive liabilities thanks to the huge losses at Freddie [Mac] and Fannie [Mae] and the losses at AIG. And anyway, who undertakes a trillion dollars’ worth of risk in order to break even?

Let’s go on to Michael Lewis’s book, “The Big Short.”

Michael Lewis, to me, is the preeminent narrator [of this crisis]. He is the guy who constructs the story better than anybody else. He tells the narrative in just an utterly fascinating and delightful way. I have a review of “The Big Short” that I haven’t published yet, because it’s too profane. There’s a story in there of a fund manager who starts out as an archconservative, and ends up, at the end of the crisis, as this staunch liberal. That’s because he sees the entire subprime, securitisation thing as nothing more than Wall Street finally figuring how to extract profit from the poor. There’s a whole section of the book where he rails about it being an attempt to “fuck the poor.”
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/09/the_cau ... al_crisis/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

8-)
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Re: The Causes...

Post by BDKJMU »

This guy is wrong on the banks. He says the $ hasn't been repaid, then lists a bunch of non banks that have't repaid the $- GM, Fanie, Freddie, AIG. :roll:

As far as the banks:
-Many of them were coerced into taking the TARP $.
-Of the top 10 banks in terms of TARP funds, all have repaid TARP in full + interest.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Causes...

Post by death dealer »

The last sentence really sums it up. :kisswink:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote:This guy is wrong on the banks. He says the $ hasn't been repaid, then lists a bunch of non banks that have't repaid the $- GM, Fanie, Freddie, AIG. :roll:

As far as the banks:
-Many of them were coerced into taking the TARP $.
-Of the top 10 banks in terms of TARP funds, all have repaid TARP in full + interest.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm guessing he was referring to GM's financial wing. As for F&F and AIG, their bailouts were directly connected to and at the request of the banks. You can't unravel that shit. Swing and a miss.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Ivytalk »

Phil? Phil Connors? :mrgreen:

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Re: The Causes...

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Ivytalk wrote:Phil? Phil Connors? :mrgreen:

It's Groundhog Day in the Land of Kalm. Again. :coffee:
:kisswink:
Hey, I will gladly lay down my sword when the AynRandPaulRyanRonaldReaganAlanGreenspanGroverNorquistObjectivistFreeMarketeerDeregulatoryRationalMarket - tards are ready to lay down there's. Until then, I reserve the right to continue posting mostly boring, mostly unchallenged expert opinions on reality. :butt:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
BDKJMU wrote:This guy is wrong on the banks. He says the $ hasn't been repaid, then lists a bunch of non banks that have't repaid the $- GM, Fanie, Freddie, AIG. :roll:

As far as the banks:
-Many of them were coerced into taking the TARP $.
-Of the top 10 banks in terms of TARP funds, all have repaid TARP in full + interest.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm guessing he was referring to GM's financial wing. As for F&F and AIG, their bailouts were directly connected to and at the request of the banks. You can't unravel that shit. Swing and a miss.
So now its the banks fault that F&F and AIG got bailed out and didn't pay it back? :lol:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
I'm guessing he was referring to GM's financial wing. As for F&F and AIG, their bailouts were directly connected to and at the request of the banks. You can't unravel that shit. Swing and a miss.
So now its the banks fault that F&F and AIG got bailed out and didn't pay it back? :lol:
Wow, you really need to go read up on this a little bit more. :ohno:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
So now its the banks fault that F&F and AIG got bailed out and didn't pay it back? :lol:
Wow, you really need to go read up on this a little bit more. :ohno:
You're missing my point. As usual.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
Wow, you really need to go read up on this a little bit more. :ohno:
You're missing my point. As usual.
No, I get your point...as usual. :coffee:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
You're missing my point. As usual.
No, I get your point...as usual. :coffee:
Umm......no.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Vidav »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
No, I get your point...as usual. :coffee:
Umm......no.
:coffee:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Ivytalk »

kalm wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:Phil? Phil Connors? :mrgreen:

It's Groundhog Day in the Land of Kalm. Again. :coffee:
:kisswink:
Hey, I will gladly lay down my sword when the AynRandPaulRyanRonaldReaganAlanGreenspanGroverNorquistObjectivistFreeMarketeerDeregulatoryRationalMarket - tards are ready to lay down there's. Until then, I reserve the right to continue posting mostly boring, mostly unchallenged expert opinions on reality. :butt:
Shamelessly cribbed from the likes of Matt Taibbi! :blah: :fuel: :jack: :mrgreen:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Baldy »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
I'm guessing he was referring to GM's financial wing. As for F&F and AIG, their bailouts were directly connected to and at the request of the banks. You can't unravel that shit. Swing and a miss.
So now its the banks fault that F&F and AIG got bailed out and didn't pay it back? :lol:
Silly rabbit, don't you know the banks are at fault for everything from the Crusades to Global Warming? :dunce:

The fact that Fannie and Freddie are the pet projects of the radical hard core Congressional "progressives" and AIG is/was the default insurance company for Fannie and Freddie have absolutely nothing to do with it. :tothehand:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
So now its the banks fault that F&F and AIG got bailed out and didn't pay it back? :lol:
Silly rabbit, don't you know the banks are at fault for everything from the Crusades to Global Warming? :dunce:

The fact that Fannie and Freddie are the pet projects of the radical hard core Congressional "progressives" and AIG is/was the default insurance company for Fannie and Freddie have absolutely nothing to do with it. :tothehand:
Progressives you say?
"Certainly there is a lot of debate today about the housing GSEs, but I think it is telling that there is strong bipartisan support for maintaining the GSE model in housing. There is not much support for the idea of removing the GSE charters from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. And I think it’s clear why. The housing GSEs have made an important contribution to homeownership and the housing finance system. We have a much more liquid and stable housing finance system than we would have without the GSEs. And making homeownership more accessible and affordable is a policy goal I believe conservatives should embrace. Millions of people have entered the middle class through building wealth in their homes, and there is a lot of evidence that homeownership contributes to stable families and communities. These are results I think conservatives should embrace and want to extend as widely as possible. So while we need to improve the regulation of the GSEs, I would be very cautious about fundamentally changing their role or the model itself."

- Newt Gingrich, 2007

"More and more people own their homes in America today. Two-thirds of all Americans own their homes, yet we have a problem here in America because few than half of the Hispanics and half the African Americans own the home. That's a homeownership gap. It's a -- it's a gap that we've got to work together to close for the good of our country, for the sake of a more hopeful future.

We've got to work to knock down the barriers that have created a homeownership gap.

I set an ambitious goal. It's one that I believe we can achieve. It's a clear goal, that by the end of this decade we'll increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million families. (Applause) … And it's going to require a strong commitment from those of you involved in the housing industry…

Freddie Mae -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- I see the heads who are here; I want to thank you all for coming -- (laughter) -- have committed to provide more money for lenders. They've committed to help meet the shortage of capital available for minority home buyers.

Fannie Mae recently announced a $50 million program to develop 600 homes for the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. Franklin [Raines], I appreciate that commitment. They also announced $12.7 million investment in a condominium project in Harlem. It's the beginnings of a series of initiatives to help meet the goal of 5.5 million families. Franklin told me at the meeting where we kicked this office, he said, I promise you we will help, and he has, like many others in this room have done.

Freddie Mac recently began 25 initiatives around the country to dismantle barriers and create greater opportunities for homeownership. One of the programs is designed to help deserving families who have bad credit histories to qualify for homeownership loans. …"

- George W. Bush, 2002
:lol:

BTW, how many banks failed to pass the CRA tests? How many were penalized?

As I've stated before, F&F were a problem and one part of the cause. But the securitization of the loans is what drove us off the cliff. A number of Wall Street and banking insiders and pundits from Nomi Prins to Ritholtz to Dylan Ratigan have stated as much. It's because Wall Street gets to write the regulations and there's a revolving door between government regulatory agencies and the private sector. If Wall Street was so smart, why didn't they complain about about the yoke of government oppression when it was happening back in the late 90's and early 2000's? Oddly enough it took the Senate's #1 progressive, Bernie Sanders, joining forces with one of the few real conservatives left, Ron Paul, to write legislation to finally audit F&F.

I know you guys really want this story to be wrapped up nicely with a little "it was the all the progressives and poor people's fault" bow on the top but it simply does not fly. It was a complex set of circumstances created by Presidents and legislators from both parties.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Ivytalk »

Hey, kalm, my wife and I are having a housewarming party on Saturday for our new neighbors, Joe and Mary Corporation. They're wonderful people! Wanna come? 8-)
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

Ivytalk wrote:Hey, kalm, my wife and I are having a housewarming party on Saturday for our new neighbors, Joe and Mary Corporation. They're wonderful people! Wanna come? 8-)
:lol:

I'll bring the dip.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Ivytalk »

kalm wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:Hey, kalm, my wife and I are having a housewarming party on Saturday for our new neighbors, Joe and Mary Corporation. They're wonderful people! Wanna come? 8-)
:lol:

I'll bring the dip.
Great! You can also meet our old Delaware friends, Stan and Juanita Llc. Never learned how to pronounce their name, and they're very hard to pin down.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

Ivytalk wrote:
kalm wrote:
:lol:

I'll bring the dip.
Great! You can also meet our old Delaware friends, Stan and Juanita Llc. Never learned how to pronounce their name, and they're very hard to pin down.
Sounds terrific. Are cardigans required?
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Re: The Causes...

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote:I know you guys really want this story to be wrapped up nicely with a little "it was the all the progressives and poor people's fault" bow on the top but it simply does not fly. It was a complex set of circumstances created by Presidents and legislators from both parties.
So on one hand you acknowledge that the recession was a complex set of circumstances with the fault lying at the feet of so many different people that it's impossible to pin it down to one group or one idealogy, and then on the other hand you post time and time again about how Wall Street and banks were solely to blame. I don't know how you manage to type a post without the other half of your schizophenitic (sp) brain trying to make your hand hit the backspace bar and delete what you just wrote. :rofl:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:I know you guys really want this story to be wrapped up nicely with a little "it was the all the progressives and poor people's fault" bow on the top but it simply does not fly. It was a complex set of circumstances created by Presidents and legislators from both parties.
So on one hand you acknowledge that the recession was a complex set of circumstances with the fault lying at the feet of so many different people that it's impossible to pin it down to one group or one idealogy, and then on the other hand you post time and time again about how Wall Street and banks were solely to blame. I don't know how you manage to type a post without the other half of your schizophenitic (sp) brain trying to make your hand hit the backspace bar and delete what you just wrote. :rofl:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:I know you guys really want this story to be wrapped up nicely with a little "it was the all the progressives and poor people's fault" bow on the top but it simply does not fly. It was a complex set of circumstances created by Presidents and legislators from both parties.
So on one hand you acknowledge that the recession was a complex set of circumstances with the fault lying at the feet of so many different people that it's impossible to pin it down to one group or one idealogy, and then on the other hand you post time and time again about how Wall Street and banks were solely to blame. I don't know how you manage to type a post without the other half of your schizophenitic (sp) brain trying to make your hand hit the backspace bar and delete what you just wrote. :rofl:
Wall Street is to blame for the severity of the recession. An ideology of deregulation followed by players from both parties contributed. Wall Street has supported both parties.

I can see that walking and chewing gum is hard for you.

Worst independent...ever. :dunce:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
So on one hand you acknowledge that the recession was a complex set of circumstances with the fault lying at the feet of so many different people that it's impossible to pin it down to one group or one idealogy, and then on the other hand you post time and time again about how Wall Street and banks were solely to blame. I don't know how you manage to type a post without the other half of your schizophenitic (sp) brain trying to make your hand hit the backspace bar and delete what you just wrote. :rofl:
Wall Street is to blame for the severity of the recession. An ideology of deregulation followed by players from both parties contributed. Wall Street has supported both parties.

I can see that walking and chewing gum is hard for you.

Worst independent...ever. :dunce:
It's not walking and chewing gum. That's a bad analogy. What you're doing is akin to walking forward with your one foot and walking backwards with your other foot - you're going in two different directions at the same time. That is hard to do. You do want to solely blame Wall Street for everything and you want to admit that factually, they were just one part (granted a significant part) in a country-wide failure that led to both the onset of the recession and the severity of it. Heck, I even contributed to it by spending more than I should've before that time. Me and 300 million other Americans did as well. I'd say I'm sorry but it's hard to tell which Kalm you're talking to - the rational one or the irrational one.
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Re: The Causes...

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
Wall Street is to blame for the severity of the recession. An ideology of deregulation followed by players from both parties contributed. Wall Street has supported both parties.

I can see that walking and chewing gum is hard for you.

Worst independent...ever. :dunce:
It's not walking and chewing gum. That's a bad analogy. What you're doing is akin to walking forward with your one foot and walking backwards with your other foot - you're going in two different directions at the same time. That is hard to do. You do want to solely blame Wall Street for everything and you want to admit that factually, they were just one part (granted a significant part) in a country-wide failure that led to both the onset of the recession and the severity of it. Heck, I even contributed to it by spending more than I should've before that time. Me and 300 million other Americans did as well. I'd say I'm sorry but it's hard to tell which Kalm you're talking to - the rational one or the irrational one.
So you pretty much agree with me, you just don't want to. I am sorry. :lol:
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Re: The Causes...

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: BTW, how many banks failed to pass the CRA tests? How many were penalized?

As I've stated before, F&F were a problem and one part of the cause. But the securitization of the loans is what drove us off the cliff. A number of Wall Street and banking insiders and pundits from Nomi Prins to Ritholtz to Dylan Ratigan have stated as much. It's because Wall Street gets to write the regulations and there's a revolving door between government regulatory agencies and the private sector. If Wall Street was so smart, why didn't they complain about about the yoke of government oppression when it was happening back in the late 90's and early 2000's? Oddly enough it took the Senate's #1 progressive, Bernie Sanders, joining forces with one of the few real conservatives left, Ron Paul, to write legislation to finally audit F&F.

I know you guys really want this story to be wrapped up nicely with a little "it was the all the progressives and poor people's fault" bow on the top but it simply does not fly. It was a complex set of circumstances created by Presidents and legislators from both parties.
:rofl:

You are right about one thing...the securitization of the loans is what drove us off the cliff, but what you don't seem to realize is that Ginnie Mae and Freddie Mac are the ones who invented the wonderful idea of securitizing those loans to begin with. All in the name of "affordable housing". :roll:

Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

F&F have been audited, and government regulators have gone before Congress to testify about F&F cooking the books, only to be shot down by the 'progressives" in Congress defending their sacred cows at Fannie and Freddie.

This is probably the 100th time I've posted this video, but is sheds so much light on the cockroaches who are the most responsible.

[youtube][/youtube]
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